Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll

[gn411]

WOW, What a weekend E & E had.  Great Job Louise. 

ALL:  Question,  At what point, Where or when in the story did (your opinion) Ennis fall in love with Ellery? And the same question, when did Ellery fall in love with Ennis.

[louisev]

okay gang, the good news is I finished my change order and I'm waiting for the PM, that means I am in chat and working on chapter er, what chapter is it? 72? 73? I cant remember

[pastorfred]

Pastorfred can you briefly telll us what in your view these Ennis/Jackarchetypes represent and how far Ellery might be in some way an extension of Jack as well as a unique persona in his own right? Sorry if this sounds like an exam question!!!

I love this question! I could write an essay, but you asked for a brief response. I hope we'll discuss the archetype question a lot more.

Ennis and Jack are archetypes of men who love each other, like Achilles and Patroclus or David and Jonathan. They bring the archetypes into our own time, and their tragedy leads all of us to examine our loves and lives.

Ellery is very much his own man, a participant in the archetype of Ennis and Jack, as would be any man who loves another man "like life itself." He is also a paradigm in his own right, a man who is comfortable in his own skin, emotionally balanced and generous. I'm thinking that there is a kind of forming archetype around him: We all have known people who help us take the next step in our growth as a person.

One of the most beautiful aspects of the love between Ennis and Ellery is the way they draw strength from each other. Each man is more fully himself because of the relationship they share. As Ennis comes out of his emotional repression, he is able to provide Ellery the safe haven for healing and growth that Ellery has given him. That is a paradigm for a love relationship to benefit all of us.

[louisev]

WOW, What a weekend E & E had.  Great Job Louise. 

ALL:  Question,  At what point, Where or when in the story did (your opinion) Ennis fall in love with Ellery? And the same question, when did Ellery fall in love with Ennis.

oooh, difficult question.

I think Ellery fell in love with Ennis when Ennis took his first trip to Brokeback, and Ellery realized that he was in deep grief about Jack.  He wanted a man who could feel like that, who felt he had to go up to the mountain to make peace with Jack and grieve him after sleeping with Ellery.

I think Ennis fell in love with Ellery when he found himself fantasizing about him while he was on Brokeback and he realized it was possible for him to recover from grieving Jack.

[gn411]

Pastor Fred:
One of the most beautiful aspects of the love between Ennis and Ellery is the way they draw strength from each other. Each man is more fully himself because of the relationship they share. As Ennis comes out of his emotional repression, he is able to provide Ellery the safe haven for healing and growth that Ellery has given him. That is a paradigm for a love relationship to benefit all of us.

Like your point,  Now the next step.  Ellery is providing Ennis Love, room to grow, a safe environment.

What is Ennis providing Ellery? 

[louisev]

Pastor Fred:
One of the most beautiful aspects of the love between Ennis and Ellery is the way they draw strength from each other. Each man is more fully himself because of the relationship they share. As Ennis comes out of his emotional repression, he is able to provide Ellery the safe haven for healing and growth that Ellery has given him. That is a paradigm for a love relationship to benefit all of us.

Like your point,  Now the next step.  Ellery is providing Ennis Love, room to grow, a safe environment.

What is Ennis providing Ellery? 

Well, from my viewpoint, Ennis is someone who is manly and strong who isn't violent or controlling of Ellery  in a sexual way.  The need to submit is intimately related to Ellery's need for nurturing, and this is manifested in how Ennis cleans up, makes food, and does other caretaking chores without ever being asked.  Ennis is doing his part to care for both of them, so both of those elements are there.   All of that hot fast hard sex, too, don't forget (like anyone is going to forget, here,) and a willingness to indulge Ellery's undoubtedly kinky side, which has introduced Ennis to a side of sex he only glimpsed when he got inspired one day to tie Jack down.  Ellery didn't ask for Ennis to tie him up until he learned of this event, and it opened up a world for both of them, and a little mention of spanking one day opened that avenue as well.

One thing that has really only begun to unfold is Ellery's realization that Ennis is someone he can lean on when HE falls apart, too.  It isn't all about being queer and accepting it, there is a world of scary emotions and the scars of the past, and while he has had Wes and Edna to lean on, he has always been reluctant to take their support.  He accepts help far more readily from Ennis, and in a form that he accepts it.  (A spontaneous bedroom encounter - or two -  after an emotional rollercoaster can do wonders for the self esteem.)

[MaineWriter]

WOW, What a weekend E & E had.  Great Job Louise. 

ALL:  Question,  At what point, Where or when in the story did (your opinion) Ennis fall in love with Ellery? And the same question, when did Ellery fall in love with Ennis.

I love these kinds of questions and could spend hours re-reading to come up with a long, involved answer....unfortunately...I really need to do some work here today, I am too far behind!

Quick answer....for Ellery, at least. I think when he made his comment about his theory, "I have a theory, we are fallling in love," he was in love at that point. I think he said this as a way to warm Ennis up to the idea. Ellery could see what was happening and that Ennis was falling, too, but knew that it would be harder and take longer for Ennis to actually recognize and accept the feelling and then put it in words. In fact, the first time Ennis did verbalize it, he didn't say "I love you," he said, "I do too" (I think that's it) in response to Ellery's statement, "You do know that's how I feel?"

L

[MaineWriter]

The statistician in me just can't resist some of this stuff:

This is the current most replies list..
    
"ABCs of BROKEBACK MT."                  4727
Lines from BBM visualized                       3701
NC-17 RATED FUN: LET'S GET REAL HERE--      2375
"The Person Below Me" Game                 1524
~~THE PERFORMANCE!~~ =                          1266
Let's write a Brokeback limerick!              1222
Ennis and Ellery                                      954
The 1000+ Posts Club                                636
So what do we look like, anyway?            588
Jake Jake Jake!                                     580

Notice that our Ennis and Ellery is the only one on this list that is not a game or some other sort of fun thing. Sure, we have fun with the galleries and stuff, but we also have discussion and commentary going on, something that is not on any of those other threads.

L
   

[louisev]

well yee haw!  What does that say about people at Bettermost "movin on"?

[gn411]

Louise,  Thanks for the authors perspective.  You have heard me say this before.  Your stories are better than anything on TV.  And so is the way you have developed Ennis and Ellery.

One of the aspects of my thinking about what do the guys bring each other is that Ellery in alot of ways is sort of like Henry Higgins in My Fair Lady. While Ennis is like the Eliza Doolittle character.  Still what was the ultimate attraction.

Ellery had this relationship with Bill, But it is obviouse after Beagle and 20 years that they were just wasting time with each other, because Ellery does not have the same reacton to Bill as he did to Beagle.  

I think it Boils down to Ellery needing to be needed.  He likes the way Ennis nurtures him and takes care of him.  But Ennis needed him in a deep level. Not for what Ellery could monetarly provide, but All Emotion.  Ellery can take care of all his own  needs, EXCEPT having another person need him.  Bill did not need Ellery. Probably used him and his position at the sheriff's department as a cover for whatever he was doing.  

Ellery needed Ennis.  Ennis brings with him a sense of family, which Ellery might have been lacking. And ( I am having a hard time articulating here) that Ellery likes some of Ennis's baggage, ie... his kids. And wouldn't mind getting to know and be needed in a parental type way by Junior.  

Anyway,  We all have our own thoughts about what makes these guys tick.  Its great to see the relationship develope way beyond just a sexual attraction and delve deep into trust and the way Ennis was there for Ellery when he was wasted after his meeting with Beagle.  Ennis never considered getting offended. It was just so (words ?) ....   satisfying to someone who has followed the story from the beginning (movie) to now! Yea,  satisfying.   Thanks