what's the point of the job switch?

[Aussie Chris]

Personally I'd go so far as to say I feel it can be more "manly" "to receive" rather than "to give," but it's Ennis whose been the subject of the discussion, and for a self-deceiving internalized homophobe who clings like a drowning man to his own notion of his "straightness," I can't believe versatility is in the picture.

There's no doubt in my mind that you are right on the whole Jeff, and I was fully keeping Ennis in mind when I was thinking of his "versitility".  So much of this discussion is centred on our projected thoughts and experiences, applying them to Ennis like a white-wash and calling it a complete work of art.  I agree that Ennis' homophobia would dominate much of what he thought was ok and not ok.  But as someone here also said, they couldn't imagine someone as homophobic as Ennis even giving head.  Isn't this the whole point though?  Everything about Ennis' external appearance is straight except when he is with Jack.  Only with Jack do all the "rules" no longer apply.  And we're talking about a 20 year affair here.  I also find it hard to believe that Ennis remained on top all those years, even for one so stoic.

[TJ]

Oh, I think that Ennis was a "submissive top" on occasion. And, from the way that I read, meaning continue to read, what Annie Proulx wrote in the Motel Siesta scene, when the guys finally get to talking, Jack had just topped Ennis with Ennis riding on the "the horse," --<<< that is from Jack's comment about riding horseback so much.

[serious crayons]

I agree that Ennis' homophobia would dominate much of what he thought was ok and not ok.  But as someone here also said, they couldn't imagine someone as homophobic as Ennis even giving head.  Isn't this the whole point though?  Everything about Ennis' external appearance is straight except when he is with Jack.  Only with Jack do all the "rules" no longer apply.  And we're talking about a 20 year affair here.

Chris, this opinion is the one I had going into this discussion: that it's hard to predict exactly WHAT Ennis might do or not do because the very fact that he's having sex with a man is so foreign for him in the first place. To say he would never in a million years switch positions -- well, he never in a million years would have done ANY of this if it weren't for Jack (note in case this is unclear: I'm not saying Ennis wouldn't still be gay without Jack, only that he probably never would have acted on it), so how can you draw a line? He's already breaking his own taboos left and right.

Anyway, I'm glad to see there's some diversity of viewpoints even among the experts. Jeff, I understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense, too. All I was hoping for was support for the contention that there's at least a bit of room for disagreement.

One argument I often see that I DO object to, though, is one that goes something like, Well, we all know Ennis is homophobic so therefore he would never do this or that or, Ennis wouldn't be able to handle it if he knew Jack were doing this or that. What goes on in Ennis' mind for 20 years seems very nebulous to me. Clearly there's both a homophobic side and a loving Jack side, but how those opposing feelings coexist is a matter of pure conjecture. My view is that for most of the time he is able to compartmentalize these emotions, acknowleging each individually but not allowing himself to examine the contradiction too closely, and so manages to keep them in a tenuous balance. But that causes a lot of stress. His "I can't stand it no more" in the final argument is him finally breaking down under the strain.

That's one reason I also don't buy the argument that Ennis realizes he loves Jack only after Jack is dead. If he didn't know he loved him, the balance would have fallen apart long ago. What would keep the homophobia in check? Why would he go to all that risk and bother for all those years?

[Aussie Chris]

Chris, this opinion is the one I had going into this discussion: that it's hard to predict exactly WHAT Ennis might do or not do because the very fact that he's having sex with a man is so foreign for him in the first place. To say he would never in a million years switch positions -- well, he never in a million years would have done ANY of this if it weren't for Jack (note in case this is unclear: I'm not saying Ennis wouldn't still be gay without Jack, only that he probably never would have acted on it), so how can you draw a line? He's already breaking his own taboos left and right.

*Sigh*  So I was slow off the mark...  again!

[Jeff Wrangler]

And there are lots of ways to spice things up, even if each partner always takes the same role--and trust gay men to find them! 

But can we agree that gay men have not cornered the market on this? I think *all* people have the potential to spice things up...trouble is, way too many don't bother or have other reasons for not figuring it out....

L

I won't dispute the point, I'm just not equipped to comment on something I have no experience of.   

