Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
what's the point of the job switch?
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 08, 2006, 08:24:50 am ---To me, that seems too specific an interpretation of an open-ended remark. It assumes more knowledge of Ennis' viewpoint than I feel like I have.
--- End quote ---
I really ought to let Mark argue this one with you, Katherine ( ;) ), but I hope you might come back and explain a bit more about what you mean by "It assumes more knowledge of Ennis's viewpoint." I'm not clear on your meaning here.
I haven't found Ennis's comment to be open-ended at all. On the contrary, to me it's very specific, in light of my understanding, from interpreting the evidence as I see it. Of course we don't know specifically what Ennis has heard that they have in Mexico for "boys" like Jack. But my interpretation is that Ennis knows that Jack likes to get fucked (because that's what he and Jack do), and he's heard that "boys like Jack" can get fucked in Mexico. And calling Jack a "boy" is a definite disparagement in this context, coming out of Ennis's anger. Jack is a "boy" because getting fucked is for "boys"--not men--and Jack likes to get fucked.
serious crayons:
Well, this is either the exact thing or pretty close to the thing that you and I have argued about before, Jeff. And as I recall, I lost the last time. But what the hell, I'm always up for an argument.
I do agree with this:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 08, 2006, 09:46:46 am ---And calling Jack a "boy" is a definite disparagement in this context, coming out of Ennis's anger.
--- End quote ---
Ennis is angry, and "boy" is disparaging, and "boys like you" (as opposed to "us") can be read as distinguishing Jack from Ennis in some way.
But I am still reluctant to go along with the idea that Ennis is consciously speaking in code, that boy and man refer to sexual positions, that Ennis equates receiving with queerness but does not attach a stigma to delivering. Of course you know much more about gay culture than I do, and if someone you know in real life said something like that perhaps the meaning would be clear to everybody. But you also know much more about it than Ennis does. He knows basically nothing outside of his private experiences with Jack (that he even has heard what they have in Mexico stretches credulity a bit).
Jeff, I remember your pointing out the larger, male-culture stigma about "receiving," and I get that. But if you ask me, Ennis considers himself to have crossed a pretty big line from the get-go. If he's willing to go there, who knows what else he might do. Or at least think. So what Ennis thinks about their relationship, to what extent he considers his and Jack's sexuality different -- all those issues are hazier to me than they are to you guys. Partly for the obvious reasons, I guess, but also partly because you're making what I consider an interpretive leap. In my mind, Ennis is sort of feeling his way along in the relationship, not being guided by any external norms but just by whatever unfolds between them, trying not to think too much about what it all implies.
Also, if I understand correctly, your interpretation suggests that Ennis feels a certain amount of contempt for Jack (Jack is a "boy," Ennis is a "man," Jack is "queer," Ennis prides himself on not being), and aside from this one remark I see no other sign anywhere in the movie that he does.
Now I steel myself for the reply that I couldn't possibly know anything about this. And it's true that my knowledge is inevitably limited. But Jeff, I also think your interpretation is colored by the way you see the whole scene (Mark, I don't know how you feel about this): that Ennis' breakdown is triggered by having to confront the truth about his sexuality. In that context, your reading of that line makes sense; Ennis' threat is a desperate attempt to separate himself from Jack in that respect. And I'm not saying that interpretation is "wrong" -- obviously it works for you.
But if you see the scene the way I do, which is that Ennis breaks down because he's afraid of losing Jack and can no longer stand the strain their relationship puts on him, then the Mexico remark becomes less significant. It's Ennis lashing angrily out at Jack because that's what Ennis does when he gets upset. And also to deflect the blame for canceling the August trip.
Sorry to yammer on. I told myself a few days ago I was going to start keeping my posts more brief, and until now I was doing pretty well with it.
Jeff Wrangler:
Hey, Katherine,
Well, we have beaten a lot of this at least to a stand-still if not to death, and I'm not going to rehearse that again. I certainly did't consider that I had "won" and you had "lost" anything, just that we had expressed our respective opinions to the stand-still and had to agree to disagree because we're both sticking to our stories.
There certainly is contempt in the "boys like you" comment, but Ennis is clearly very angry, I don't for a minute believe he's really contemptuous of Jack, but it's quite possible that in his anger he's projecting some of his own internally-homophobic self-contempt onto poor Jack.
--- Quote ---(that he even has heard what they have in Mexico stretches credulity a bit).
--- End quote ---
Well, but nevertheless he has heard it. We have to accept it because it's a given of the plot. I personally don't find it a "credulity-stretcher" because men do talk, make off-color jokes--and reinforce their own self-concept as "straight" by all kinds of homophobic jokes and remarks. Ennis has lived his whole life among the aggressive macho types who do this sort of thing. It's immature in my way of thinking, but then I'm an overly educated effete urban Northeastern homosexual. ;D What stretches my credulity is that Jack's passion could endure twenty years the way it does (see my comments on the "Would you have lasted 20 years" thread), but that's another given of the plot, that it has.
Of course I'm making "an interpretive leap," but don't you think we all are, that anyone who even bothers trying to interpret this movie takes a leap of some kind at some point? The question is just where or over what issues we take the leap. You and I just take different leaps.
--- Quote ---But if you see the scene the way I do, which is that Ennis breaks down because he's afraid of losing Jack and can no longer stand the strain their relationship puts on him, then the Mexico remark becomes less significant. It's Ennis lashing angrily out at Jack because that's what Ennis does when he gets upset. And also to deflect the blame for canceling the August trip.
--- End quote ---
I think I have said elsewhere that I don't dispute or disagree with these points--at least, I tried to convey that somewhere further up the line here. I just see this whole confrontation, and what is going on inside Ennis, as more complex than you do. Yes, he's afraid of losing Jack and yes, he can't stand the strain any longer, but that's not all that's going on here. But I think I've said all I have to say on that subject. This is where we take the different leaps. You clearly see what is going on inside Ennis in this scene as simpler than I do.
Oddly enough, perhaps, I could buy into your intrepretation here with respect to the Ennis of the original story, who clearly is more in touch with his feelings, more self-aware, than the Ennis we are presented with in the film--at least as I see it.
serious crayons:
Jeff, I agree with most of what you said here. And it's true we will never come to a concensus, but oh well. I still enjoy debating. Don't take offense at my won/lost remark, but as I recall, last time I eventually conceded on the questions surrounding delivering and receiving, admitting that they're outside my area of expertise.
The one thing I don't agree with is your characterizing my version of Ennis' thoughts during the scene as "simpler." I think of them as pretty complex, and I would even admit that there is an element of what you think is the main thing. And you admit there's an element of what I think. So perhaps we actually almost agree, but just place the emphasis differently.
So if you're sick of this one, please help me think of another issue to argue about.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 08, 2006, 01:43:20 pm ---Jeff, I agree with most of what you said here. And it's true we will never come to a concensus, but oh well. I still enjoy debating. Don't take offense at my won/lost remark, but as I recall, last time I eventually conceded on the questions surrounding delivering and receiving, admitting that they're outside my area of expertise.
The one thing I don't agree with is your characterizing my version of Ennis' thoughts during the scene as "simpler." I think of them as pretty complex, and I would even admit that there is an element of what you think is the main thing. And you admit there's an element of what I think. So perhaps we actually almost agree, but just place the emphasis differently.
So if you're sick of this one, please help me think of another issue to argue about.
--- End quote ---
Oh, none taken, I was just concerned. I just felt that we've both stated our views about as fully as we can and hated to think that you felt you'd "lost" and I'd "won."
Maybe we are just disagreeing over emphasis from different perspectives. As to something else to debate, I'll have to get back to you on that! :)
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