Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
who/what in BBBM/real life would you like to "fix "rather than stand?
myprivatejack:
--- Quote from: Mandy21 on March 20, 2008, 12:28:51 am ---Brokeplex, I agree with your statement; it was unrealistic to imagine Ennis ever soliciting a therapist for help. Hell, he couldn't even admit what he thought were his weaknesses (even though they weren't) to himself. How in the whole wide world could he have ever admitted it to another???
Artiste, I also believe that both Jack and Ennis tried their whole lives together to be sort of therapists to each other, from the moment that Jack says it's all right in TS2. But does that mean they ever succeeded? If so, would Ennis have been on his knees crying in the final scene, and would Jack have been trying so hard to understand this moment of desperation/hopelessness/weakness in a man he perceived as so strong for 20 years?
I don't know, maybe you'd like to explain?
--- End quote ---
I also believe that both of them-but in a greater extent Jack-were a sort of therapists to each other; from the very moment they began to share duties and loneliness in BBM,both of them helped each other to overcome the results of some unlucky childhood and adolescence-Ennis for having lost his parents,Jack for having had such a rough father-.In the sense that both of them made the other feel important for himself,feel appreciated and valued for what and how he was.I've always thought that this helped Jack to have his feet more on the ground and Ennis to open himself more than never before...,it's to say,giving each other what they were lacked of.
From this moment onwards,however,and although they helped each other- even unconsciously- in coming to terms with their feeling and sexuality somehow,specially Jack was wrong in his therapist's role.I mean,he never dared to put Ennis really against the ropes,in a kind of ultimatum about their situation; he didn't want to fear him with a too strong reaction that made him scape and lose him...He didn't use a "shock therapy" that is sometimes necessary,but only tried to manage the situation the best he could.The result was that Ennis was building during years an edifice of a greater separation between their meetings with the "bricks"of the many excuses he always put to avoid commitment.And with the confrontation scene all the things they had inside themselves come out to the surface; so Ennis broke down by hearing all what he also felt but he didn't dare to admit even to himself.ÍMO, their therapist's role worked as a friends much more than as lovers indeed.
Mandy21:
--- Quote from: myprivatejack on March 20, 2008, 12:06:14 pm ---
The result was that Ennis was building during years an edifice of a greater separation between their meetings with the "bricks"of the many excuses he always put to avoid commitment.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you, m.p.j., the only way I can semi-justify Jack's reticence to confront Ennis or threaten to leave Ennis over the years is to believe that he was 100% unconditionally in love with Ennis. I remember believing in this so much that I struggled to understand the final scene between them, with the "wish I knew how to quit you" line. When you last for 20 years with someone as a friend/lover, even if it's only infrequently and in secret/shame (in Ennis's mind, at least), what's 21 years, 22 years, 23 years, etc. in the scheme of things?
It's very intriguing to me that their final scene together alluded to a break-up, and then Jack ended up dead before they could possibly reconcile. Makes it all the more tragic, the not knowing if Ennis was finally realizing Jack's commitment to him which caused Ennis to send the what-turned-out-to-be-returned "deceased" postcard to meet up again.
optom3:
--- Quote from: Mandy21 on March 19, 2008, 12:51:48 pm ---Artiste, I simply thought that Ennis had so many leftover childhood repressed memories and fears instilled in him, that he never would have been able to live in the same house with a man, no matter how much he loved him. I agree with the observation that maybe the reason their relationship lasted so long was purely because they saw each other so few times, and those times were always special and mysterious, and they both saw to it that they were magical moments, every one of them.
Afraid I don't agree that either of them would have seen a therapist in that day and age, Fiona, just my opinion. Surely not a common thing to do back then. Did any of you folks see the movie "Far From Heaven" with Dennis Quaid (ironically enough) and Julianne Moore? Shrinks can't exactly cure being gay, can they? And why would they want to, anyway?
--- End quote ---
That is what I meant,probably phrased it badly.He would have needed therapy but would never have got it in those days.So I agree wth you completely.
myprivatejack:
--- Quote from: Mandy21 on March 20, 2008, 12:17:39 pm ---I agree with you, m.p.j., the only way I can semi-justify Jack's reticence to confront Ennis or threaten to leave Ennis over the years is to believe that he was 100% unconditionally in love with Ennis. I remember believing in this so much that I struggled to understand the final scene between them, with the "wish I knew how to quit you" line. When you last for 20 years with someone as a friend/lover, even if it's only infrequently and in secret/shame (in Ennis's mind, at least), what's 21 years, 22 years, 23 years, etc. in the scheme of things?
It's very intriguing to me that their final scene together alluded to a break-up, and then Jack ended up dead before they could possibly reconcile. Makes it all the more tragic, the not knowing if Ennis was finally realizing Jack's commitment to him which caused Ennis to send the what-turned-out-to-be-returned "deceased" postcard to meet up again.
--- End quote ---
Yes,he was deeply in love,so much as to not threatening the only thing he had; these few meetings two or three times a year...However,and in my opinion,he began to see there was no real future for them in the scene near the river,when Ennis makes fun of his suggestion to move to Texas after showing his paranoia.I think he began a struggle between his heart and his mind,because he saw this but he can't put it into practise; for this reason he said that "wish I knew how to quit you"...For me,the real problem is that always there's a point of non return,and Jack was at the point of arriving to it in their final scene together; they had to have said all these to each other much before and these thing were" rotting" inside them until they finally explode...Perhaps they had reconciled,because Ennis sent him a postcard to met again after this "explosion"; to have a relief,I like to think that all what they said then served to think it over and try to find a solution together when we had met.As a matter of fact,after Jack's death,we see a kind of "new" Ennis,with a greater commitment with his inner self; why couldn't this happen also if they met again after the struggle?.
Artiste:
Thanks Mandy!
You say:
Artiste, I also believe that both Jack and Ennis tried their whole lives together to be sort of therapists to each other, from the moment that Jack says it's all right in TS2.
............
Yes, they BOTH made then steps in the BM movie!! They BOTH succeeded then SAME time!!
Just realised that so rare mutual timing!! Right??
So why could they NOT mutually again come to be so together again for the rest of their lives as a COUPLE??
.............
You say:
But does that mean they ever succeeded?
..........
They were about to do so... again, right??
Au revoir,
hugs!
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