Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
Artiste:
Merci seriouscrayons !
Your post adds something. Maybe you don't realized it! Maybe I don't! About certains things !!
Firstly, I do talk in circles. Like Annie ?? To me, that's good, at times !!
A few years ago, I was at a laywer's cabinet ( I had many lawyers that year I searched for), and I was surprised that he said to me that I talked in circles !!
I did not know that I did that! So, he rushed in his partner, since he wanted him too see that!! This is a very famous lawyer! You would think that he would have met such a person who talks in circles before ??
I am starting to find some reasons why I do talk in circles, at times.
Oh, I wonder if Annie knows why she talks in circles?
...............
Seriouscrayons, this is one reason maybe that Cassie is added to the BM movie? That being that Cassie is a circle ?? In her case, it is a boomerang circle!! You know that a boomerang always comes back ??
Cassie's circle is trying to be attached to Ennis but it can NOT !!
So Cassie's love came back but for herself by herself!!
Ennis is a different circle now that he was married to Alma (a female), and since he found out that his love is leaning towards Jack again (playful sex had been happy the firsts times on Brokeback Mountain), the road of love tries to be more straight... or is straightening towards Jack, another individual and not Cassie !!
I can accept that maybe Ennis finds Cassie convenient, since she has a crush on him, but I find no proof that he had sex with her!!
Why do you think that Cassie is in the movie?
Au revoir,
hugs! I can consider the word lovely as a ladies's word more often used by females, but I think that wonderful is used by BOTH sexes equally ?? Cassie is lovely, and Ennis is wonderful to her!! - That is my view!! For now...
...................
Talking about words:
what about the words murder and kill; kill is a ladies' word and murder is a gentleman's word ??
BlissC:
--- Quote from: Artiste on April 11, 2008, 11:04:48 am ---I can accept that maybe Ennis finds Cassie convenient, since she has a crush on him, but I find no proof that he had sex with her!!
--- End quote ---
I have no proof that the sun exists, never having been there, and never having known anyone who's been there. I see it every day (British weather permitting), but just because I see it, does it make it real? I've seen photos of it, but photos can be faked, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. ;)
We have no direct evidence that Jack has a relationship with Randall, but that doesn't mean we don't believe they had a relationship. All we see is a conversation between the two of them on a bench outside the dance hall, Jack's statement to Ennis that he's having an affair with a rancher neighbour's wife, and OMT's mention of Jack going back to Lightning Flat with "some other fella". Not a lot to go on, but reading between the lines, and on the balance of probability, we assume they did have a relationship. Did they have sex? We've no proof of that either, but again on the balance of probability we guess yes, probably.
According to the timeline as close as we can guess, Ennis must have been dating Cassie for 4-5 years. As Seriouscrayons says, given a relationship that long, if they didn't have sex Cassie would be very suspicious (unless we assume she comes under that class of asexual people, but we have no proof of that either) and would surely wonder why. Ennis is a grown man; he's quite capable, if he wishes to, of ending the relationship (he doesn't have a problem with telling Jack "no" on a number of issues, so I can't see saying no to Cassie would be a problem to him), but he doesn't. Cassie isn't forcing him to have a relationship with her. Okay, so when he first meets her he's not too keen on dancing with her, but I know men (and women) who aren't keen on dancing! Maybe he's just had a long day and he just wants to sit down? It's clear from his dancing style that he's not used to dancing and is nervous - maybe he just doesn't want to make a fool of himself, but it's a large leap from Ennis not wanting to dance, to Cassie forcing him to have a relationship with her!
--- Quote from: Artiste on April 10, 2008, 02:36:43 pm ---I am flattered like Ennis that Cassie acts, but I would NOT have sex with her; therefore, I do not think that Ennis had sex with her neither?? Is that a possibility?
--- End quote ---
But you're not Ennis Artiste! Just because you wouldn't have sex with her doesn't mean Ennis wouldn't either.
Okay, looking at the evidence for Cassie and Ennis....
Cassie & Ennis - the evidence
* Does Ennis have sex with women, or at least a woman? Yes - he's married to Alma and we know they have sex, and they have two kids
* Cassie and Ennis dated for 4-5 years. Would it be natural to assume in a relationship of that length that the couple concerned would have sex? Yes.
* Given that, do we see any evidence of Cassie complaining that they don't have sex? (which it would be fair to assume she would if they didn't, unless she falls into the asexual category, which there's no evidence of). No.
* Do we have any evidence of Cassie being aggressive to Ennis and forcing him to have a relationship with her? No. Pulling him to the dance floor to dance when he wasn't keen is hardly crime of the century, and if I had to list everyone who'd ever made me get up and dance when I really didn't want to, we'd be here all night!
* Does Cassie view her relationship with Ennis as a "serious relationship"? Cassie asks Alma Jr about Ennis seeing fit to settle down - she clearly has thoughts of marriage, so it's fair to assume theirs is a serious relationship
* Does the notion of having a "serious relationship" with someone include having sex with them? Usually, yes.
