The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
A question on religion
Kerry:
David, I would be very interested to hear what you think about the word "berdache." I understand it's viewed as a derogatory, insulting term by Native Americans. Did I read about that somewhere, or have I got that wrong?
Kerry:
--- Quote from: Daniel on June 22, 2007, 11:54:29 pm ---Well if you recall, St. Francis did not begin his spiritual devotion as a monk; he was the son of a merchant family in Venice, whom I think were either dyers or silk tailors or something like that. "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" is one of my favorite films - and St. Francis's actor is drop-dead gorgeous himself... He also looks very compelling in a habit. So its quite easy to imagine him as being gay.
--- End quote ---
The Franciscans are one of the four orders of mendicant friars (not monks) within the Catholic Church, the other three being Carmelite, Augustinian and Dominican. IMHO it is probably more likely that St Francis had a crush on St Claire, if anyone. Platonic, of course!!! ;) :)
Daniel:
It might be derogatory. I know it is a European word imposed upon the culture by those who first observed the phenomenon (early white settlers). It is a Persian word that means "kept boy" or "male prostitute", so it very well may be derogatory. I suppose much in the same way that "Indian" is derogatory. I think the word is still used in ethnographic circles to discuss the same phenomenon which occurs in multiple Native American tribes, but that there is no derogatory implications. Still, perhaps there is a need for a new word.
injest:
--- Quote from: David on June 22, 2007, 08:23:31 pm ---Hi Scott!
I meant to post this an hour ago but I keep getting pulled away from the computer.
Daniel did such a wonderful job of outlining the Native American attitudes of homosexuality, there's really not much I can add. :)
I remember my mother telling me about the "basket and bow" test, which sometimes would be given if a child was suspected of being a wink'te, the Lakota word for "half man" or "gay". The child would be instructed to walk into the middle of a ring encircling a basket and a bow. After the child entered the ring, it was set on fire. The child was then told to grab one object and quickly leave the ring. If the child was a male and grabbed the basket instead of the bow, this would prove the child was indeed a wink'te. I'm not sure if this test was used on girls. I suppose it could have been.
Wink'te were highly honored among the Sioux. They were considered holy and wise. They were a "bridge" between male and female; a perfect cosmic vibration that would insure balance and peace within the tribe. Wink'te were elevated to a near god like position in the Sioux tribes; their visions and medicine always trusted. Wink'te were considered a sacred gift from WakanTanka (God).
Many members on the Lakota side of my family have told me that in addition to Native American Wink'te, the Sioux also adopted non Native wink'te into their tribes. I have never seen any written evidence of this, but I was told this was done on several ocassions in my specific tribe. It's a shame these wonderful Sioux qualities and traditions were left out of our history books.
--- End quote ---
David I have a question.
I think I read somewhere ( ::) ) that wink'tes got 'married' to warriors in the tribe. Were the men that married them considered homosexual?
Would you (from todays' viewpoint) consider the warriors to be gay?
David In Indy:
--- Quote from: Kerry on June 23, 2007, 12:00:15 am ---David, I would be very interested to hear what you think about the word "berdache." I understand it's viewed as a derogatory, insulting term by Native Americans. Did I read about that somewhere, or have I got that wrong?
--- End quote ---
No, you're correct Kerry. Berdache is considered offensive, especially by gay Native Americans. I flinched a little when I read it in Daniel's post, but he was correct to use it in his message. Because it's a word used quite often, especially among white, Christian people. In fact, I think it was the Christian missionaries who first used that word. Most Sioux will use the word "wink'te" when referring to gay people. Other tribes have their own words. Wink'te literally means "half man" in Lakota.
Most Native people interpret the word berdache to mean "hermaphrodite" which obviously is totally inaccurate. I suppose the early missionaries didn't have any other word to use, so they picked that one. ???
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