Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
serious crayons:
This is getting to be a strange thread. Instead of everybody debating in multiple directions, most of the posts seem to be one-on-one debates with Ruthlessly. But -- what can I say? -- here I go doing the same.
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 01, 2006, 03:23:11 pm ---This is a good question, but it's probably best answered by what you've said you've observed in the real world. You've pointed out that there are people who don't struggle with internalized homophobia... and we know that there are people who struggle with it (Ennis, for example – he’s real world, isn’t he?). Different kinds of people in different kinds of situations with different needs and different agendas. Ennis just happens to fall into his particular category, into which I'm sure there are still a lot of other people who fall.
--- End quote ---
But I'm not discounting Ennis' internalized homophobia in shaping his reaction. I'm sure, in fact, that's a factor. But I prefer to be inclusive. To me, boiling it down to JUST homophobia seems to remove Ennis from the real world. Instead of experiencing a hodge-podge of real-world feelings, a mix of emotional conflicts -- homophobia, sure, but also, and perhaps primarily, jealousy because the man he has loved for 20 years is seeing other men -- he becomes a pawn in a literary scheme rather than a three-dimensional real-life living human being (which he is, isn't he? ISN''T HE??!?). ???
--- Quote --- But Ennis has a special circumstance -- internalized homophobia. And this has been presented to us as his motivating factor. We can analyze Moby Dick up the yin-yang, but we still have to come back to the prime motivating factor that was laid out for us, the theme the author wanted to convey. For this film, the theme is the damaging effects of rural homophobia.
--- End quote ---
This is what I mean. Is he Ennis, or is he Moby? Does he react like anybody might, upon hearing of their loved one's unfaithfulness, or does he react like a literary character fulfilling his thematic duty?
--- Quote ---Ennis and Jack love each other, right? And they're meant for each other, right? Well then why is Ennis having sex with Cassie? Simply because Jack won't mind? Is that faithful? He won't give himself to Jack the way Jack wants and so he has sex with Cassie. What if they lived together? Would he still have sex with Cassie? No. What's changed? Living together. So why don't they live together? Ennis' fears. Without Ennis' fears, Ennis would live with Jack and not have sex with Cassie. That's faithful.
--- End quote ---
I think I agree with everything here. Ennis definitely does have fears about living with Jack. They're just not his only motivation in the lakeside argument. He's not having sex with Cassie simply because Jack won't mind. It's because, yes, he doesn't want to have people know he's gay AND he doesn't think Jack would mind (personally, I think Jack minds more than Ennis realizes, but ...).
--- Quote --- Jack told Ennis that Jack has been having sex with the neighbor’s wife. Ennis could care less. He doesn’t even see it as a contributing factor to the disassociation of their relationship (as opposed to Jack who sees Cassie as just another obstacle that he's going to have to deal with). What's the difference between a man and a woman?
--- End quote ---
One difference could be that Ennis realizes Jack is gay, realizes Ennis is gay, and therefore doesn't see involvement with women as a threat. Your explanation of homophobia also works here, of course. It could even be a combination. I'm just more inclined to pick Door No. 1.
--- Quote --- It's great to listen to because it's got almost all of the music from the film in order -- especially all the wordless music – it adds the harmonica playing, “Water-Walking Jesus,” the music heard while Ennis looks at the word “deceased,” and the music during Ennis’ time in Jack’s closet and driving home. It also adds some songs that we only heard snippets of and they pack a wallop when heard in their entirety. Since it’s very nearly complete and in order, you can play out the film in your head while listening.
--- End quote ---
Does yours have "Melissa"? I am disappointed that the regular soundtrack doesn't include it, the song Ennis and Cassie dance to on their date with Alma Jr. I miss that one especially, because Ennis himself picked it from the jukebox, and it seems to unconsciously reflect his feelings about Jack and Cassie ("knowing many, loving none; sharing sorrows, having fun -- but back home he'll always run ..."). Of all the pre-existing songs in the movie, that has always been my favorite (in the context of the movie, anyway).
welliwont:
the arguements, explanation, deep analysis and interpretations in this thread are simply awsome. I haven't had time to read the whole thing and to follow all the cross-references, to each others points of view, etc, but this is an award-winning discussion for sure!! :) :)
I cannot argue points as eloquently as y'all, but I am reading this thread, and I would just like to point out again (am I going to be banned from here for sounding like a broken record?) that the following conclusion is not logical IMO:
Ennis knows that being queer is having sex with men + Ennis has sex with Jack ≠ Ennis does not think of himself as queer.
How can he not? He is sane and rational, is he not? And he did ask Jack at the riverside "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?" I realize that sometimes people can make excuses for their behaviour to the point of believing that it is something other than what it is, (I mean self-delusional) but when it comes to something as concrete as having sex with a man over and over and over for half of one's life, this ain't no little thing that's happenin here.
