Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on June 05, 2006, 07:36:56 pm ---I think one of the things that Mendelsohn gets wrong is the idea that Ennis only now understands that Jack loved him. It's a beautiful sentence though. I'm quite sure that Ennis knew this all along...
--- End quote ---
I totally agree. Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority), and also bring home in a heartbreakingly concrete way the fact that Jack is gone and how little Ennis has to remember him by. But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.
When I go back and read reviews now, I'm always amazed at how superficial they are compared to the discussions we have here. Though not really surprised -- critics have to think and write incredibly fast, often formulating complex opinions on the basis of one viewing. I've never understood how they can do it.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 06, 2006, 01:46:41 am ---I totally agree. Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority), and also bring home in a heartbreakingly concrete way the fact that Jack is gone and how little Ennis has to remember him by. But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.
When I go back and read reviews now, I'm always amazed at how superficial they are compared to the discussions we have here. Though not really surprised -- critics have to think and write incredibly fast, often formulating complex opinions on the basis of one viewing. I've never understood how they can do it.
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Heya Katherine,
Yup, in our longstanding tradition, I agree too. :)
The part of Mendelsohn's line that I like best... is the idea that Ennis is made aware here of the "extent of his loss." I think this is true on many, many levels. But I hope against hope that not only did he know how much Jack loved him all along... but that he understood how much he loved Jack in return all along.
For me the focus of the film isn't about worrying too much about whether or not our boys loved each other (to me that's pretty clear)... I worry, and I think we're supposed to worry about the pressures their relationship faced and about how they chose to/ could find the courage to "honor" that love.
Anyway, yes, I think the discussions here and some from imdb far surpass some of even the best and most thoughtful reviews. Can you imagine what would happen if BetteMost Brokies got together and wrote a book or something? It would be one heck of an anthology of reviews, reflections, etc. about this film. Hmmm.... (to quote Ennis).
:)
welliwont:
--- Quote from: Mendelsohn’s review: --- …Made aware too late of how greatly he was loved, of the extent of his loss,
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--- Quote from: atz75 on June 05, 2006, 07:36:56 pm ---I think one of the things that Mendelsohn gets wrong is the idea that Ennis only now understands that Jack loved him. It's a beautiful sentence though. I'm quite sure that Ennis knew this all along... I think it was only a matter of articulating the situation clearly. This visual symbol was enough to wake Ennis up to the reality of their whole 20 year long relationship. And, I'm sure the shirts really did make Ennis aware of the extent of his loss.
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--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 06, 2006, 01:46:41 am ---I totally agree. Frankly, I've never liked that line, beautifully written or not. I think the shirts cause Ennis to see their relationship in a new way (he realizes he should should have made it his first priority) .... But I've never thought that Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.
--- End quote ---
Hello Amanda and Katherine:
You do not know me, but I surely do know you both from reading your many posts here! I have been deep into the study of BBM since the first time I saw it in the cinema, which was only on April 13th. Even after all this time I am still going around the coffee pot looking for the handle. I want to pin down every single nuance of this masterpiece, at which time I will write the book Amanda is callling for. I only hope I am worthy of this honour! ;D
Anyhoo, here is what I want to say/ask:
On the subject of "When did Ennis realize that Jack loved him?" Was it when he found the shirts together in the closet, or did he know this all along? Now cast your minds back to.... in the movie, the scene before TNIT, Jack says "Tell you what, truth is........ sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." And Ennis looks at Jack with an (undecipherable-to-me look) and says _________ NOTHING!!! (Damn you, Ennis!!)
Now if Ennis DID know all along how much Jack loved him, how do you interpret Ennis' expression and lack of reply to Jack's heartwrenching statement? How could he just sit there and not even say a word?! To me that's just cold!! (I know that in the 2003 screenplay they had Ennis replying "I know the feeling" but they dropped that line. I had a post about that topic a few weeks ago, here is the link http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1164.msg25418#msg25418, in fact, you replied to me then Katherine!)
Other posters have explained Ennis' lack of response as: Ennis is thinking to himself, "Oh damn, just wait 'till you hear the bad news about August". IMO that is Ennis being very oblivious and superficial. That Ennis really was that blind to Jack's love, did not realize that it was love, or did not realize how much Jack loved him. This interpretation of that scene fits with Mendelsohn's statement.
just a question... ;)
Perhaps one of the reasons I haven't finished my coffee yet is bcz of the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the movie and the story (and the screenplay). Maybe I will never be able to reconcile all the enigmas!
serious crayons:
Hi JakeTwist, nice to meet you. I looked up the post you mentioned, and I see that I answered it, only I addressed my answer to J. Did you used to be J, or did I make a mistake? If so, I apologize. Either way, glad you're here. Your post is interesting.
I think the "sometimes I wish you so much" scene may be an example of those permanently unreconciled enigmas you mention, where you just have to interpret it the way that makes most sense to you, or the way you'd most like to think of it.
I am happy to make excuses for Ennis in almost every one of his nonresponsive scenes, because they're usually accompanied by expressive nonverbal language. But this one really does bother me. I would love it if he'd said "I know what you mean" -- it wouldn't be so demonstrative as to be out of character, but it wouldn't have left Jack's big statement just hanging there unrequited.
However, I do tend to lean toward the "he feels guilty about what he has to say tomorrow" interpretation. For one thing, he clearly does feel guilty about it -- he is all nervous when he brings it up, and he waits til the last possible second to do so.
Also, I can't imagine what else he'd be thinking except that he does know what Jack means. Not "Really? That's funny, cause I sure don't miss you." No. He missed Jack like crazy during their four years apart. Sixteen years later, he has trained himself to stand it ... except that the very next morning, he confesses that he can't stand it no more. And there's another enigmatic line in itself. But I think that in view of the fact that "If you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it" is such a significant theme in the movie (and, for that matter, the story), it makes sense to pay attention when the word comes up.
So I guess, stretching as hard as I can to defend Ennis, the "stand it" part may be another part of the reason he remains silent. He's thinking, "Uh-oh, Jack can hardly stand it, but he's got to -- I have to skip August and I can't fix that." So he turns away, looking troubled.
starboardlight:
For me, Ennis's lack of response in that scene seems right. There's a difference between knowing that you're loved and being able to express the love back. Ennis still struggles with the latter, even though he understands how Jack feels about him. The look he gives Jack shows that he takes Jack's words seriously. There are times when you get overwhelmed with an emotion, and you just get paralyzed with not knowing what to say or how to react. (Dam! I'm still such an Ennis) For me, the scene doesn't contradict the interpretation that Ennis knows that Jack loves him.
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