* Ennis's words to Jack on their final camping trip: "Been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton."
That's a fair bit of evidence there, including a direct quote to Jack.
--- Quote ---Talking about words:
what about the words murder and kill; kill is a ladies' word and murder is a gentleman's word ??
--- End quote ---
Men kill, definitely, but by definition, a gentleman would not kill, or he would not be a gentleman. ;)
serious crayons:
Thank you, BlissC, for your thorough list and cogent argument. I think, as you indicate, the last item is especially noteworthy: Ennis himself says they've been having sex. That is, he tells Jack he's been "putting the blocks to" Cassie, a phrase which in regard to animals refers to mating.
Artiste, you get it directly from the mouth of Ennis -- how much more proof do you need??
But again, we're going over ahd over the same things. BlissC compiled the answers very well, but many of them have already been mentioned here. I don't know why I keep coming to this thread and feeling compelled to answer the same question over and over again. I'm really going to try to stop now.
::) ::) ::)
brokeplex:
--- Quote from: BlissC on April 11, 2008, 04:42:32 pm ---I have no proof that the sun exists, never having been there, and never having known anyone who's been there. I see it every day (British weather permitting), but just because I see it, does it make it real? I've seen photos of it, but photos can be faked, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. ;)
We have no direct evidence that Jack has a relationship with Randall, but that doesn't mean we don't believe they had a relationship. All we see is a conversation between the two of them on a bench outside the dance hall, Jack's statement to Ennis that he's having an affair with a rancher neighbour's wife, and OMT's mention of Jack going back to Lightning Flat with "some other fella". Not a lot to go on, but reading between the lines, and on the balance of probability, we assume they did have a relationship. Did they have sex? We've no proof of that either, but again on the balance of probability we guess yes, probably.
According to the timeline as close as we can guess, Ennis must have been dating Cassie for 4-5 years. As Seriouscrayons says, given a relationship that long, if they didn't have sex Cassie would be very suspicious (unless we assume she comes under that class of asexual people, but we have no proof of that either) and would surely wonder why. Ennis is a grown man; he's quite capable, if he wishes to, of ending the relationship (he doesn't have a problem with telling Jack "no" on a number of issues, so I can't see saying no to Cassie would be a problem to him), but he doesn't. Cassie isn't forcing him to have a relationship with her. Okay, so when he first meets her he's not too keen on dancing with her, but I know men (and women) who aren't keen on dancing! Maybe he's just had a long day and he just wants to sit down? It's clear from his dancing style that he's not used to dancing and is nervous - maybe he just doesn't want to make a fool of himself, but it's a large leap from Ennis not wanting to dance, to Cassie forcing him to have a relationship with her!
But you're not Ennis Artiste! Just because you wouldn't have sex with her doesn't mean Ennis wouldn't either.
Okay, looking at the evidence for Cassie and Ennis....
Cassie & Ennis - the evidence
* Does Ennis have sex with women, or at least a woman? Yes - he's married to Alma and we know they have sex, and they have two kids
* Cassie and Ennis dated for 4-5 years. Would it be natural to assume in a relationship of that length that the couple concerned would have sex? Yes.
* Given that, do we see any evidence of Cassie complaining that they don't have sex? (which it would be fair to assume she would if they didn't, unless she falls into the asexual category, which there's no evidence of). No.
* Do we have any evidence of Cassie being aggressive to Ennis and forcing him to have a relationship with her? No. Pulling him to the dance floor to dance when he wasn't keen is hardly crime of the century, and if I had to list everyone who'd ever made me get up and dance when I really didn't want to, we'd be here all night!
* Does Cassie view her relationship with Ennis as a "serious relationship"? Cassie asks Alma Jr about Ennis seeing fit to settle down - she clearly has thoughts of marriage, so it's fair to assume theirs is a serious relationship
* Does the notion of having a "serious relationship" with someone include having sex with them? Usually, yes.
* Ennis's words to Jack on their final camping trip: "Been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton."
That's a fair bit of evidence there, including a direct quote to Jack.
Men kill, definitely, but by definition, a gentleman would not kill, or he would not be a gentleman. ;)
--- End quote ---
the proof that the sun exists lies in the measuring of its effects. I don't need faith or conjecture to believe that the sun exists in the real universe.
the effects of Ennis's relationship with Cassie are numerous and evident in the film. there are no effects observed of a hypothetical relationship between Jack and Randall other than the casual aside by OMT in the kitchen scene. however, it is logical to believe that Jack and Randall had a relationship based even on those sparse details.
brokeplex:
--- Quote from: seriouscrayons on April 11, 2008, 04:53:47 pm ---
I don't know why I keep coming to this thread and feeling compelled to answer the same question over and over again.
--- End quote ---
that to me is a much more interesting question than whether or not, or how often Ennis and Cassie had "sex". ???
a corollary to that question is : why does Artiste seem to need to believe that Ennis did not have "sex" with Cassie? ???
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