Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
serious crayons:
I think JakeTwist's thread title is excellent (and kudos to JakeTwist for suggesting it, since if understand her correctly -- and I know, Jane, you'll correct me if I'm wrong -- she's been known to argue more or less the opposite position on that point; but she is very open-minded :D :-*).
Ruthlessly, you can change the subject line the same way you change the text of a post. In other words, go back to your original post and click "modify" at the top, then write the new title in. You might consider adding "(Formerly, 'Hello - I'm new here')" for clarification.
To insert a link to a thread, copy the thread's URL and paste it into your post. Then highlight the URL in your post and click the icon above with the little globe on it, which will automatically put "url" and "/url" in brackets around the URL (or you can write that coding in manually).
Back to your previous post, Ruthlessly, and your analysis of why Ennis doesn't recognize that he loves Jack. Your individual arguments make sense, but overall I respectfully disagree about what they add up to. That comes from my belief that Ennis is, well, hypocritical. When he says "You know I ain't queer," he is only slightly more sincere than Jack saying "Me neither" -- and Jack isn't sincere at all (he's just trying to calm Ennis). They're both posturing. Ennis holds an image in his mind of "queerness" and all the unappealing things he connects with that term and wants disassociate from. But deep down he knows full well he's attracted to Jack and to men in general -- he's may have been desperately repressing it for years because he's ashamed of it, but it hasn't escaped his own notice -- and he understands what that implies. (We see him in the act of repression in the scene where Jack momentarily loses control of the crow-hopping horse and then rides away, and Ennis leans out to check him out as he rides off, then half a second later catches himself and turns back to the dishes.)
When he tells Jack about his fears of what would happen if "this thing ... grabs hold of us" it's because he doesn't trust himself to keep his feelings hidden and controlled. And with good reason -- he failed to do just that in the parking lot the day before. And years later, when he asks whether Jack worries about people in town and out on the pavement "knowing," it's an indication that Ennis himself "knows."
As for love, though I think it's possible for people to fail to recognize other people's love when it's under their noses, I don't think I agree that people often fail to recognize their own love. It's such an intense, thrilling, painful, overwhelming feeling -- hard to ignore. It grabs hold of you! In the wrong place and wrong time! It can make you cry in an alley, pine for somebody for four f'in years, get all excited when you think you'll finally see them, sit there all day peering out a window, take the stairs two at a time and throw yourself into their arms, risk alienating your wife, risk losing your job, risk people finding out the one thing you can't face anybody knowing. And despite all these dangers you light up with joy when you come in contact with the person you love. It contradicts my understanding of human nature to think of people behaving in all those ways without noticing they're doing it and guessing what it all adds up to, whatever name they choose to give it.
So I think what Ennis realizes at the end is that he shouldn't have let his fear and shame stand in the way of his love for Jack, that he should have honored that love rather than tried to hide it and follow society's rules. That's why the question he asks Alma Jr. is whether this Kurt fella loves her. He has come to see that love outweighs all other considerations.
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 27, 2006, 08:45:34 pm --- Ennis conquered this bear (OMT, Ennis' fears) by defiantly walking past him, determinedly holding Jack (the shirts), sort of in public.
--- End quote ---
Great point. I have noticed that he sort of protectively shelters the shirts when he walks past OMT. Which is significant in itself -- it's his way of protecting Jack. But visiting the Twists is sort of Ennis' coming out, and defiantly walking past Mr. Twist with shirts in hand, sheltering but not hiding them, is a good way to illustrate that he can finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances anyway, face the prospect that people "know."
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on June 27, 2006, 08:46:07 pm ---How about "It wasn't all Ennis' fault after all" :D ;)
--- End quote ---
JakeTwist won the "Re-Name Ruthlessly's First Post" Contest! (Although I did like "Gone With Jack's Wind"...)
With honorable mention to latjoreme for the "formerly" part!
You may pick up your prizes at Don Wroe's cabin anytime in the next four f-in' years. A lifetime supply of BetterMost Beans -- the Brokeback Treat!
:laugh: ;D :D :laugh:
welliwont:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 28, 2006, 01:54:47 am ---
Finally, to everyone... Is JakeTwist's thread title OK with everyone? And just HOW do I change the thread title? And, how do I insert a link to a thread into a post?
