Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

A question about the Final Argument scene

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serious crayons:

--- Quote from: Snavel del Snuit on September 06, 2007, 04:21:08 pm ---I really cannot see the love between them anymore in this scene... Ennis has become a burden to Jack and the other way around too. Especially the way Jack looks at Ennis with poorly hidden disgust.
--- End quote ---

I think the love is still there, but it's mingled with a lot of frustration on both their parts. I don't think Jack is disgusted with Ennis; I think he is frustrated and angry and sad.

Front-Ranger:

--- Quote from: moremojo on September 06, 2007, 09:50:59 pm ---I definitely think the scene shows how very much Ennis was in love with Jack. Notice how even after Ennis realizes the truth of Jack's sexuality and the full ramifications of it, and has threatened Jack as a result, he cannot follow through on the threat, and collapses in tears of frustration and fear when he thinks he is losing Jack once and for all.

Jack's feelings are more ambivalent. He's definitely feeling frustration, but one can argue that he's feeling a new resolve here as well ("I wish I knew how to quit you"). He reflects on the passage of time, and of how the chance for the kind of life he really wanted for the two of them has quietly slipped away. He goes to comfort Ennis in his despair, but there's an air of grudging responsibility here, and his anger has in no way dissolved ("Damn you, Ennis"). It pains me to think it, but I think it's a real possibility that we are seeing Jack in the process of letting Ennis go here--not necessarily letting go of his love, but of his dream of having the kind of relationship with him that he had always desired. He clearly is unhappy when watching Ennis drive away for that last time...as much as the film is saying goodbye to Jack here, Jack may be silently saying goodbye to Ennis and all Ennis had meant to him.

--- End quote ---
Very beautifully put, Scott. However, on your last point, I agree that Jack is letting go...but what I think he is doing is settling. He is bidding goodbye to the life together that he fantacized, but keeping hold of the much reduced dream of seeing Ennis once or twice a year...way out in the middle of nowhere.  Also, Jack had a tendency toward hyperbole, and complaining. So he probably could look forward to at least 4 or 5 HAFs a year. Still a very strained situation and a GBOAUS, that's for sure.

Brown Eyes:
Mel, this is a great thread!  And, I agree with Lee that a lot of the responses here are really, really moving and touching.
 :'(

I do understand what you mean that this argument scene happens on an entirely different emotional level than we encounter almost anywhere else in the film between the two men.  And, I think this has to do with how much we hear them open up and let loose with their emotions, frustrations, anger, etc.

I think the strength of their argument (how heated the argument becomes) is one sign of how much they do still love each other.  They're both completely invested in the argument and both are consumed by their respective emotions by this point.  I like Daphne7661's point that Ennis seems "stuck" and Jack seems "deeply sad"... that feels about right to me.  But, I think Jack was just as stuck as Ennis and Ennis was also just as sad as Jack.  (I think the yin and yang metaphor is very strong here when it comes to their emotions... they play off of one another and create situations for each other that cause "stuck" and "sad" emotions to come into play for both of them).

As for the question of the timing of the flashback...  I think this is vital to the scene as is the hug at the end.  This has been discussed a lot before, but it's worth repeating.  The flashback comes in and interrupts the "real time" argument scene so we don't know what happened between Jack and Ennis during the time that we're viewing and experiencing the flashback as Ang Lee places it in the film.  But the sweetness that the flashback infuses helps to remind the viewer of how pure their love was and has been throughout and the peace of the flashback serves as a contrast to the fraught situation occurring during the argument.  I think the hug at the end is the thing that gives the viewer continued hope for their relationship and allows us to sense as Proulx wrote... that by the end of the argument things had been wrenched back to almost where things were before the argument started (nothing finished and nothing resolved)...  It helps create the sense that the relationship will at least carry-on.
 :'(

Sammi:
It seemed like in this scene - Jack was already in a bad mood/pissed off before Ennis even mentioned November.  The scene begins with them silently packing up their things, they are not talking.  Then jack goes to get in his truck and stands there with the door open, the entire time they are not even making much eye contact.  He already looks pissed.  Was it just hard for them to say goodbye?  Jack mentioned going to see his folks and his tone and body language were foul, this is before Ennis told him he could not get away for August.  Then after that the argument began.  What was going on there?

Monika:

--- Quote from: Sammi on January 01, 2010, 09:20:23 pm ---It seemed like in this scene - Jack was already in a bad mood/pissed off before Ennis even mentioned November.  The scene begins with them silently packing up their things, they are not talking.  Then jack goes to get in his truck and stands there with the door open, the entire time they are not even making much eye contact.  He already looks pissed.  Was it just hard for them to say goodbye?  Jack mentioned going to see his folks and his tone and body language were foul, this is before Ennis told him he could not get away for August.  Then after that the argument began.  What was going on there?

--- End quote ---
that's how I've always interpreted the scene; it's hard to say good bye. Also, what becomes clear during the argument that follows is that Jack holds Ennis responsible for the fact that they have to part over and over again ("We could have had a real good life together, but you didn't want it Ennis") instead of living that sweet life together. So I think it's a combinationion of sadness about having to say goodbye once more and suppressed anger or bitterness about the situation that is also directed against Ennis.
I'd like to add though, that in spite of what is said during the argument, I do believe that Jack understands where Ennis is coming from. In spite of their different life styles during their latter years (Jack by then having a steady job and money) they both come from very similar backgrounds after all (a fact which is specially highlighted in the short story). Therefor I think, that although he definitely holds a fair amount of resentment against Ennis , a lot of it really is directed towards the situation they are in.
When you think about it, Jack plays it pretty safe. He stays with Lureen in spite of being more aware of himself and his needs than Ennis He never comes out, and keeps his relationship with Randall a secret. I think that indicates that he deep down understands and shares many of Ennis's fears.
 
so to return to the question; I think Jack is both sad over having to say goodbye (again),and angry at Ennis over having to do so but that deep down that anger is directed more at the situation itself. I have a hard believing that Jack, in spite of having money and his ability to dream and believe, wasn't aware of the many real dangers for gay men at that time and place.
This all goes back to my firm belief that this story ultimately is a critique of a homophobic society, and not a story about personal choices. Jack and Ennis both make the choices they do because of their backgrounds and the environment they grew up and lived in. They never stood a chance, and perhaps this is what Jack with time came to realise. If we interpret that heartwrecking sad and lost look he gives Ennis truck as Ennis drives away after the final argument, as Jack having lost his hope, I think we should think of it as society finally managing to rob Jack of what has been such a big part of his character; his ability to dream. And somehow fittingly tragic, shortly after, Jack's physical form also dies.

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