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Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll

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pastorfred:

Wow! This discussion of the re-reading is getting off to a great start.

Thanks, Richard, for your observation. It's a most helpful idea for us to use as a lens for looking back at the beginning of the Saga.

I think the journal is much more than a necessary plot device. Many young men do write down thoughts, with no intention of anyone else ever seeing them. I did so myself, and when I found my words from the age of Jack and Ennis, I was in my mid-forties, and I disposed of them quickly. Jack did not have that opportunity, so they became, blessedly and importantly, an impetus for self reflection on the part of Ennis.

As we reflect on Jack's journal, I think it's very important to consider that the characters of Ennis and Jack in the Laramie Saga are based more on the short story by Annie Proulx than the screenplay of the magnificent movie.

I want to add my own heartfelt thanks to Louise and to all who are continuing the discussion of this truly great work, the Laramie Saga.

magicmountain:
I would like to share my thoughts about the evolution of Ellery's character. I don't know about the rest of you but my image of Ellery changed from my initial impression in these early chapters from a physical and a personality perspective.

When he first arrived on the scene, based on the description given, I pictured him as a big, broad shouldered guy with large hands and a deep voice ("a voice as deep as Ennis'"). This changed as the story proceeded as he emerged as someone rail thin, with thin fingers and fairly narrow shoulders. I developed a more feminised view of him based on this (counteracted of course by the pix of Hugh who is definitely less than delicate!) So my mental picture is still a bit confused here!

Secondly my view of Ellery's personality in terms of his attitude to women has changed. In these early chapters Ellery actually flirts with women and even smacks the backside of a waitress. I gained the impression that he liked women because the women he came across (waitresses and Carol at the police  station) seemed to succumb to his charm. I feel these women would only respond that way if they felt Ellery genuinely at some level liked them and surely he would only put out the charm if he did like them. But as the story progressed Ellery seemed to like women less and less and no longer went out of his way to act charming with them. Has anyone else noticed this change and have an explanation for this?

MaineWriter:
Thinking about the diary...

We found old diaries in our house (it was built in 1803) and many of them had daily one line entries: listing the temperature, discussing the weather, maybe some other comment. I wonder if Old Man Twist was in the habit of keeping such a diary and Jack picked up the habit from him?

Maybe his father even gave him the book before he left for Brokeback that summer? Jack never intended to write anything in it, but then when he was alone there with Ennis and his thoughts, he started jotting down a one line comment every now and again?

L

louisev:

--- Quote from: magicmountain on December 04, 2006, 09:34:49 pm ---I would like to share my thoughts about the evolution of Ellery's character. I don't know about the rest of you but my image of Ellery changed from my initial impression in these early chapters from a physical and a personality perspective.

When he first arrived on the scene, based on the description given, I pictured him as a big, broad shouldered guy with large hands and a deep voice ("a voice as deep as Ennis'"). This changed as the story proceeded as he emerged as someone rail thin, with thin fingers and fairly narrow shoulders. I developed a more feminised view of him based on this (counteracted of course by the pix of Hugh who is definitely less than delicate!) So my mental picture is still a bit confused here!

Secondly my view of Ellery's personality in terms of his attitude to women has changed. In these early chapters Ellery actually flirts with women and even smacks the backside of a waitress. I gained the impression that he liked women because the women he came across (waitresses and Carol at the police  station) seemed to succumb to his charm. I feel these women would only respond that way if they felt Ellery genuinely at some level liked them and surely he would only put out the charm if he did like them. But as the story progressed Ellery seemed to like women less and less and no longer went out of his way to act charming with them. Has anyone else noticed this change and have an explanation for this?

--- End quote ---

I changed Ellery's physical description (sparse as it was) based in part on the pictures of Hugh once he was cast - there was no confusing those hands with the wider hands of the original character I had based upon Keith Carradine, whom I had seen in a film.

The view of Ellery's flirtatiousness was from Ennis's point of view.  I changed the point of view from Ennis after, I believe, the middle of the second volume when Ellery began his investigation, and the POV went back and forth.  But the first book, "Taking Chances" was entirely Ennis's point of view.  Ennis, being attracted to Ellery, was hypersensitive to any and all reactions women had to Ellery.

Ellery's own views are somewhat different, and he himself, whether or not he ever laid on any charm, did not observe this in himself in the later texts, most notably because he would probably not be aware of his "covering" behavior.

Another important point here is that Ellery's behavior was profoundly affected by his relationship with Ennis, and he would have changed how he acted around women, particularly, since he would be aware that being flirtatious (or pretending to be) would annoy Ennis or even anger him.

Those are my own thoughts... however, my own view of the character did change as well, and in my 2nd draft I might find that the "evolution" actually constituted a drift in my conception of Ellery as a character and I will have to modify things.

(I've made a few disclaimers regarding the "draft" nature of the Saga.  This would be a second edit function.)  My finished novels have gone through a minimum of four edits, and I usually catch character drift in the 2nd and sometimes 3rd edit.

magicmountain:

--- Quote from: louisev on December 04, 2006, 10:56:10 pm ---
The view of Ellery's flirtatiousness was from Ennis's point of view.  I changed the point of view from Ennis after, I believe, the middle of the second volume when Ellery began his investigation, and the POV went back and forth.  But the first book, "Taking Chances" was entirely Ennis's point of view.  Ennis, being attracted to Ellery, was hypersensitive to any and all reactions women had to Ellery.

Ellery's own views are somewhat different, and he himself, whether or not he ever laid on any charm, did not observe this in himself in the later texts, most notably because he would probably not be aware of his "covering" behavior.

Another important point here is that Ellery's behavior was profoundly affected by his relationship with Ennis, and he would have changed how he acted around women, particularly, since he would be aware that being flirtatious (or pretending to be) would annoy Ennis or even anger him.


--- End quote ---

A lot of that makes sense - particularly the influence of his developing relationship with jealous Ennis. Although I hadn't thought of Ellery's charming the women as covering behaviour - just the behaviour of a confident, attractive extrovert with natural charm. I still feel he went from seeming to have a neutral/reasonably friendly view of women to an attitude of suspicious dislike - but maybe I misinterpreted his earlier attitude.

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