And looking back over my own last post, it would have more accurately conveyed what I was trying to say to have written, "Ennis is a lot like these men," rather than, "these men are a lot like Ennis."

[Jeff Wrangler]

Anyway, I'm glad to see there's some diversity of viewpoints even among the experts. Jeff, I understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense, too. All I was hoping for was support for the contention that there's at least a bit of room for disagreement.

Please don't call me an "expert." That makes me very uncomfortable. I write only from my own life experience and my close reading of the Annie Proulx text, which I use to complement my viewing of the film, and, to a lesser extent, vice versa.

One argument I often see that I DO object to, though, is one that goes something like, Well, we all know Ennis is homophobic so therefore he would never do this or that or, Ennis wouldn't be able to handle it if he knew Jack were doing this or that. What goes on in Ennis' mind for 20 years seems very nebulous to me. Clearly there's both a homophobic side and a loving Jack side, but how those opposing feelings coexist is a matter of pure conjecture. My view is that for most of the time he is able to compartmentalize these emotions, acknowleging each individually but not allowing himself to examine the contradiction too closely, and so manages to keep them in a tenuous balance. But that causes a lot of stress. His "I can't stand it no more" in the final argument is him finally breaking down under the strain.

I'm not sure I'm following your argument here--not disputing it, just not sure I'm following your reasoning. I agree Ennis compartmentalizes his life. (In fact, for me, one of the more discomfiting things about this movie is that it has made me realize how much of a tendency I have to compartmentalize my own life.) But I've understood the confrontation scene this way: Jack's admission that he's been to Mexico forces the issue--forces Ennis to face the compartmentalization that he's been doing for nearly 20 years. He can't ignore, deny, or compartmentalize his emotions any longer, and he cracks under the strain, lashing out at Jack and collapsing in a heap. This is not to say the pressure hasn't been building for years, just that Jack's revelation is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

That's one reason I also don't buy the argument that Ennis realizes he loves Jack only after Jack is dead. If he didn't know he loved him, the balance would have fallen apart long ago. What would keep the homophobia in check? Why would he go to all that risk and bother for all those years?

Well, clearly Ennis is in touch with the fact that Jack is the best friend he's ever had. I think he also keeps telling himself that he and Jack have this "one-shot" deal going on--another factor in his collapse is being forced to face up to the fact that it hasn't been a one-shot thing for Jack, that Jack has been having sex with other guys. As for my conviction that Ennis isn't really cognizant that he loves Jack until Jack is dead, that's grounded in Diana Ossana's comment, in her essay in Story to Screenplay, about Ennis not being in touch with his feelings. I'm sorry I can't quote it, as I don't have the book with me here at work.

Taken by itself, it's perfectly possible for Jack's comment about the time Ennis spends on horseback to mean that those saddle muscles make Ennis just as good a "fuckee" as a "fucker." I personally don't accept that interpretation because Annie Proulx's text has only given us Ennis fucking Jack, in what we know as "the first tent scene."

[serious crayons]

*Sigh*  So I was slow off the mark...  again!

No no no, Chris!!! I'm not staking claim to the idea. Just that my opinion was being disputed. So I just meant, thanks for agreeing!

[serious crayons]

Please don't call me an "expert." That makes me very uncomfortable. I write only from my own life experience and my close reading of the Annie Proulx text, which I use to complement my viewing of the film, and, to a lesser extent, vice versa.

I was using the term loosely and sort of flippantly to refer to you and the other men here, who have direct experience with these matters, as compared to the women, who mostly have to guess or extrapolate from our own dissimilar experiences.

But I've understood the confrontation scene this way: Jack's admission that he's been to Mexico forces the issue--forces Ennis to face the compartmentalization that he's been doing for nearly 20 years. He can't ignore, deny, or compartmentalize his emotions any longer, and he cracks under the strain, lashing out at Jack and collapsing in a heap. This is not to say the pressure hasn't been building for years, just that Jack's revelation is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

Jeff, you have a really different take on that scene than I have, if you believe that what triggers Ennis' collapse is the revelation that Jack's been to Mexico (and therefore is unequivocally gay). Mine is that the the trigger is his fear over the implicit threat of abandonment in Jack's speech. As for Mexico I assume, based on how quickly Ennis guessed that Jack had been there, that he'd suspected that for a while.

