Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
Report your use of Brokieisms in so-called "real life"
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 29, 2013, 07:02:02 pm ---Be prepared for a wh-o-o-o-le lot of argument about that! :laugh:
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:laugh:
--- Quote from: Luvlylittlewing on September 29, 2013, 07:47:08 pm ---Indeed! Even after all these years (and after reading the story, the screenplay and watching the movie at least 25 times) I'm not sure how Jack died! :-\
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I'm surprised, M! I thought you were convinced, as I was, by Clancy's argument.
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on September 30, 2013, 03:40:48 am ---About the phrase "he knew it":
Put the emphasis on the other word
not "he KNEW it",
but "HE knew it".
Ennis "knew". For Ennis it was clear as day, he was certain. But this certainty is inside Ennis' head, it's not an absolute.
And even for Ennis, this certainty was only in that moment. Later on, "there was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe".
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My computer is slow today and I have to get to work, so I only have time for a few quick comments on why I firmly believe Jack was killed the way Lureen said. My belief rests on ideas about how literature works and what the overarching theme of the story is, which may not be convincing to everybody. But here goes:
1) The scene of Jack getting murdered exists only in Ennis' mind. Ennis has been consumed by fear, almost his whole life, that the consequence for gay relationships is death by tire iron. So what are the chances that Jack would die in exactly that way?
2) Even if you interpret "tire iron" as a symbol representing murder by any means, the very fact that Ennis fully expects it makes him an unreliable source of information about it. So the fact that he "knew" it -- with no other evidence do go on outside of Jack's freak-accident, isolated death -- does not imply that we, the viewers/readers, should also "know" it. Ennis is not us.
3) We already know that Ennis has a somewhat exaggerated fear of the way people on the pavement would respond if they knew about Jack and Ennis. The Rich and Earl episode was horrific and emotionally scarring for Ennis, but others -- Aguirre, Alma, the bartender, the guys around the pool table, the Twists -- may be homophobic, but they do not react as extremely as Ennis might expect them to. (He didn't see the bartender and pool players, but we do; they may or may not be contemptuous -- even that's not entirely clear, and could be a result of still further paranoia! In any case, they're not violent.)
4) That indicates that a lot of the crippling effects of societal homophobia exist not just in real life (see treatment of Earl and Rich), but in the heads of the people whose lives are constrained by it. Societal homophobia not only damages lives, in other words (by keeping people who love each other apart), but it actually reaches in and damages souls, like Ennis', by making them afraid to be true to themselves.
5) All of this makes more sense from a literary standpoint, because it's a more powerful and interesting theme than, "Ennis always expected a gay man to be murdered, so he avoided a committed relationship, and sure enough then Jack was murdered. The end." Indeed, that would prove Ennis was smart all along to avoid committing to Jack. I don't think that's the point we're supposed to take from BBM.
6) Even "Ennis always expected a gay man to be murdered, so he avoided a committed relationship, and sure enough then Jack might have been murdered, though we'll never know for sure" strikes me as a less interesting narrative than "societal homophobia screwed up Ennis' life by permanently afflicting him with internalized homophobia."
There are a few counterarguments, including the scene with the mechanics that was filmed but not included (seen in trailer), which suggests that Ang Lee interprets the death as intentionally ambiguous and decided the mechanics made it less so. Also, if Annie Proulx said so in an interview, then maybe she does, too (unless she was being coy).
Thanks much to ClancyPants of IMDb, who presented that interpretation after reportedly watching and reading BBM hundreds if not thousands of times, and convinced me, a former "we're not supposed to know"ist.
x-man:
I am a bit troubled by what you have said, but given your argument as a whole, and the comments by others, you have convinced me that Jack's death was probably as Lureen described it. That Jack's death would exactly match Earl's is not likely. But I am not willing to put down the tire iron just yet.
If you have the chance, check out my comments about internalized homophobia, particularly the way it affects Ennis, on "How would Lureen have reacted if..." I wrote that before I read what you say here, but while I might now nuance what I said there, I stand by my original point that Ennis was not homophobic in the way we usually use the word, that "homophobic" applied to him means fear of death, and, by extension to us--but not necessarily to Ennis--being hurt. In calling Ennis' fear of what people would think if they knew "overly exaggerated" I think you are only seeing part of the problem. Internalized homophobia is not just fear of what others might do to you if they knew, but the feeling that you are sick, sinful, worthless, despicable, and all the other words of self-loathing--feelings put there by parents, the Aguirres, the Almas, and others who might not necessarily try to kill you, but let you know what a miserable piece of shit you really are. I respectfully suggest that as a straight person you cannot know how devastating that can be, and how liberating it is to be free of it. This is why I give Ennis more credit. He was not homophobic in this sense, but legitimately afraid of what being open would bring down around him.
