Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion

[Lumière]

When Amanda (atz75) brought up the idea of a Sarah Waters Books/Movies Discussion thread, I loved it immediately.  So here it is. 

Got no idea who Sarah Waters is?  Visit her website and check out her work...

I personally think that she is an excellent writer and storyteller and I am always willing to discuss her stories with others. 
The banner above shows the four books she has published to date:

• Tipping the Velvet
• Affinity
• FingerSmith
• The Night Watch

I am not sure which book we should start with..
Amanda?...Want to take it from here? 

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Bud!!

Thanks so much for starting this!  Your image for the thread in the first post is lovely.  And, it's really helpful to have a link to her website.

It seems to me that the most overarching thing to understand about Waters is that she writes period-novels using very traditional writing styles and writing tone reminiscent of whatever period she's writing about... but she'll re-insert the gay characters into the narrative (they're usually the protagonists in her stories) that are often erased in traditional literature.

I think we should start with Tipping the Velvet, only because it seems to be the most well-known.  I watch the mini-series on DVD all the time.  It's sort of one of my fun "comfort" things to watch when there's nothing on TV or when I'm not watching BBM (lol).

In honor of this thread, I think I'll reread the book this long-weekend and remind myself of the differences that may exist between the book and the mini-series.  At the moment, the mini-series is much more familiar to me since it's been a while since I read the book.

Of her four books, I recall that my favorite is Fingersmith, followed by Tipping the Velvet.  I think the mini-series of Tipping the Velvet is much better than the two-part series on Fingersmith.  I just think the story and the amazing plot twist in Fingersmith are amazing in terms of pure story-telling.  There's something much more straight-forward to me about the way Tipping the Velvet progresses as a narrative.

[Lumière]

That is a wonderfully eloquent intro to Ms Waters work, Amanda.  I am rubbish at writing intro posts, lol.. but now that we got the ball rolling, I am looking forward to the discussions we'll have in here. 


I have spent many entertaining hours reading Sarah’s books and I’ve fallen for her characters every time. 

Affinity may not be as popular as Fingersmith or Tipping the Velvet but I enjoyed it immensely and was very much affected by it.  It was such a sad depressing story, with a heartwrenchingly twisted ending as you know, but I got so into it I could not put it down.  The story reads to me like a rather dark, yet sensuous poem.  I thought going back and forth between Selena and Margaret’s journals in the past and present was brilliant.  I loved putting the pieces together as I went along.  It will be hard to read again, especially knowing how things unfold and how it ends, but I still can’t wait to get into it when we get to it.


I feel I’ve had a fuller experience of Tipping the Velvet and FingerSmith thanks to the TV adaptations that put faces to the characters I enjoyed reading about so much.  When I first watched Fingersmith, it was after I had seen Tipping the Velvet more than 10 times already.  I liked it but I didn’t get as emotionally involved in it as I did with TTV.  Then I bought the Fingersmith novel over a month ago actually, and started reading; I couldn’t put it down.  When I was done reading, I went back and watched the movie and loved it even more than I imagined.  I have watched it several times since and still get engrossed in Maud and Susan and how their love grew.  I do think that the Fingersmith TV adaptation was truer to its novel than Tipping the Velvet was to its own novel, but I have been able to find a common place where Nan and Kitty and Flo from the novel & movie come together and mesh rather nicely.


The Night Watch was the one out of Sarah’s books that seemed to have a thoroughly different tone/voice to it.  I was intrigued by the layout of the book, how she started at the present day and ended in the past.  I enjoyed it a lot though not with the same intensity as FingerSmith, TTV and even Affinity.

I read an article that stated that Affinity and The Night Watch will be adapted to TV movies this year or so.  I am keeping an eye out for updates on that front (& for Sarah’s next book, of course)

Okay, as you said, we’ll start with Tipping the Velvet.  I think I’ll have to go and reread major portions, if not all of the book as well.

[Lumière]

Hey Amanda,

Since we settled on a "what tickles your fancy" approach for this thread...
There is something I need to get off my chest.. 

