The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
Atheists: Come out, come out, wherever you are
Shuggy:
Some "more abouts":
In my experience, churchgoing is much more about spending time with people who feel the same as you than your individual relationship with a deity. Churches are places for feeling good - though that can sometimes be the good feeling of guilt or fear.
Anyone who takes a global view can hardly fail to see that what people believe has vastly more to do with where they live (and what their parents believe) than any relationship to an objective reality.
I think our highly exaggerated respect for other people's religions has more to do with knowledge from bitter experience of the consequences of doing otherwise than any actual respect for things we can't help but think are foolish - according to our own (foolish) beliefs.
delalluvia:
--- Quote ---I think our highly exaggerated respect for other people's religions has more to do with knowledge from bitter experience of the consequences of doing otherwise than any actual respect for things we can't help but think are foolish - according to our own (foolish) beliefs.
--- End quote ---
Well said Shugs.
When journalists cannot criticize a recently deceased Pope on TV because they fear the death threats and avalanche of hate mail they'll get, when filmmakers are killed in the streets for daring to unveil a misogynistic way of life, when hundreds are killed over cartoons in the newspapers and locals have to endure taunts and threats and ostracism for daring to suggest maybe Christmas pagents in public schools are not such a great idea, you know where the 'respect' comes from.
Fear. >:(
Lynne:
There is so much good stuff here...I feel a *LONG* post coming on...apologies in advance.
Dellaluvia - you make good points...I think I first started feeling alienated from the standard Christian religion after truly understanding the number of people dead directly/indirectly in the name 'God'...That never jibed with my view of a divine or anything I want to be remotely associated with. And that extends to all other fundamentalist/exclusionary interpretations of 'God', not just Christian...This may be hugely controversial, but I see little difference between Osama et al. advocating destruction of US capital interests and Christian leaders here advocating assasinating a foreign head of state and blaming the WTC bombings on liberals, feminists, et.al. I KNOW these delusionals do not represent the majority of their respective religions, but....I'm appalled at the lack of cohesive American Christian outrage after these kinds of statements. Is it apathy? or passive acceptance? Like it or not, in the absence of some strong clear voices denounciing these ideas, the rest of the world accepts it as a common opinion.
Shuggy - you make terrific points about the connection between religion and community. It's one of the reasons I really hesitate about vocalizing my own views beyond some general statements...religion is not just spiritual to plenty of people - it may encompass a cultural awareness and sense of community that is so fundamental that analysis is extremely complex. You're not just questioning one belief, but an entire way of life and community that has as deep roots in tradition as much in belief in the divine.
Katharine/Barb/Clarissa/Celeste...all these stories about being questioned about church attendance, particularly in suburban/rural/South US...are so fascinating and ring entirely true for me. I have to echo having similar experiences. My ex (Price) and I first bonded over the fact that when he moved to TN as a single man, discussed dating/meeting new people, he was told that the best place to meet women was at church. Being the CT yankee he was, it was 'No way will I go to church just to meet women.' We worked for the same company and bonded over our rejection of that idea, among other things.
Impish....last but definintely not least...:) My sincerest thanks for giving my post such thoughtful consideration. I can always count on you. Your opinion means so much to me, as you well know. I think you are right on target that I err on the side of 'keeping the peace' when speaking my mind is a more right (and honest) course of action.
Peacekeeping is important but you're correct that if that causes me to temper/soften my honest opinion, it's not a true peace. I'm going to work on that. I don't tolerate racist or homophobic comments in my hearing - I call people on it and usually am very good about getting my point across without being confontational. Not that being confrontational is the worst thing - but it should be a last resort imo - people generally respond better when they're not feeling personally attacked. I've become more proactive about it since BBM...sorta a point of pride...
The spiritual beliefs are harder for me b/c there is such relativism, at least in my own mind. Definitely, in a group of reasonable people having a discussion, I would not be shy to express my opinion. But with some people, who already know me and where I stand, but still they insist on being evangelical, it does bother me to keep belaboring my own opinions...I don't know how much of that is a lack of desire for confrontation vs an aversion to an argument where we're not even starting from the same premises. To me, that just boils down to a lack of respect of my viewpoints. Since I think that's the core issue, that's the one that needs to be addressed first for me.
Thanks again, Impy, for understanding me and my issues.
-Lynne
Lebois:
Hey
I'm an atheist but here in France it's not a big issue, so i support you morally Impish :)
Good fight ;)
Lebois
Impish:
--- Quote from: YaadPyar on May 31, 2006, 10:52:58 am ---
My own experience with the issues raised in this thread is that truth doesn't need defending. Truth doesn't need proving. Truth doesn't need me to proclaim it to be so. It exists beyond me, and maybe in spite of me, but certainly not because of me.
--- End quote ---
I wish Truth didn't defending, but it does. I'm reading the book "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris (of the manifesto above), and he argues, quite convincingly, that the fundamentalists attack scientific knowledge with similar claims. "We believe what we believe even though there isn't a shred of evidence to support us. Evidence doesn't matter, because truth doesn't need defending." That sort of thing.
Consider the efforts to get creationism into science classes. That's not just trying to convert others to their mythology, it is also trying to change the very definition of science and how scientific inquiry operates. It is an effort to lessen the importance of reason in scientific methodology.
I know that their "truth" is not the same truth you're talking about, Yaadpyar, but that's the point. We do need to defend truth and how we go about discovering it.
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