Wait. On second thought, I agree the concept does bring to the fore the two opposing thoughts -- homophobia and love (mainly, the implicit threat of losing it) -- so perhaps it does play a part. But I don't think Mexico, in and of itself, is the main problem for Ennis.

Is that making any sense? I'm four minutes late to do a phone interview, so I'm kind of rushing, but I am interested in this topic and would be glad to get back to it if you wish.

Well, clearly Ennis is in touch with the fact that Jack is the best friend he's ever had. I think he also keeps telling himself that he and Jack have this "one-shot" deal going on--another factor in his collapse is being forced to face up to the fact that it hasn't been a one-shot thing for Jack, that Jack has been having sex with other guys. As for my conviction that Ennis isn't really cognizant that he loves Jack until Jack is dead, that's grounded in Diana Ossana's comment, in her essay in Story to Screenplay, about Ennis not being in touch with his feelings. I'm sorry I can't quote it, as I don't have the book with me here at work.

I agree that Ennis is not in touch with his feelings prior to the summer of '63, because he forces himself to remain out of touch. After that, it just doesn't make sense, so if that's what Diana is referring to I'll have to respectfully disagree. How would your scenario actually work in his head? Confused as he is, could anyone really have a 20-year relationship like this and NOT recognizes it as love, whether or not he uses that actual word to explain it to himself? If he continues to call it "this thing," it's still love.

For that matter, I go so far as to think that over 20 years it has also dawned on him that he is gay, because I can't imagine him failing to notice that.

Taken by itself, it's perfectly possible for Jack's comment about the time Ennis spends on horseback to mean that those saddle muscles make Ennis just as good a "fuckee" as a "fucker."

Regarding both this and the "riding bulls" remark, I took them less literally. I just figured Annie used these metaphors because they fit handily into the context, matched the characters' typical colloquialisms, and would be readily understood by readers of all orientations. But I could be wrong.

[serious crayons]

Well, clearly Ennis is in touch with the fact that Jack is the best friend he's ever had. I think he also keeps telling himself that he and Jack have this "one-shot" deal going on--another factor in his collapse is being forced to face up to the fact that it hasn't been a one-shot thing for Jack, that Jack has been having sex with other guys. As for my conviction that Ennis isn't really cognizant that he loves Jack until Jack is dead, that's grounded in Diana Ossana's comment, in her essay in Story to Screenplay, about Ennis not being in touch with his feelings. I'm sorry I can't quote it, as I don't have the book with me here at work.

I agree that Ennis is not in touch with his feelings prior to the summer of '63, because he forces himself to remain out of touch. After that, it just doesn't make sense, so if that's what Diana is referring to I'll have to respectfully disagree. How would your scenario actually work in his head? Confused as he is, could anyone really have a 20-year relationship like this and NOT recognizes it as love, whether or not he uses that actual word to explain it to himself? If he continues to call it "this thing," it's still love.

For that matter, I go so far as to think that over 20 years it has also dawned on him that he is gay, because I can't imagine him failing to notice that.

Whew, got that pesky making-a-livin stuff out of the way for the time being so I can get back to concentrating on my real mission in life: analyzing this movie.

To clarify what I said above, I'm trying to put myself in Ennis' head. OK, I have this relationship with a man. I admire him and think he's funny. I really enjoy spending time with him. I can be myself when I'm with him, can confide in him, can feel comfortable with him in a way that I can't around anyone else. I'd rather be with him than anyone else in the world. He seems to feel the same way about me and that makes me happy. So far, so good: very close friend.

But also, I find him handsome, I think about him constantly, I pine for him when he's not around, my life feels empty when he's not in it, I wring it out imagining him, when I'm in bed with my wife I pretend she's him, when he says he's coming to visit I spend hours waiting at the window, when I do see him I can hardly wait to kiss him and have sex with him, his touch is electrifying, I am so overjoyed when I see him that I thank God for his presence and then tell him I just did so, I am willing to compromise my financial security and destroy my marriage in order to spend time with him, my physical passion for him is so great I can't trust myself to control it in public ... Now it feels like more than just a regular friendship.

