The World Beyond BetterMost > Women Today
Economic Gender Gaps: In the U.S. and Internationally
Brown Eyes:
Thanks Crayons! Wow, this thread has certainly become a lively little place.
I'd just like to echo that I think it's important to address these issues either using direct examples of personal experience or by citing and considering actual research on the subjects at hand in this thread (moving from economic discrepencies between men and women to the issue of education, discipline, etc.).
Speaking in stereotypes and extremely broad generalizations seems to mostly serve the goal of trying to prop-up, bolster or validate stereotypes. Which in my opinion, isn't helpful to either gender.
HerrKaiser:
the series of responses by crayons above simply continue the wishful thinking that some real "truth" can emerge from tales of personal situations that do not reflect reality. Sorry if some reality checks appear "rude" but, for example, it was quite convenient for women to bemoan lack of team sport participation, and as a direct result create title 9, one of the most unfair and discriminating legislations ever past, and claim now that women WERE active if not equal participants?
some specific clarifications:
1) an LPN is a licensed practical nurse that in most states requires only a year of training and in practice is only allowed to give prescription drugs (which anyone can do at home) and basic patient comfort care and vitals (temp, bp, etc). A plumber goes through mulitple years of training and journeymanship and as a licensed plumber, he/she is fully responsible for the work they perform. So, once again, the erroneous attempt to equalize careers with different earnings structures lead you to a false conclusion.
2) you know perfectly well the C level execs are not part of the legitimate discussion on fair wages for workers. Using these exaggerated examples further deflates your points; even though I admit similar propaganda has been quite successful for feminists' ability to gain attention over the years.
3) wage disparity can very likely be discovered somewhere. But, your original premise that the 77 cents on every dollar a man earns is what women overall get paid is not true. Wishing to believe that somewhere is a woman who is paid less than an exact equal male counterpart is one's choice. Somewhere a man is underpaid as well. But such situations are not common and have legal recourse.
4) not kidding about teachers' stress levels vs other careers. Actually, are you kidding? While disciplinary issues are vastly more problematic than former times, other than teachers and those who love them feel they have the most cush jobs ever invented. In fact, I know plenty of teachers who know that to be true too...that's why they got into it.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: HerrKaiser on November 20, 2008, 02:17:57 am ---the series of responses by crayons above simply continue the wishful thinking that some real "truth" can emerge from tales of personal situations that do not reflect reality. Sorry if some reality checks appear "rude" but, for example, it was quite convenient for women to bemoan lack of team sport participation, and as a direct result create title 9, one of the most unfair and discriminating legislations ever past, and claim now that women WERE active if not equal participants?
--- End quote ---
My point was that I at least offered some form of evidence, from my own experience. I'm a parent of two sons, I have worked in co-ed workplaces. Where is your evidence? I don't see anything from firsthand experience or research or anything else for your wild statements such as "girls do not excel at teamsmanship." That's a "reality check"?
Get this. I believe there are indeed differences between men and women. But those differences are exceedingly hard to determine, even for genetic behavioralists and other scientists, due to the intertwining of environment and biology. Making reckless blanket generalizations about what you perceive about male and female behavior based on casual observation -- of what? years of watching sitcoms? -- is irresponsible and, yep, rude.
some specific clarifications:
1) an LPN is a licensed practical nurse that in most states requires only a year of training and in practice is only allowed to give prescription drugs (which anyone can do at home) and basic patient comfort care and vitals (temp, bp, etc). A plumber goes through mulitple years of training and journeymanship and as a licensed plumber, he/she is fully responsible for the work they perform. So, once again, the erroneous attempt to equalize careers with different earnings structures lead you to a false conclusion.
2) you know perfectly well the C level execs are not part of the legitimate discussion on fair wages for workers. Using these exaggerated examples further deflates your points; even though I admit similar propaganda has been quite successful for feminists' ability to gain attention over the years.