--- End quote ---
I'll tell you how Ruthie:
Since you are the author of the OP (original post) you can modify it at any time. All you have to do is click on it, and modify it! I am flattered that you liked my suggestion, kinda like I wrote the whole OP, right? LOLOL! ;) :D ;D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 28, 2006, 01:54:47 am ---
The fact that Ennis didn’t verbally respond to "Sometimes I miss you so much..." always bugged me.
--- End quote ---
I have always felt the same way, exactly the same way!!!. I have posted about this before in fact... Ruthie you and I see eye to eye on just about every aspect of this masterpiece, except for one or two little things...
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#1: this is sooo minor, I am almost embarassed to bring it up, but... why do you say Ennis' fears are being magnified and his paranoia is increasing?
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on June 25, 2006, 05:58:39 pm ---Jack, through his failure at this point, set them up for twenty years of Ennis’ fears being magnified and his paranoia increasing, until it got to the point that it could not be overcome.
--- End quote ---
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#2: I think your whole OP is awsome, and I think it is near-indisputable, even if I have not been able to find the time to read all the replies to it yet... every f'n day!!
I am the Continuity Director of Broke Arsed Mountain, doncha-know!!!
but please to explain, (and maybe you can!) how the following scene fits together with your masterful analysis, I think there is some contradiction happenin' here, no?
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on June 18, 2006, 12:24:47 pm ---If they were trying to keep up the pretense, then how does that reconcile with a prior camping trip when Ennis asks Jack does her ever get the feeling that people "know" -- ok now that is yet another line you and I can discuss back and forth Katherine, because to me Ennis' saying that is kind of an admission that there is someting to "know".
Does Ennis think that people "know" that he does things with his best bud Jack?
or
is he thinking that they "know" that he is homosexual?
If it is the latter, then why does he blow up at Jack during the fight "All them things that I don't know, could get you killed if I should come to know 'em"? Because that line has been explained to me as: the reason Enns blows a gasket is bcz if Jack goes to Mexico to visit male prostitutes that makes Jack gay, and if Jack is gay ergo Ennis is gay too.
Huhmmmm.
--- End quote ---
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 28, 2006, 03:22:12 am ---
Back to your previous post, Ruthlessly, and your analysis of why Ennis doesn't recognize that he loves Jack. Your individual arguments make sense, but overall I respectfully disagree about what they add up to. That comes from my belief that Ennis is, well, hypocritical. When he says "You know I ain't queer," he is only slightly more sincere than Jack saying "Me neither" -- and Jack isn't sincere at all (he's just trying to calm Ennis). They're both posturing. Ennis holds an image in his mind of "queerness" and all the unappealing things he connects with that term and wants disassociate from. But deep down he knows full well he's attracted to Jack and to men in general -- he's may have been desperately repressing it for years because he's ashamed of it, but it hasn't escaped his own notice -- and he understands what that implies. (We see him in the act of repression in the scene where Jack momentarily loses control of the crow-hopping horse and then rides away, and Ennis leans out to check him out as he rides off, then half a second later catches himself and turns back to the dishes.)
--- End quote ---
Yes. I agree. But, I'll also add that for every scene and for every line there is almost always text, subtext, and metaphor. I think what you have pointed out about the "queer" comments is a take on the text, and I agree with that. But I take it a little more as metaphor for his fears running throughout the film. I also think that there's two parts to Jack's "Me neither" response. I think in one way he knows what to say and what not to say to Ennis, but I also think he also believes, to an extent, what he is saying. I don’t feel that at this stage he's "out." He's not yet 20. And he's a dreamer. I just don’t see him as being that grounded at this point. He's gone through the same things as Ennis has, as all teenage boys have, with regards to "queer" comments -- the ultimate putdown from one teenage male to another. Very few, if any, teenagers of that time and place would have been able to completely dismiss the messages pumped into them by their peers. Jack's got issues too.
--- Quote ---When he tells Jack about his fears of what would happen if "this thing ... grabs hold of us" it's because he doesn't trust himself to keep his feelings hidden and controlled. And with good reason -- he failed to do just that in the parking lot the day before. And years later, when he asks whether Jack worries about people in town and out on the pavement "knowing," it's an indication that Ennis himself "knows."