I cannot follow the interprectation that says Ennis did not think of himself as gay. Oh well..
dly64:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on July 02, 2006, 02:20:23 pm ---....the following conclusion is not logical IMO:
Ennis knows that being queer is having sex with men + Ennis has sex with Jack ≠ Ennis does not think of himself as queer.
How can he not? He is sane and rational, is he not? And he did ask Jack at the riverside "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?" I realize that sometimes people can make excuses for their behaviour to the point of believing that it is something other than what it is, (I mean self-delusional) but when it comes to something as concrete as having sex with a man over and over and over for half of one's life, this ain't no little thing that's happenin here.
I cannot follow the interprectation that says Ennis did not think of himself as gay. Oh well..
--- End quote ---
Not everyone agrees with me on this ... so I am going to try and explain this in another way …..
There is a "phenomenon" in the US with African-American men. It is called being on the “down low”. To make a long story short, these are two men getting together to have sex. Neither one sees themselves as gay. But they are having sex with another man. There are no emotional ties. It is strictly sex. The other piece of this whole “down low” thing, is that neither one of the men can be “gay”. Now how bizarre is that? To you and me, we would say … “these guys are gay”.
Now plug Ennis into this same line of thinking …. Ennis did not see himself as gay. Jack (initially) did not see himself as gay … (it is unclear to me if Jack ever considered himself gay. However, he was much more in touch with his sexual needs being fulfilled by a man). Yes, they had sex together. But for Ennis, it is only Jack. He is not attracted to any other man. He has no desire to be with another man. Think of the line Ennis says to Jack when they talk about Mexico:
“Well, you been to Mexico, Jack? Huh? ‘Cause I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you.”
Notice that Ennis is still separating himself from the thought that he is gay, even though he’s implying that Jack is gay. Later, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is (in other words for loving a man). Denial is a powerful thing.
One more example to help express my point …..
A person might have grown up being thin. Then s/he discovers chocolate and starts to eat it and eat it and eat it. This person gains an enormous amount of weight. The scale indicates the person is overweight. The mirror shows the person is overweight. However, the individual cannot admit that he/she is overweight. S/he still believes him/herself to be thin. The reality is s/he is not. That doesn’t change the individual’s perception.
That is how I see Ennis ... he looks at himself as a man who happens to love another man. It is something he does not completely understand. We see Ennis as gay. Another person looking in might say he is gay. That does't mean he sees himself as gay.
welliwont:
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 02, 2006, 04:24:05 pm ---Not everyone agrees with me on this ... so I am going to try and explain this in another way …..
There is a "phenomenon" in the US with African-American men. It is called being on the “down low”. To make a long story short, these are two men getting together to have sex. Neither one sees themselves as gay. But they are having sex with another man. There are no emotional ties. It is strictly sex. The other piece of this whole “down low” thing, is that neither one of the men can be “gay”. Now how bizarre is that? To you and me, we would say … “these guys are gay”.
Now plug Ennis into this same line of thinking …. Ennis did not see himself as gay. Jack (initially) did not see himself as gay … (it is unclear to me if Jack ever considered himself gay. However, he was much more in touch with his sexual needs being fulfilled by a man). Yes, they had sex together. But for Ennis, it is only Jack. He is not attracted to any other man. He has no desire to be with another man. Think of the line Ennis says to Jack when they talk about Mexico:
“Well, you been to Mexico, Jack? Huh? ‘Cause I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you.”
Notice that Ennis is still separating himself from the thought that he is gay, even though he’s implying that Jack is gay. Later, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is (in other words for loving a man). Denial is a powerful thing.
One more example to help express my point …..
A person might have grown up being thin. Then s/he discovers chocolate and starts to eat it and eat it and eat it. This person gains an enormous amount of weight. The scale indicates the person is overweight. The mirror shows the person is overweight. However, the individual cannot admit that he/she is overweight. S/he still believes him/herself to be thin. The reality is s/he is not. That doesn’t change the individual’s perception.
That is how I see Ennis ... he looks at himself as a man who happens to love another man. It is something he does not completely understand. We see Ennis as gay. Another person looking in might say he is gay. That does't mean he sees himself as gay.
--- End quote ---
Well Diane, I am mightily impressed!! :) Are you a courtroom attorney or sumpin'? Your closing arguments have swayed me completely. I stlll believe my mathematical equation, but I accept your explanations too...
Score one for the defense attorney! ;D
J
dly64:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on July 02, 2006, 05:26:48 pm ---Well Diane, I am mightily impressed!! :) Are you a courtroom attorney or sumpin'? Your closing arguments have swayed me completely. I stlll believe my mathematical equation, but I accept your explanations too...
Score one for the defense attorney! ;DJ
--- End quote ---
Well - I may have swayed you (which I'm glad if I did), but I am sure there are plenty of others who'll say, "Huh?? What in the hell are you talking about?" Oh well! C'est la vie!
Nope - not an att'y. Just an MBA working in marketing and sales for an insurance company. I guess that does take a level of persuasion. I have to convince companies they need to get their health insurance from me!! 8)
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