The overall message of the film and story may well be, as you suggest in your point 4, that "Societal homophobia not only damages lives...but...reaches in and damages souls," but does that simple message really get to the heart of the matter? Is it why so many people were/are so profoundly moved? In my case it was not. I knew all too well the world in which Jack and Ennis played out their lives. It was the realization that we have to get out of that worldview that did it for me. In the young, the point of the story and movie is a call to action, in the old, sadly, regret.
BTW, when you speak of the bartender and the men standing around the pool table, you are, I presume, referring to the scene where Jack meets the rodeo clown. What are you pointing to about the bartender? Was his suggestion to Jack any more than what he said? The clown refuses Jack, saying that lots of grateful rodeo cowboys want to buy him a drink. When he moves off to the pool table, are you imagining that, in gesturing back at the bar, he is saying, "That guy just tried to hit on me"? The others do not laugh, or suddenly look over at the bar. Men, gay or straight, do not regard every gesture of friendship by another man as a sexual come-on.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: x-man on October 01, 2013, 03:17:04 pm --- In calling Ennis' fear of what people would think if they knew "overly exaggerated" I think you are only seeing part of the problem. Internalized homophobia is not just fear of what others might do to you if they knew, but the feeling that you are sick, sinful, worthless, despicable, and all the other words of self-loathing--feelings put there by parents, the Aguirres, the Almas, and others who might not necessarily try to kill you, but let you know what a miserable piece of shit you really are. I respectfully suggest that as a straight person you cannot know how devastating that can be, and how liberating it is to be free of it. This is why I give Ennis more credit. He was not homophobic in this sense, but legitimately afraid of what being open would bring down around him.
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I agree with you that as a straight person I can't know exactly how a gay person feels (though keep in mind that we're talking about a story written by a straight woman). But I disagree on your other point -- I think Ennis IS homophobic in that self-loathing sense. Both the book and movie make references that imply Ennis was extremely uncomfortable about his sexual orientation, even when just alone with Jack-- in the book, for example, Ennis will only hold Jack from behind. I think when Ennis says, "You know I ain't queer," he's expressing both what he thinks being "queer" means -- a shameful thing -- and his own wish not to face that he fits that label. I think the rational fear instilled by his earlier experiences came accompanied by feelings of shame and sickness.
--- Quote ---The overall message of the film and story may well be, as you suggest in your point 4, that "Societal homophobia not only damages lives...but...reaches in and damages souls," but does that simple message really get to the heart of the matter? Is it why so many people were/are so profoundly moved? In my case it was not. I knew all too well the world in which Jack and Ennis played out their lives. It was the realization that we have to get out of that worldview that did it for me. In the young, the point of the story and movie is a call to action, in the old, sadly, regret.
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I think that's the literary/cinematic theme, but not necessarily the reason people are profoundly moved. Or maybe more to the point, a summary of the plot could include both elements. Ennis' homophobia-damaged soul leads him to miss his call to action and live the rest of his life with regrets.
--- Quote ---BTW, when you speak of the bartender and the men standing around the pool table, you are, I presume, referring to the scene where Jack meets the rodeo clown. What are you pointing to about the bartender? Was his suggestion to Jack any more than what he said? The clown refuses Jack, saying that lots of grateful rodeo cowboys want to buy him a drink. When he moves off to the pool table, are you imagining that, in gesturing back at the bar, he is saying, "That guy just tried to hit on me"? The others do not laugh, or suddenly look over at the bar. Men, gay or straight, do not regard every gesture of friendship by another man as a sexual come-on.
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I think we're meant to see the men's and the bartender's behavior as at least ambiguous, possibly including hostility or even danger but not necessarily, a reflection of what Jack experiences as he goes through life; he can never know how people will react to him, but he's willing to take a chance anyway. As far as the scene goes, under other circumstances we might not think a thing about either the pool players or the bartender. But we know it's a homophobic society, that Jack is taking a risk by hitting on Jimbo, that the bartender is likely to overhear and disapprove, that Jimbo lashes back at the offer and then goes over to talk to a group of tough men holding long sticks. That all seems threatening, under the circumstances. That a real threat does not materialize may or may not be a lucky break, as Jack probably realizes. He may not have shared Ennis' horrifying early experiences, but he certainly knows how his society feels.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on October 01, 2013, 06:32:01 pm ---a group of tough men holding long sticks
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When you put it that way, it almost seems pornographic. ... ;)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on October 01, 2013, 07:09:35 pm ---When you put it that way, it almost seems pornographic. ... ;)
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:laugh: And most of them are erect!
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