3) wage disparity can very likely be discovered somewhere. But, your original premise that the 77 cents on every dollar a man earns is what women overall get paid is not true. Wishing to believe that somewhere is a woman who is paid less than an exact equal male counterpart is one's choice. Somewhere a man is underpaid as well. But such situations are not common and have legal recourse.
4) not kidding about teachers' stress levels vs other careers. Actually, are you kidding? While disciplinary issues are vastly more problematic than former times, other than teachers and those who love them feel they have the most cush jobs ever invented. In fact, I know plenty of teachers who know that to be true too...that's why they got into it.
[/quote]
HerrKaiser:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on November 20, 2008, 02:39:07 am ---My point was that I at least offered some form of evidence, from my own experience. I'm a parent of two sons, I have worked in co-ed workplaces. Where is your evidence? I don't see anything from firsthand experience or research or anything else for your wild statements such as "girls do not excel at teamsmanship." That's a "reality check"?
Get this. I believe there are indeed differences between men and women. But those differences are exceedingly hard to determine, even for genetic behavioralists and other scientists, due to the intertwining of environment and biology. Making reckless blanket generalizations about what you perceive about male and female behavior based on casual observation -- of what? years of watching sitcoms? -- is irresponsible and, yep, rude.
--- End quote ---
I guess your work and personal experiences are valid projections to the entire culture? No, sorry. And if you think so, why would you suggest that mine or anyone else's are not worthy of the same application across the board?
The "quote" you attributed to me was purposefully written by you to mislead...another means by which you have historically attempted to win debates here. My statement was in context to a post by brokeplex and is based on studies showing the same result, that the reason girls team sports had not and remain less involved than boys' team sports because "....girls do not seem to excel at teamnanship". big difference than what you attempted to slip in...and thats rude. ;) Not to mention the crack about sitcoms. Maybe some self inspection about rudeness is in order.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: HerrKaiser on November 20, 2008, 11:17:23 am ---I guess your work and personal experiences are valid projections to the entire culture? No, sorry. And if you think so, why would you suggest that mine or anyone else's are not worthy of the same application across the board?
--- End quote ---
You just answered your own question. Yours are not applicable across the board if they do not match my experiences. The fact that my experiences are different is prima facie evidence that yours or others do NOT apply to every case.
Now, I didn't at any point say that your generalizations are NEVER right. I said that, according to my own firsthand observations, they are not ALWAYS right. For instance, it's quite possible that JudgeHolden's anecdotes about the military accurately support his position, in that context. And it's quite possible that women in newsrooms behave differently than women in the military so that my observations are also accurate. In the absence of other data, we have no way of knowing whether JudgeHolden's experiences are more common than mine, or vice versa.
Do you understand the distinction? When you make generalizations about how men and women behave, implying that those generalizations apply "across the board," then anyone who can point out an exception is effectively disproving your argument.
--- Quote ---The "quote" you attributed to me was purposefully written by you to mislead...another means by which you have historically attempted to win debates here. My statement was in context to a post by brokeplex and is based on studies showing the same result, that the reason girls team sports had not and remain less involved than boys' team sports because "....girls do not seem to excel at teamnanship". big difference than what you attempted to slip in...and thats rude. ;) Not to mention the crack about sitcoms. Maybe some self inspection about rudeness is in order.
--- End quote ---
OK, I'll try to put this as politely as possible.
There is all kinds of research out there on behavioral differences between men and women, some of which even attempt to separate the effects of biology vs. socialization. When you make vast generalizations about the sexes, such as
--- Quote from: HerrKaiser on November 19, 2008, 07:30:51 pm ---girls do not seem to excel at teammanship.
--- End quote ---
it is advisable to include some form of evidence. That is, you can say anything you want -- you can say women have X-ray vision and men can see into the future -- but if you want to be taken seriously it's necessary to support your statements with evidence.
Now, anecdotal evidence, such as I offered, is not the best kind. Empirical research is better, and the ideal is double-blind studies with control groups, blah blah blah. But my point is that you are offering no evidence whatsoever. And anecdotal evidence beats no evidence every time, especially when the side with the no evidence is attempting to make generalizations that apply "across the board."
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