Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
What would it take to help Ennis be OK about himself?
Clyde-B:
I guess what I think of John Twist depends on my assumptions about how he go to be such an SOB.
I always suspected that he hated Jack's dreaming because he had once been a dreamer himself, and life had hammered him so hard that there was no hope left in him and he was actually afraid to dream anymore. Lightning Flat looks like a place so desolate that it could just suck the life right out of you. I wonder why such a sweet woman as Jack's mother ever married him. Was it her only choice, or had things at one time been different?
The one thing I liked about Lightning Flat, that Ennis never knew, was that it looked almost as remote and uncivilized as Brokeback, and maybe they would have actually have had a chance there.
loneleeb3:
--- Quote ---and maybe they would have actually have had a chance there.
--- End quote ---
Dang it Clyde! There go the tears again!
What a thought! More missed opportunity.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on June 07, 2007, 04:15:29 pm ---You missed your calling. Shoulda been a lawyer. ... (That's actually s'posed to be a compliment.)
--- End quote ---
S'alright, Jeff! My dad always used to say the same thing ... ::)
--- Quote --- Forgive me if I've missed something in your argument, but my impression is that your argument rests on the bare bones of dialogue alone without also taking into account delivery, little gestures like spitting into the cup, milieu--that sort of stuff.
--- End quote ---
Oh, then you have missed something in my argument. For instance, his appearance to me as a genuine grieving father (if also a mean one) rests on performance, not dialogue. Again, gestures like spitting in a cup indicate disdain, which I do not claim he lacks.
--- Quote ---I'm very happy for your aunt and her partner--wish 'em a Happy Birthday and offer 'em a shot of whiskey for me!-
--- End quote ---
Thanks. With them, it will be a martini -- and God help you if you want vermouth in yours! :laugh:
--- Quote ----but for me your description of their experience, rather than lending credence to your argument, instead suggests a whole slew of questions on its own (relative to the experience/perception of lesbians compared to the experience/perception of gay men) that go far beyond the purview of this thread, and I wonder whether their experience--not to discount it in the least--bears any more than a superficial relevance to Brokeback Mountain.
--- End quote ---
Yes, we could have (and have had!) a whole 'nother discussion about experience/perception of lesbians vs. that of gay men. I'm not meaning to draw an exact parallel. My only point was that people can surprise you, that our assumptions about rural Middle-American backwaters don't always hold true. Sure, lesbians might find easier acceptance (if that's what you're suggesting), but the fact that, as far as I know, my aunt and her partner have enjoyed more or less total acceptance is what pleases me.
--- Quote ---Probably nothing, but how does that prove he isn't homophobic?
--- End quote ---
Well, at the very least it shows that if he IS homophobic he's at least discrete or tactful or something, to go through that whole speech without one mention of sexuality. My point, though, was that the scene is more ambiguous than you're giving it credit for.
--- Quote ---Possible, too, that if Jack had ever brought those plans to fruition, that John Twist would have put up with the situation out of self-interest (getting his property improved)--which I distinguish from actually accepting the situation.
--- End quote ---
Well, that seems a mite closer to my version than your earlier use of the term "verbal gay bashing." I can probably put up with "put up with." Again, I'm certainly not suggesting he would have given the heartwarming keynote toast at Jack and Ennis' wedding.
--- Quote ---Let's not forget, too, that John Twist wasn't the only one waiting for Jack back on the home place. His dear mother was there, too.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I'd never forget that! :) But it's the stud duck who calls the shots.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: ineedcrayons on June 07, 2007, 06:20:11 pm ---Thanks. With them, it will be a martini -- and God help you if you want vermouth in yours! :laugh:
--- End quote ---
"Very dry," hunh? ;D
--- Quote ---Well, that seems a mite closer to my version than your earlier use of the term "verbal gay bashing." I can probably put up with "put up with." Again, I'm certainly not suggesting he would have given the heartwarming keynote toast at Jack and Ennis' wedding.
--- End quote ---
Wasn't intended to be. I'm not backing away from the "verbal gay bashing" I think he gives Ennis. Just that I also see him as potentially willfully turning a blind eye and putting up with it out of self-interest. Who knows but what maybe his attitude would have given a bit if Jack's verbal musings had come to pass. But they didn't and I'm not backing off a bit from how I see John Twist in "what actually happened."
I don't see a bit of grief in John Twist. Just bitterness. And that's bitterness generally, not specifically over Jack's death.
Oh, I'd never forget that! :) But it's the stud duck who calls the shots.
[/quote]
loneleeb3:
--- Quote ---I don't see a bit of grief in John Twist. Just bitterness. And that's bitterness generally, not specifically over Jack's death.
--- End quote ---
Amen!
He's mad he lost his sometimes ranch hand!
You can tell Mrs Twist is heartbroken but not allowed to grieve.
SHe is very careful about what she says. Her eyes seem to be always watching OMT to see if she has done or said somthing wrong!
She musta had a strong influence over jack at one time. He sure as hell didn't get his kindness and easy ways from his father!
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