--- End quote ---
But "know" what? That he IS a homosexual? I just can't go there. He's in constant denial. When he speaks of people "knowing," I believe, that to Ennis it means people "knowing that WE do this stuff that we're not supposed to be doing."
Now, I do believe that Ennis is gay. But, it's hard to disagree with those who say that the film paints a pretty good picture of Ennis as a man who happened to fall in love with another man. I really think that Ennis believes with all his might that his "thing" with Jack is a "thing" JUST with Jack.
I complexly agree with the first two sentences of the quoted part.
--- Quote ---As for love, though I think it's possible for people to fail to recognize other people's love when it's under their noses, I don't think I agree that people often fail to recognize their own love. It's such an intense, thrilling, painful, overwhelming feeling -- hard to ignore. It grabs hold of you! In the wrong place and wrong time! It can make you cry in an alley, pine for somebody for four f'in years, get all excited when you think you'll finally see them, sit there all day peering out a window, take the stairs two at a time and throw yourself into their arms, risk alienating your wife, risk losing your job, risk people finding out the one thing you can't face anybody knowing. And despite all these dangers you light up with joy when you come in contact with the person you love. It contradicts my understanding of human nature to think of people behaving in all those ways without noticing they're doing it and guessing what it all adds up to, whatever name they choose to give it.
--- End quote ---
This, to me, is the crux of the argument. I agree completely with all you said here. But when we get to "whatever name they choose to give it," that's where we need to look at the name Ennis chose to give it. He called it a "thing." He didn't say "love." I believe that this is because Ennis just is not capable of understanding just what it is ... or better put, that he is just not in a place in his life, in his development, to understand just what it is. I believe that comes later... Cassie, Lureen, OMT, the shirts, Junior. In my normal daily speech when I cannot think of the word that I know is what I want to use, I say "thing" or "stuff" and I let it stand on its own. Ennis used the word "thing" because he couldn’t figure out what the right word would be. Remember, he knew the word "queer." But he certainly didn't say "When we get queer with each other..."
--- Quote ---So I think what Ennis realizes at the end is that he shouldn't have let his fear and shame stand in the way of his love for Jack, that he should have honored that love rather than tried to hide it and follow society's rules. That's why the question he asks Alma Jr. is whether this Kurt fella loves her. He has come to see that love outweighs all other considerations.
--- End quote ---
I respect this interpretation ... can you see my big BUT coming? Buuuutttt... :laugh: Isn't this an enormous leap from where he was a little while ago? I've certainly admitted that I think he experiences some understanding and some change (starting with Cassie and her light switch), but... we are talking about Ennis here after all. No doubt he is suffused with regret. No doubt he will cry and feel sick to his stomach. And I have said that at the Jack's closet moment is when I believe that he has come to realize that Jack "loved" him... and I'll even go so far as to say that Ennis even admits to himself, in his deepest, darkest, quietest place that he loved Jack. After all, it's generally agreed that the final trailer scene is something like six months after the Jack's closet scene (Jack's closet being before November and final trailer being the next Spring) and yet he still acted with his standard knee-jerk reaction to Alma's desire to have him at her wedding. He's learning, no doubt, but he's still Ennis Del Mar. (Have I earned my user name yet?) ;)
--- Quote ---But visiting the Twists is sort of Ennis' coming out, and defiantly walking past Mr. Twist with shirts in hand, sheltering but not hiding them, is a good way to illustrate that he can finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances anyway, face the prospect that people "know."
--- End quote ---
I agree. But you'd better watch out there. With all of those qualifications (finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances) you're sounding like me. ;D
welliwont:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 28, 2006, 03:22:12 am ---
...since if understand her correctly -- and I know, Jane, you'll correct me if I'm wrong -- she's been known to argue more or less the opposite position on that point; but she is very open-minded :D :-*).
--- End quote ---
Yeah, you're right on the money there Katherine! (Actually, it's all part of my master plan, get Ruthie to re-name her OP, and then volley and lambast that heretic thread!!! It's all a trick!)
Anyway K & R, it's past my bedtime, cu later, aren't you glad you've found each other, you two go together like milk and water!! 8) :D
ttyl,
J
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