"I figured you were sore from that punch"

[jpwagoneer1964]

I'm late to this party - womderful thread chock full of favorite posters.  I think the reason Jack doesn't really answer Ennis in the movie (about being sore from that punch) and replies tangentially in the story (something like "You won't catch me like that again") is because he has long since forgiven Ennis.  I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

Jack does answer, saying softy nah when Ennis mentions the punch.

[Brown Eyes]

And I think Jack understood why Ennis threw that punch, he understood the underlying emotions like no one else, because he had the same emotions, he was feeling the same pain. That's why he wasn't acting angry anymore at the time they said goodbye...

This is a good way of looking at the situation I think.  Maybe Jack also realized (almost immediately) that Ennis would feel very, very bad about the punch... because after all Jack felt very, very bad about giving Ennis the bloody nose (even if it was more accidental).  In certain ways, there is some nice symmetry here.

I think Jack forgives Ennis easily again and again. 

It just seems that Jack is somehow able to get over things... lots of things... and just keep going.  He doesn't seem like he's one to carry a grudge (much).  He does carry a grudge about his Dad (not teaching him how to rodeo and not coming to see him ride...), but that's probably a special situation.

Jack does answer, saying softy nah when Ennis mentions the punch.

I think Jack might be mainly surprised and a little flattered at that moment in the motel when Ennis demonstrates that he's been worrying about that punch for 4 years.  Ennis is cute here because he really reveals how much he's been worrying about Jack.  Not only was he worried that Jack might have hurt feelings over the punch, but he's also clearly been very worried about Jack winding up in the army.  In a way, that kind of concern over Jack's well-being is very romantic... and I think Jack gets this as he's lying there.

 

[dly64]

This is a good way of looking at the situation I think.  Maybe Jack also realized (almost immediately) that Ennis would feel very, very bad about the punch... because after all Jack felt very, very bad about giving Ennis the bloody nose (even if it was more accidental).  In certain ways, there is some nice symmetry here.

It just seems that Jack is somehow able to get over things... lots of things... and just keep going.  He doesn't seem like he's one to carry a grudge (much).

The more I think about this, the more I think the “punch” is emblematic of Jack and Ennis’ relationship. Unintentionally or not, Ennis delivers a “punch” to Jack over and over. The first actual punch is symbolic of the pain Ennis is internalizing but is unable to express verbally. Post mountain, however, Jack is constantly getting “beaten up”. Think about it …. when they finally see each other after four years, Ennis refuses to have a life with Jack. This is the theme for the rest of their lives. The one time when Jack thinks Ennis has reconsidered is after Ennis’ divorce. Jack travels 14 hours only to find that Ennis is still unable to give himself to Jack. That scene is a turning point. Yes, Jack doesn’t hold a “grudge” only because he loves Ennis so deeply and can not imagine a life without him. At that moment Jack knows that the best he’ll get is the few “fishing” trips once or twice a year. It is a devastating moment. It doesn’t mean that Jack doesn’t try …. “Maybe it’s time you moved outta there. You know, set yourself up somewhere different. Maybe Texas.” As usual, Ennis rejects the idea. By that point, however, Jack is not as affected by the pain. It has become a pattern and Jack knows it will not change.

I think Jack might be mainly surprised and a little flattered at that moment in the motel when Ennis demonstrates that he's been worrying about that punch for 4 years.  Ennis is cute here because he really reveals how much he's been worrying about Jack.  Not only was he worried that Jack might have hurt feelings over the punch, but he's also clearly been very worried about Jack winding up in the army.  In a way, that kind of concern over Jack's well-being is very romantic... and I think Jack gets this as he's lying there.

The motel scene is wonderful because it is so intimate and honest. This scene shows how much they truly love each other. It is one time (albeit not the only time) where Ennis makes himself vulnerable. He is painfully honest when he says, “I’m stuck with what I got here.” The expression on his face is one of pure sadness. It is obvious throughout that scene how much Ennis has missed Jack. Look at how many times Ennis caresses Jack’s arms. It is lovely. After that, however, Ennis’ fears overtake his feelings for Jack. Thus begins the pattern of hurting Jack over and over again.

[Front-Ranger]

I really like reading about your thought processes here. This has caused me to rethink that whole scene.

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Diane,

Nice post!  Sometimes I feel like watching Jack get hurt over and over again in the film is like watching a puppy being kicked.  
 

Sometimes I can hardly stand to watch certain scenes... especially the post-divorce fiasco as you pointed out.  I think one of the hardest parts of this dilemma he was in with Ennis is that he knows that this relationship is the right one.  He knows that he loves Ennis and he knows that Ennis loves him back... how incredibly frustrating to have the thing that he wants (or that they both want), but only in little doses and the full-blown expression of their love (living together) just beyond his/ their reach.  And the main obstacle to making things progress is the fear in Ennis's head.  When Jack suggests Ennis move to Texas, you can tell he's desperately trying to find new tactics to push Ennis beyond the demons in his head and to consider some new alternatives.  I think Jack's hopefulness about being able to pry Ennis away from his painful attachment to his sense of societal duty comes from the moment in the motel.  Just as you said... when Ennis makes that horribly sad statement - "I’m stuck with what I got here"- I think Jack hears this as an opportunity.  Jack probably hears this as a sorrow for Ennis that Jack can actually help "fix".  Of course, Jack doesn't know the extent of the emotional pain and complexity that he's dealing with in terms of Ennis until the Earl story.

