Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?

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Fran:

--- Quote from: atz75 on March 18, 2008, 11:34:42 pm ---Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?


--- End quote ---

I think Ennis is angry because Alma agreed to work the extra shift without asking him if it would be okay.  He doesn't like her newfound independence.  He's upset that she didn't feel that she had to ask for his permission to change the household routine.  He's used to being the one telling her what to do.

And maybe Monroe plays a part in this scene, too.  Ennis says, "Well, tell him you made a fuckin' mistake."  Ennis doesn't say, "Tell them...." (the "them" being some other employee who couldn't work those particular hours).  The "him" is obviously Monroe.  By working the extra shift, Alma is doing Monroe a favor.  In Ennis's mind, she's doing something to please Monroe, putting Monroe before the needs of her own family, and Ennis doesn't like it.

The depiction of the girls' reaction to the fight is perfect in that scene, especially how they turn away from Ennis after they say, "No."  Although they would love a push from Ennis, they're not going to give him the satisfaction of being allowed to give them one.

myprivatejack:
I think Ennis and Alma had an argument because their married life was far from being perfect; in this situation,any insignificant question can become a problem and a struggle.And it's obvious that the more attached he was to Jack-even if he didn't want to admit to himself...-,the less he was to Alma.Ennis wasn't easy with his marriage,with the role he had chosen because he had to give the image he thought society obliged him to give.This is his greatest frustration,and this frustration turned into violence; as in this scene,the fight with the motards,with the driver,even his reaction to Alma's discovering of her knowledge about who was Jack Nasty...
In this case,we can say he wasn't a good father, as well as a good husband,because this violence is a psychical aggression sooner or later to children,who see that something is going wrong at home.Not directly,but indirectly.

BlissC:
I was thinking about this again today at work (even when I'm not here I feel like I should be - lol!) and I couldn't help but think that in comparison to some of the dysfunctional families that are commonplace these days, okay they weren't perfect, and they made mistakes, but they did as well as they knew how to for their kids, and at least they were around for their kids. It would have been easy in some ways (ignoring the whole huge thing about Ennis's fears etc. for a moment) for them to decide they'd had enough of living a lie and either go off together, or just to leave their wives so that at least they were "single" and would have had more freedom to meet up periodically. Admittedly Ennis probably used his kids as an excuse for not leaving Alma and going with Jack a lot of the time, especially in the later years, but in that era the idea of family and of marriage, and family life was still entrenched in the views of society, and it wasn't thought proper that unmarried women would rear children alone, and the idea of "waiting until you were married" before having sex, or children was still the norm.

I'm not saying that we should return to that, and I'm not wanting to make a moralistic judgement - I know everyone's circumstances are different, and I personally don't have a problem with single mothers, single fathers, etc. etc., but in today's society the whole idea of "family" often breaks down, and where kids are involved, it's often the kids that suffer.

There's a case not too far from where I live recently where a 9 year old girl was abducted, and was missing for 24 days before the police found her. When she was found it turned out she'd been abducted by the uncle of her mother's partner. The mother has something like 8 kids by 5 different fathers - some of them live with her, some live with their father, and some have no contact with their fathers. When the girl was found, rather than being reunited with her mother and taken home, the police got an emergency care order to take her into foster care. Neighbours have been reported as saying that she was "lost" long before she was abducted. Even her grandparents are now saying that she shouldn't be returned to her mother.

Obviously I know only what's reported by the media, and it's easy for me to judge the situation, but working as I do in social housing, all the time I see  kids caught up in the middle of disputes between their parents, who may or may not live together, kids who are moved from pillar to post and lack any stability in their lives, and that's very common, and more and more common these days.

Should parents always stay together for the sake of the children? No. That's not always the best situation for either the kids or the parents, but day in day out when you see kids with no stability in their lives, no sense of belonging, no firm discipline or guiding force, no male role model in their lives, you start to wonder if maybe the old ways were better.

At least Bobby and Francine/Jenny, and Alma Jnr had their fathers in their lives and that stability. Undoubtedly the girls at least knew there were problems between their parents, but they had two parents who loved them, and who were there for them. Their fathers weren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they they weren't abusive to their kids, and they were present in their lives, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of kids these days get.

Monika:
This is a hard one to me because there are many definitions to what makes a "good father"

Generally for both Jack and Ennis I feel that neither of them were very good father due to the fact that neither lived the life they wanted. I think unhappy people make not so good parents.´If people are happy I think it´s much easier for them to be good parents. Even if Ennis for example tries to be a good dad, I´m sure the girls must feel that they never really know their dad. Kids know more that we think.

Jack, I think, would have left Bobby. When Jack is talking about Lureen´s dad offering to pay him for leaving...I do think that staying away completely is what Lureen´s dad had in mind.

I think that there´s a point in portraying both Ennis and Jack as bad parents, it´s part of Proulx´ mission statement about showing the effects of Jack and Ennis´tragic lovestory on not only them but on the people close to them.

But, I must say, I think that both Jack and Ennis loved their kids, but due to never being happy themselves or show who they really were to the world, they could never truly connec with their children.

Bobby, Alma Jr and Jenny are victims just as much as Jack and Ennis are.

it´s all just so so sad

BlissC:

--- Quote from: buffymon on March 22, 2008, 12:17:19 pm ---Bobby, Alma Jr and Jenny are victims just as much as Jack and Ennis are.

it´s all just so so sad

--- End quote ---

That sums it up perfectly.

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