After reading TTV (which was after falling in love with the TV version of the story), I found myself wishing they'd kept Florence true to SW's character.  Don't get me wrong, I love Movie!Flo; I think Jodhi May did a fine job with her.  But... SW's Flo had somewhat more intensity and was the more experienced of the pair (another aspect of the story that was 'reversed' in the movie).
I remember reading an interesting SW interview where she talks about this "role reversal".  I hunted it down and here it is:


There are a couple of scenes where Nancy takes Florence to a gay pub and in the book, it's the other way around. I still would've preferred to have kept it that way because the whole point is that it's Nancy's sexual education in the book and its crucial she gets that from Florence rather than initiating Florence into a queer world. I felt it was maybe something to do with the mainstreaming of Tipping, that actually mainstream culture can handle coming-out stories but actually to present grown-up lesbians in a grown-up lesbian world of their own was too much. They had to have it that Florence was all innocent.

{ http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/books/features/sarah-waters-interview.shtml }


Interesting, isn't it? 

[Brown Eyes]

It's been a while since I've read the book of Tipping the Velvet (I didn't get a chance to re-read it like I had hoped to this past weekend).  But, from what I recall of Flo in the book, I think you're right.  In the mini-series, Flo is made to seem very domestic, extremely earnest... and just the type of girl one would be expected to "settle down with."  In a way, I feel like the conclusion of the mini-series... especially with the particular song that Nan's singing on stage... is all about the decision to "settle down and be comfortable."  Flo in the book was definitely more sexually experienced and adventurous than her character in the film... at least from what I recall.  It's honestly a little hard for me to imagine anyone being more experienced than Nan following her relationship with Diana Lethaby (either in the film or book).
 

The whole Diana segment of the book felt a little preposterous to me when I first read it.  But, I love that segment of the mini-series.  I think Anna Chancellor did a brilliant job with that character and... I totally love her voice.  I find the way she speaks, especially right when her character is introduced in the carriage, completely mesmerizing. 
<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/thumb/3559174-843.jpg" border="0" />


It's interesting to me that Flo's character was made significantly more "wholesome", while many aspects of the Diana segment really weren't toned down too much (or I could imagine that the Diana segment could have been significantly more watered-down than it was).  Trying to imagine a decadent, rather mean-spirited, upper-crust lesbian society like Diana's is definitely pretty interesting, and I'm sure not something that a "mainstream" audience would have been expecting.  Maybe in order to keep the Diana segment rather scandalous... the film makers decided to tone-down the Flo character.

But, you're point is definitely well taken.

What did you think of how Flo's brother is portrayed in the film and in the story?

Hey Amanda,

Since we settled on a "what tickles your fancy" approach for this thread...
There is something I need to get off my chest.. 

After reading TTV (which was after falling in love with the TV version of the story), I found myself wishing they'd kept Florence true to SW's character.  Don't get me wrong, I love Movie!Flo; I think Jodhi May did a fine job with her.  But... SW's Flo had somewhat more intensity and was the more experienced of the pair (another aspect of the story that was 'reversed' in the movie).
I remember reading an interesting SW interview where she talks about this "role reversal".  I hunted it down and here it is:


There are a couple of scenes where Nancy takes Florence to a gay pub and in the book, it's the other way around. I still would've preferred to have kept it that way because the whole point is that it's Nancy's sexual education in the book and its crucial she gets that from Florence rather than initiating Florence into a queer world. I felt it was maybe something to do with the mainstreaming of Tipping, that actually mainstream culture can handle coming-out stories but actually to present grown-up lesbians in a grown-up lesbian world of their own was too much. They had to have it that Florence was all innocent.

{ http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/books/features/sarah-waters-interview.shtml }


Interesting, isn't it? 

[Brown Eyes]

Tipping the Velvet 2009?!!!

Heya!  I was just searching imdb for some info on the old Tipping the Velvet mini series and I discovered a listing for 2009!  But, when you click on the link it says that info can only be found through imdb Pro.