[jpwagoneer1964]

A big reason Ennis wouldn't Have a life with Jack because he didn't want to leave his children or have Jack leave Bobby. True strength in character.

[dly64]

A big reason Ennis wouldn't Have a life with Jack because he didn't want to leave his children or have Jack leave Bobby. True strength in character.

Although I see your point, I don't think that is Ennis' primary motivation for not having a life with Jack. IMO, Ennis uses his daughters as an excuse. (I am not saying that Ennis does not love his daughters or that Jack doesn’t love his son. I am saying that this is not what keeps them apart). The true reason … what keeps him from having a life with Jack … is his fear. That is why the Earl and Rich story is so important. It is the image of Earl that colors everything Ennis says and does (in relation to Jack). It is the ghost in the room. It is always there. Despite how much he feels for Jack, he is unable to rid himself of the image of a man who was dismembered and beaten to death. Ennis assumes that this will happen to Jack and/or himself.

Sometimes I can hardly stand to watch certain scenes... especially the post-divorce fiasco as you pointed out.  I think one of the hardest parts of this dilemma he was in with Ennis is that he knows that this relationship is the right one.  He knows that he loves Ennis and he knows that Ennis loves him back... how incredibly frustrating to have the thing that he wants (or that they both want), but only in little doses and the full-blown expression of their love (living together) just beyond his/ their reach.  And the main obstacle to making things progress is the fear in Ennis's head. 

I couldn’t agree with you more. The post-divorce scene is the most difficult (for me) to watch. The pain is so palpable … I can hardly breathe. Although the following seems OT, it really isn’t. When Jack drives away after Ennis has said, one more time, that he is unwilling to leave his life for one with Jack, this song is playing on the radio:

A Love That Will Never Grow Old
Music: Gustavo Santaolalla
Lyrics: Bernie Taupin
Sung By: Emmylou Harris

Go to sleep, may your sweet dreams come true
Just lay back in my arms for one more night
I've this crazy old notion that calls me sometimes
Saying this one's the love of our lives.

Cause I know a love that will never grow old
And I know a love that will never grow old.

When you wake up the world may have changed
But trust in me, I'll never falter or fail
Just the smile in your eyes, it can light up the night,
And your laughter's like wind in my sails.

Cause I know a love that will never grow old
And I know a love that will never grow old.

Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rutted old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

Cause I know a love that will never grow old
And I know a love that will never grow old.


This song is placed purposefully. It expresses how Jack feels at that moment. It is a devastating expression of what could be. It kills me every time I hear it.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

...then gets Aguirre’s “bring ’em down” news (double meaning of “Bring him down”--meaning Ennis--and it certainly worked).

Whoa, this is interesting. I never thought of that!

I find it so profound how it is illustrated that Ennis has thought about that moment when they parted in 1963 recurringly for the next four years.

I noticed how Jack spit in that short little snip of a scene after the punch and Ennis has this taken aback expression on his face; he looked worried that Jack was upset.

And yeah, I think Ennis felt really guilty and that was another little factor to his alley breakdown.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Although I see your point, I don't think that is Ennis' primary motivation for not having a life with Jack. IMO, Ennis uses his daughters as an excuse. (I am not saying that Ennis does not love his daughters or that Jack doesn’t love his son. I am saying that this is not what keeps them apart). The true reason … what keeps him from having a life with Jack … is his fear. That is why the Earl and Rich story is so important. It is the image of Earl that colors everything Ennis says and does (in relation to Jack). It is the ghost in the room. It is always there. Despite how much he feels for Jack, he is unable to rid himself of the image of a man who was dismembered and beaten to death. Ennis assumes that this will happen to Jack and/or himself.

 

[jpwagoneer1964]

Although I see your point, I don't think that is Ennis' primary motivation for not having a life with Jack. IMO, Ennis uses his daughters as an excuse. (I am not saying that Ennis does not love his daughters or that Jack doesn’t love his son. I am saying that this is not what keeps them apart). The true reason … what keeps him from having a life with Jack … is his fear. That is why the Earl and Rich story is so important. It is the image of Earl that colors everything Ennis says and does (in relation to Jack). It is the ghost in the room. It is always there. Despite how much he feels for Jack, he is unable to rid himself of the image of a man who was dismembered and beaten to death. Ennis assumes that this will happen to Jack and/or himself.

 

I do think that if Ehnnis's fears were much less, he would not yet be inclined to move on with Jack if they could not both be near their children intil they were grown. Would would be different is that Ennis would have expressed this to Jack so there would be plan for a future, Jack would have been less careless and likely survived.