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Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
Brown Eyes:
Hi Milli!
Thanks for these great, thought provoking posts!!
I agree with you about Selina. The more I think about her scheme with Margaret the more cruel Selina seems. The deliberate way that she manipulated someone in such a fragile/ vulnerable emotional state is pretty low. And, when you think about the Margaret deception in addition to the other cons that Selina was pulling (for instance the prison guard), the perception of Selina's character gets even worse. She really knew how to manipulate people pulling all kinds of emotional strings. And, then when you think about the truly disturbing treatment of the young women at the hands of Selina and "Peter Quick"/Vigers during the heyday of their spiritualist circles, things only get worse for an understanding of Selina.
To me the one aspect of Selina's situation that can evoke sympathy for me is the idea that she might have been somehow manipulated and controlled by Vigers. But, still, the pair of them really are quite disturbing.
And, I really like your observation about Waters' frequent interest in bringing women of different classes together in her stories. That actually reminds me a little bit of E.M. Forster, who was always very interested in the idea of personal relationships across class boundaries (Maurice is of course his best example of this with the idealized relationship between Maurice and Scudder). The whole issue of class in Victorian and Edwardian England is so fascinating to lay on top of the issue of sexuality and sexual difference.
Another common theme within Waters's writing seems to be crime. In Tipping, Fingersmith and in Affinity, gay characters are shown resorting to different types of criminal activity for a wide range of motivations. In some cases the crimes seem somewhat more justified than other cases and the various characters evoke a huge range of reactions ranging from sympathy to outrage.
For instance, Nan resorting to prostitution in TTV is meant to show her desparation (it seems to me). While there are all sorts of ways to question her judgment about resorting to that kind of activity... I don't think it causes us to like her character less or to be truly outraged at her character for the duration of the whole story. And Zena stealing the money after she and Nan get kicked out of Diana's house is a sad disappointment. Other more extreme situations in Fingersmith or Affinity evoke much different types of reactions to the various characters. I wonder if the continual return to the theme of crime in Waters' books has anything to do with a meditation on gay people being forced to the fringes of society or pushed into desparate situations often due to the built in outsider status of gay folks (especially in a Victorian cultural context).
I really like how Waters creates a spectrum of "types" of lesbian and gay characters ranging from good/lovable/wholesome (like Flo) to truly criminal and reprehensible (like Selina and Vigers... or even Gentleman in Fingersmith).
And, thanks of the great news about Sally! :D
Lumière:
Hey Amanda!
Interesting point about the common theme of crime in the three novels! :)
I guess the only gay characters in the three books who didn't resort to crime were:
* Flo, as you rightly pointed out.
* Diana, and for obvious reasons - she was a wealthy woman who wanted for nothing. I guess her 'crime' was the way she treated, used and discarded the lovers in her life... take Nan for example. Still, she had no reason to resort to criminal activity.
* Charlie, remember him? The boot/knife boy from Briar. He was most definitely in love with Gentleman. I guess his only 'crime' was naivete. :)
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Lucise on October 10, 2008, 12:25:39 pm ---Hey Amanda!
Interesting point about the common theme of crime in the three novels! :)
I guess the only gay characters in the three books who didn't resort to crime were:
* Flo, as you rightly pointed out.
* Diana, and for obvious reasons - she was a wealthy woman who wanted for nothing. I guess her 'crime' was the way she treated, used and discarded the lovers in her life... take Nan for example. Still, she had no reason to resort to criminal activity.
* Charlie, remember him? The boot/knife boy from Briar. He was most definitely in love with Gentleman. I guess his only 'crime' was naivete. :)
--- End quote ---
Thanks Milli. In the society she describes I wonder what the actual laws were about homosexuality among women? I'll have to study my history more carefully to get a sense of what the legal status actually was surrounding lesbians in Victorian England. So, I wonder if somehow Waters is also making some kind of comment on the notion that simply by being who they were, these lesbian characters were already categorized as criminals regardless of any of their other activities (but again, we'd have to check the laws and the actual dates indicated in the stories).
At the very least, I think the theme of crime does serve to highlight the ideas of "outsider-status" and the idea of desperation that might come along with that kind of status. In TTV, I think the world of vaudeville theatre also serves to represent a "fringe" area of society or a subculture that had it's own rules outside of the mainstream.
I'm fairly sure that laws pertaining to men and women might have been different in Victorian times (and at least country to country) when it comes to homosexuality. I think in some cases lesbianism was so "invisible" to the powers-that-be it actually slipped under the radar of certain laws that targeted men. But, a better sense of the laws pertaining to men would be interesting when it comes to a character like Gentleman.
Lumière:
--- Quote from: atz75 on October 10, 2008, 02:14:51 pm ---...
I'm fairly sure that laws pertaining to men and women might have been different in Victorian times (and at least country to country) when it comes to homosexuality. I think in some cases lesbianism was so "invisible" to the powers-that-be it actually slipped under the radar of certain laws that targeted men. But, a better sense of the laws pertaining to men would be interesting when it comes to a character like Gentleman.
--- End quote ---
Excert from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_friendship
Up until the second half of the 19th century, same-sex romantic friendships were considered common and unremarkable in the West, and were distinguished from then-taboo homosexual relationships. But in the second half of the 19th century, expression of this nature became more rare as physical intimacy between non-sexual partners came to be regarded with anxiety.
Another excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_morality
Throughout the whole Victorian Era homosexuals were regarded as abominations and homosexuality was illegal. However, many famous men from the British Isles, such as Oscar Wilde, were notorious homosexuals. Toward the end of the century, many large trials were held on the subject.
In the case of romantic friendships ( probably more between women than men), the Victorians saw it as an outlet for intense 'passions' that would eventually be quenched after matrimony. I am sure that there is no doubt that some of these relationships were sexual, just like some were not.
By the early 20th century, sexologists (e.g Havelock Ellis) had already began publishing books on their theories of 'sexual inversion'; the innocence of 'romantic friendships', the value of such companionship/partnerships was quickly corroded. When Freud entered the picture, everything changed.
--- Quote ---At the very least, I think the theme of crime does serve to highlight the ideas of "outsider-status" and the idea of desperation that might come along with that kind of status. In TTV, I think the world of vaudeville theatre also serves to represent a "fringe" area of society or a subculture that had it's own rules outside of the mainstream.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you..
There was most definitely a subculture that lived by its own rules.
I am sure there were a few 'underground' bars like the one Nan brought Flo to (in the movie, reversed in the book).. where women who loved women could truly be themselves. I am sure there were 'gentlemen clubs' of the same caliber as well. :)
Btw, if I remember right, in Fingersmith (the novel), it was said that "in some circles", Gentleman was known as a "Nancy". It would've been interesting to read more of Gentleman's life.
Lumière:
Picture time...
When Margaret first saw Selina, she was...
...captivated.
This led me to think of...
I initially used this 'background image' of purple flowers in a pic of Kitty and Nan..
It definitely suits Margaret much better... the flowers, the ethereal nature of her 'vision' of Selina sitting in a shaft of light. :)
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