Have you heard any rumors about another film version of this book?

http://www.imdb.com/find?s=tt&q=tippin+the+velvet&x=14&y=10

[Lumière]

I see your point about post-Diana Nancy! 

I suppose Nan might've been experienced in the "sexual act" but was very much a novice/innocent in the sense that she didn't know the ins & outs of the "queer lifestyle" like Flo did... like she'd never been to a queer bar and was amazed to see all the other "toms" dressed in men's clothes like she usually did.

  I'll have to go and re-read a few sections, I'm sure. 

What did you think of how Flo's brother is portrayed in the film and in the story?

Movie!Ralph was a darling.  Who wouldn't want a brother or friend like him? 
I loved his compassionate, shy nature..
I particularly loved the scene where he stumbles into Flo and Nan sleeping together after their night out.  It was too adorable.
Gosh, I'm gonna have to go read the story again..  . .but was Book!Ralph that different from Movie!Ralph?

[Lumière]

Re: Tipping the Velvet 2009..

I had already heard and read on a few sites that Sofia Coppola is working on a TTV movie.

There were rumours online that two actresses who'd signed on to the project were Eva Longoria and Beyonce Knowles..
But it turned out to be just that - a rumour.

Good, 'cause I didn't know how well that would've worked out. lol.

[Brown Eyes]

I'll have to re-read myself in order to compare mini-series Ralph to book-Ralph.  But, he was great in the mini series for sure.  I think the two of them (Ralph and Flo) are meant to be Nan's enticement to "settle down" and build "a cozy little nest" as she sings at the end.  I think in the film, they go out of their way to show that Nan really wants to find a stable and secure way to live with a woman permanently.  And, with Flo and her brother she's found a really great scenario.  There are certain aspects of Flo in the mini series that really are very lovely and appealing.

Again, you're right that Flo's character is made more "wholesome" in the process.  If I recall correctly, in the book it's Flo... not even Diana who introduces Nan to some of the most intense aspects of lesbian sexuality.

You're right that in a certain way... with Diana, Nancy is very sheltered... but sheltered within a very particular/closed society.  Still, I do understand how in the mini-series it's interpreted that Nan would have understood the world of lesbian bars, etc. through her identity as a theatre person.  It's believable to me at least.  I really liked how the lesbian bar was portrayed in the mini-series.  And, I thought it was cute that Nan had fans in the room who recognized her and talked about how much of a role model she and Kitty had been.

The way the mini-series is filmed is very wistful.  There's something about it's tone that seems very specific and really rather unusual.  But, I think the overall effect is really great.  On a basic level, it's just nice to see a complicated lesbian story taken so seriously and also becoming so popular.

I see your point about post-Diana Nancy! 

I suppose Nan might've been experienced in the "sexual act" but was very much a novice/innocent in the sense that she didn't know the ins & outs of the "queer lifestyle" like Flo did... like she'd never been to a queer bar and was amazed to see all the other "toms" dressed in men's clothes like she usually did.

  I'll have to go and re-read a few sections, I'm sure. 


Movie!Ralph was a darling.  Who wouldn't want a brother or friend like him? 
I loved his compassionate, shy nature..
I particularly loved the scene where he stumbles into Flo and Nan sleeping together after their night out.  It was too adorable.
Gosh, I'm gonna have to go read the story again..  . .but was Book!Ralph that different from Movie!Ralph?

[Brown Eyes]

Re: Tipping the Velvet 2009..

I had already heard and read on a few sites that Sofia Coppola is working on a TTV movie.

There were rumours online that two actresses who'd signed on to the project were Eva Longoria and Beyonce Knowles..
But it turned out to be just that - a rumour.

Good, 'cause I didn't know how well that would've worked out. lol.

I really like Sofia Coppola... I could imagine her doing a great job directing and interpreting Tipping the Velvet in a new movie.  It's hard to imagine either of those actresses in Tipping the Velvet... but who knows.  Anyway, I hadn't heard any of these rumors until tonight.  But, well... at least it really is still listed on imdb.  I actually like the mini-series so well, it's hard to imagine another version.