Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
TOTW 19/07: Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were af
myprivatejack:
--- Quote from: Artiste on December 22, 2007, 05:51:55 pm ---Wow, wow, you consider them (Ennis and Jack) not heroes!!
Are their wives them heroes, to you??
Do you think that Jack should have let things be?
Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to you and to all persons who like to help the world be a better place!!
--- End quote ---
Everybody is selfish when loves someone,because we want more of that person in every sense-about all,TIME-and if the circumstances don´t allow it in the measure we´d wish,we try everything to get it,no matter how.In this sense,Jack wasn´t more selfish than any one of us;what´s more,he was patient enough as to not putting a REAL ultimatum to Ennis much before,what perhaps would have changed the situation for good...I only have seen some proofs of his selfishness in scenes like when he asks if living with Alma is life--perhaps guessing that Ennis only can feel a real love for him.uh?-;or when he doesn´t understand why Ennis couldn´t stay with him in August in their last reunion.That´s all.
However,no,neither Jack nor Ennis are heroes,but two persons who were trying to live their love against the society and environment that they must live in;in this sense,are as "heroes" as anybody else who knows that never will they live as they want to and that meanwhile will let a lot of hopes,illusions and happiness along the way...
Moreover,by living this love they hurt some others persons,above all their wives; who aren´t a very much loved characters for many Brokies-in some fics I´ve read,Alma appears as a crazy woman who kills his ex husband and his lover,full of hate and revenge...-.We must forget that Alma is a country girl educated to be a good wife and mother,nothing more; someone who sees as all her world is destroyed by seeing the man she loves-and whom she keeps on loving after their divorce IMO-not only kissing another man,but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...Sorry for my horrible English,by the way...
brokeplex:
--- Quote from: myprivatejack on December 23, 2007, 07:06:20 pm ---Everybody is selfish when loves someone,because we want more of that person in every sense-about all,TIME-and if the circumstances don´t allow it in the measure we´d wish,we try everything to get it,no matter how.In this sense,Jack wasn´t more selfish than any one of us;what´s more,he was patient enough as to not putting a REAL ultimatum to Ennis much before,what perhaps would have changed the situation for good...I only have seen some proofs of his selfishness in scenes like when he asks if living with Alma is life--perhaps guessing that Ennis only can feel a real love for him.uh?-;or when he doesn´t understand why Ennis couldn´t stay with him in August in their last reunion.That´s all.
However,no,neither Jack nor Ennis are heroes,but two persons who were trying to live their love against the society and environment that they must live in;in this sense,are as "heroes" as anybody else who knows that never will they live as they want to and that meanwhile will let a lot of hopes,illusions and happiness along the way...
Moreover,by living this love they hurt some others persons,above all their wives; who aren´t a very much loved characters for many Brokies-in some fics I´ve read,Alma appears as a crazy woman who kills his ex husband and his lover,full of hate and revenge...-.We must forget that Alma is a country girl educated to be a good wife and mother,nothing more; someone who sees as all her world is destroyed by seeing the man she loves-and whom she keeps on loving after their divorce IMO-not only kissing another man,but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...Sorry for my horrible English,by the way...
--- End quote ---
Your English is just fine. You got your point across. I think that I agree with you about the fact that Ennis and Jack are not heroes. I don't think that Proulx or Lee intended that they would be heroes. They are just average guys with poor educations, and poor prospects that are trying to make their way thru a life in difficult circumstances. Jack was a lucky fellow for a while, he found a comfortable life with Lureen and he didn't wish to give that up. Ennis enjoyed the freedom, flexibility, and isolation of working as a cowhand, and he didn't want to give that up. And they both to varying degrees were afraid of a commitment to each other. Hence, their failure to really make a serious effort at living a life together somewhere.
I'm not sure about the depictions of Alma as a "crazy" woman in the Fan Fic section. People can imagine anything that they wish, that doesn't mean that their imaginings are consistent with the Proulx short story or the Lee film. I like Alma, and respect her decisions. She made an attempt to create a life with Ennis and finally gave up.
She did what she needed to do for herself and her children. I think that she always loved Ennis, he was the love of her life, she could feel nothing else. But, she had to make the right decision about him and left him.
Artiste:
Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!
Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...
......
Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??
................
Brokeplex, you say about Ennis and Jack: They are just average guys with poor educations
.......
Brokeplex, why do persons say that?? So what if they were poor and with not much education?? If they had been wealthy financially and highly educated like with university degrees or college in such as farming or ranching, they would have lived together forever after, really?? If I may ask that? Please detail.
.........
To me, Jack could not just be happy letting things they way they are, not forever!! He had... done so with Ennis, their ways... yes??
Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Happy gay Holidays to you and to all on earth!!
Front-Ranger:
--- Quote from: Artiste on December 23, 2007, 08:02:06 pm ---Thanks brokeplex, thanks myprivatejack, and thanks to all others too!!!!
Myprivatejack, you say: but kissing him with a passion that perhaps he never has shown with her...To be happy loving and bein loved we often hurt somebody else;this is not bad or ggood,it´s only LIFE...
......
Myprivatejack, I find your comment ineresting. It might be true that Ennis did not kiss Alma before and when she was his wife with such a passion!! What puzzles me is that she does seem to be still in torment after she divorses him, too many years after that divorse, why?? May I ask you since you are female!! ??
--- End quote ---
May I jump in here since I am also somewhat female? Altho myprivatejack has addressed this question in a very eloquent way... My feeling is that there are basically two ways of loving another person. You can want to possess them, and want to be possessed by them. But, there is another way, a nonpossessive way to love another person. If you follow that road, you've got to be prepared to never see that person again, if circumstances dictate it. You've got to be satisfied to only meet that person again, and be suffused with joy again, in your dreams. And that is the trick that Alma hasn't mastered. Jack did master it for four long years, but a kiss shook him to his very core...
brokeplex:
I suspect that Alma could not have mastered that technique in those times (1970'S) at that location(rural WY). She needed an adequate provider for her children and someone who could give her the attention she deserved. Lureen, did somewhat master that technique under different circumstances.
But, who knows, one can speculate that even Lureen who was in a much stronger position than Alma would have eventually grown tired of having the inattentive Jack around and gotten a divorce.
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