So either we're differing over semantics or Ennis is an idiot, and I don't believe the latter. To me, it's easier to imagine him reasoning that, on the one hand, loving men is wrong and shameful, and on the other, I really love this guy. Yes, I realize there's an apparent conflict there, but this is a one-shot thing, a big exception to the rule, and as long as nobody else knows about it and I don't think too hard about the contradiction, everything will be OK.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Katherine,

OK, all this quoting with its coding is starting to confuse me. Let's see if I can respond without confusing myself!

No problem about the "expert" remark; it's forgotten.

Jeff, you have a really different take on that scene than I have, if you believe that what triggers Ennis' collapse is the revelation that Jack's been to Mexico (and therefore is unequivocally gay). Mine is that the the trigger is his fear over the implicit threat of abandonment in Jack's speech. As for Mexico I assume, based on how quickly Ennis guessed that Jack had been there, that he'd suspected that for a while.

Yes, I guess we do have a fundamental difference on this scene, and I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I will, however, agree that there is a fundamental threat in Jack's "wish I knew how to quit you" speech. And it's even plausible that Ennis has been suspecting that Jack has been going to Mexico, though it is Jack who brought up the subject, complaining about the cold.

But I don't think Mexico, in and of itself, is the main problem for Ennis.

Nor do I. The issue in my understanding, as I tried to explain previously, is what Jack's Mexico trips represent: Their relationship isn't a "one-shot deal," and Jack has been having sex with other guys. I'll even allow that some ordinary human jealousy that some other guys have been fucking his "boy" plays into Ennis's reaction.

But I remain convinced that this a very complex scene, that Ennis's reaction is complex, and that the main driving force for the violence of Ennis's reaction is his internalized homophobia. The revelation of Jack's trips to Mexico forces Ennis into a position where he can no longer maintain the "compartmentalization" of his life. It forces Ennis to deal with the fact that their relationship isn't what he has been telling himself for 20 years that it is, and Jack is gay. It forces Ennis to face reality, which threatens his self-concept (as "straight"), and he responds to this stress the way he has consistently responded to stress throughout the film, with violence or the threat of violence.

I agree that Ennis is not in touch with his feelings prior to the summer of '63, because he forces himself to remain out of touch. After that, it just doesn't make sense, so if that's what Diana is referring to I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Here is the sentence from Diana Ossana's essay in Story to Screenplay  (p. 146) that has been key in helping me to develop my understanding of this film, and of Ennis in particular:

"[Annie Proulx] and I spoke about Ennis and his stoicism, his background, his homophobic worldview, his inability to access his emotions."

No flippancy or disrespect intended but I really don't see how you can "respectfully disagree" with one of the individuals responsible for bringing Ennis to life on the screen. We can all formulate our own interpretations, but in the end the authoritative voices belong to Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, Ang Lee, and Heath Ledger.

How would your scenario actually work in his head? Confused as he is, could anyone really have a 20-year relationship like this and NOT recognizes it as love, whether or not he uses that actual word to explain it to himself? If he continues to call it "this thing," it's still love.

Yes, it is love. But does this mean Ennis is willing to face up to it? In my view, he continues to deny it until the crisis of Jack's death, of really losing Jack, breaks down his resistance and he can't deny it any more. And it's too late. That's his tragedy.

For that matter, I go so far as to think that over 20 years it has also dawned on him that he is gay, because I can't imagine him failing to notice that.

Again, noticing something and accepting it and facing up to it are two different things. You'll have to trust me on this one: Some of us gay men go through this, though I'll grant you it may not ordinarily take 20 years (though I've heard of some cases where it does even take a lot longer).

Regarding both this [my comment about Jack's remark about the time Ennis spends on horseback making it so good] and the "riding bulls" remark, I took them less literally. I just figured Annie used these metaphors because they fit handily into the context, matched the characters' typical colloquialisms, and would be readily understood by readers of all orientations. But I could be wrong.

Even if my more literal understanding is closer to what Annie Proulx meant, that doesn't make you "wrong." The "riding bulls" remark still, at base, means Jack has been having sex with other guys instead of just masturbating, like Ennis.

Jeff