The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
Why are the poor, poor?
Artiste:
The poor pay much more for junk, like Made in China items, made by slaves in China !!
Did you know?
brokeplex:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on May 01, 2008, 12:25:53 am ---We already have some Welfare reform in place don't we? Limited time to get the checks, the number of kids covered is now restricted to a certain number. We could improve and increase the criteria of receiving the benefits quite easily.
--- End quote ---
yes, you are correct, there has been some limited reform in the states since the 1980's and some reform at the federal level during the Clinton admin. These were and still are certainly welcome, but do not fix the fundamental problems.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: SunShadow on May 01, 2008, 02:01:35 pm --- But in the US we are taught, even if it is only implicitly, to look upon the wealthy as role models of what we would like to become, and upon their possessions as what we would like to have for our own.
--- End quote ---
Yes, that is the problem, I think. We are sympathetic toward the rich because we all assume we'll eventually be among them (me, I'm counting on Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes ;D ). For most people, of course, that won't happen. But the Land of Opportunity encourages us to think it's just a matter of time.
--- Quote ---Here I disagree. People are entitled to spend their money on whatever they want, as long as it is legal. He may be giving a ton of money to charity as well. There are a lot of wealthy out there living nicely who are not in the news, and that is fine. Hopefully they are giving back to society as well as enjoying their lifestyle.
--- End quote ---
I have mixed feelings. You're right, people are technically entitled to spend their money on anything legal. And it's true that this particular guy may give away a ton of money to charity.
Nevertheless, I'm disturbed by the degree of inequity that's built into the structure of the U.S. economy. Here's a list comparing CEO pay in developed countries to the amount earned by average workers:
Japan 11:1
Germany 12:1
France 15:1
Italy 20:1
Canada 20:1
South Africa 21:1
Britain 22:1
Hong Kong 41:1
Mexico 47:1
Venezuela 50:1
United States 475:1
(Note: This list is from an academic research paper by a business professor. I can't absolutely vouch for these particular numbers because I didn't want to spend lots of time doing research and comparisons. But these figures more or less match other such lists I've seen.)
Front-Ranger:
--- Quote from: seriouscrayons on May 01, 2008, 02:37:18 pm ---I'm disturbed by the degree of inequity that's built into the structure of the U.S. economy. Here's a list comparing CEO pay in developed countries to the amount earned by average workers:
Japan 11:1
Germany 12:1
France 15:1
Italy 20:1
Canada 20:1
South Africa 21:1
Britain 22:1
Hong Kong 41:1
Mexico 47:1
Venezuela 50:1
United States 475:1
(Note: This list is from an academic research paper by a business professor. I can't absolutely vouch for these particular numbers because I didn't want to spend lots of time doing research and comparisons. But these figures more or less match other such lists I've seen.)
--- End quote ---
I'm suspicious of this list. I need more information. For instance, what if there are only a handful of large corporations in those other countries, with many prospective CEOs to choose from, in contrast to the U.S. where there are hundreds of similar companies but only a few U.S. citizens capable of leading them? That would drive up the price significantly. Another thing, maybe CEOs in the U.S. serve an average of 4-7 years whereas those in other countries may serve 20 years or even more. The U.S. CEOs would need much more money.
Never thought I'd be an apologist for U.S. CEOs!!
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on May 01, 2008, 02:49:39 pm ---I'm suspicious of this list. I need more information. For instance, what if there are only a handful of large corporations in those other countries, with many prospective CEOs to choose from, in contrast to the U.S. where there are hundreds of similar companies but only a few U.S. citizens capable of leading them?
--- End quote ---
Glad to see you here, F-R! But ... sigh. ::) You're determined to make me do more research, aren't you? ;)
OK, well, to answer your first question, I'm not sure why the U.S. would have so few citizens capable of leading big companies. For example, Britain probably has fewer big companies, but it also has fewer citizens.
I'm not going to take the time to find the comparative figures on this. But it seems to me that big companies and people capable of leading them would be roughly proportionate from one country to the next. (And don't let's get into a discussion about the U.S. education system, broketrash! ;)) But maybe you're are thinking of something I'm missing.
--- Quote --- Another thing, maybe CEOs in the U.S. serve an average of 4-7 years whereas those in other countries may serve 20 years or even more. The U.S. CEOs would need much more money.
--- End quote ---
They NEED much more money? So John A. Thain of Merrill Lynch can't scrape by on, say, $10 million a year -- he's absolutely gotta have that $84 million, or he'll have to cancel the cable TV? If Lloyd C. Blankfein of Goldman Sachs took a cut from his $54 million annually, his kids would be eating store-brand macaroni for dinner? If John J. Mack of Morgan Stanley got anything less than $41 million, his wife would have to start taking in laundry?
I'd bet there are more than a few minimum-wage workers who might question whether John A. Thain needs a raise more than they do. If we're going to start paying "to each according to his needs" ... well, I'm not sure the CEOs would be the first to endorse that system! :laugh:
Here's more info in an article from the Forbes magazine website, not exactly a bastion for leftist class-warfare politics:
--- Quote ---Executive Pay
More In A Day Than In A Year
Steve McGookin, 08.29.07, 5:26 PM ET
As the nation prepares to celebrate a Labor Day holiday that will see the first increase in the federal minimum wage in 10 years, a new report shows that the gap in pay and compensation between workers and bosses is growing.
Indeed, according to the study, compiled jointly by the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy, corporate CEOs "collected as much money from one day on the job as average workers made over the entire year."
The report, "Executive Excess-The Staggering Social Cost of U.S. Business Leadership," also says that the private equity boom "has pushed the pay ceiling for American business leaders further into the economic stratosphere."
The 14th annual survey showed that CEOs at the biggest U.S. companies averaged $10.8 million in pay and associated compensation, including stock options, based on data from 386 of the Fortune 500 companies. That's more than 364 times the pay of the average American worker. Meanwhile, the survey says, the top 20 private equity and hedge fund managers, who work on a fee-based reward system linked to their funds under management, were paid an average of $675.5 million.
That is equivalent to 22,255 times the annual pay of an average American worker--or more in roughly 10 minutes than the average worker makes in a year, the study says. (In this survey, the "average" worker's salary is around $30,000 a year.)
Meanwhile, the new federal minimum wage, $5.85 an hour, is, in real terms, 7% below where the minimum wage stood 10 years ago, the survey says. It also notes that CEO pay and compensation over that same decade has increased by about 45%.
The survey also shows that American executives are in a dominant position when compared with their European counterparts. It found that in 2006, the 20 highest-paid European executives earned an average of $12.5 million, roughly one-third as much as the 20 highest-paid executives in the U.S.
--- End quote ---
Here's a NYT list of top-paid CEOs and their compensation. It also shows for each how their pay increase or decrease compares to the price of their company's stock. For example, Kenneth Chenault of American Express saw his pay raise 95 percent (to $50 million) while the company's stock fell 12 percent.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/04/05/business/20080405_EXECCOMP_GRAPHIC.html
And here's a lot MORE information in the report Forbes mentions by the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy. As you can probably tell from the title, "Executive Excess 2007: The Staggering Cost of U.S. Business Leadership" the IPS and UFE are not exactly right-wing organizations. (Note that this is a pdf):
http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/070829-executiveexcess.pdf
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