Last edit 2006/08/12: one of my answers was chopped in half so I had to fix it here. Jane
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A - Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis:
-- B - Describe himself that way to others? Latjoreme -- Never. Ruthlessly ? Agreed, never. Jane - no. Diane ? no human way! Penth -- No way Mikaela ? No, never ever. Not unless we're talking bizarro-world Ennis. Barb - No, not ever.
Amanda= No... not out loud... But, he'd be capable of formulating the thought in response to someone else's remark by the time of the conversation with Cassie in the bus station. The "I don't get you." comment, I think, spurs Ennis to at least think about his love/attraction for Jack (i.e. his own homosexuality) first and foremost as the main reason why Cassie would never "get" him. Also, in Lightning Flat I think everyone at the table, including Ennis, recognizes Ennis's identity as Jack's lover. Ellemeno -- Maybe at the end, to Alma Jr., if she asked directly and gently. Otherwise, no.
-- Use the word "queer" or "homosexual" to describe himself to himself? Latjoreme -- Early on in the movie, no. By the end, probably yes. Ruthlessly ? Early, agreed. End, slightly, possibly, maybe... but still only with fear and self-loathing. Jane - Early on, not on your f?n life! By the end, still no. Diane - No, no, no! I don?t think he?d even consider admitting to himself he would fit into that category. Penth -- Early on: no. Later: probably yes, and not only after Jack's death, but even before ("You ever get the feeleng...") Mikaela -- Yes, eventually he would use the term "queer" to himself. Barb - No, not to the point where he truly accepts it to be true.
Amanda= Yes, again, by the time he has his bus station chat with Cassie and his meeting the Jack's folks. And, yes, he'd be much more likely to use the term queer than homosexual. Even earlier... when Ennis asks Jack about whether people on the street "know"... he's worrying that people can see/ tell that he's queer. He almost comes right out and says this in this conversation. It's bubbling right under the surface of being an articulate statement. So, maybe he even can think this word- queer- to himself by the time of the "Jack Nasty" conversation... which spurs his later discussion with Jack. Ellemeno -- Yes, deep, deep down, from the time he was very young, and then quick turn away.
-- Reluctantly in his heart of hearts consider the possibility that those words might apply to him? Latjoreme -- Yes, probably, the whole time. Ruthlessly ? Agreed. Jane - yes he would consider that those words might apply to him. Diane ? He might consider the possibility, but I don?t think he would allow himself to acknowledge that he might be gay. Penth -- Yes, from very early on. Mikaela ? Yes, from he was nine years old. Barb - Yes. In his heart of hearts, he's always considered it.
Amanda= Yes of course. This is precisely why he brings is up to Jack on the mountain top after TS1. It's on his mind anyway. And, I think they're both telling each other what they want to hear... "I ain't queer..." is a basic fib that, even if they won't admit it out loud, is undercut by their actions and obvious love/ attraction for each other. I think this is why we're immediately shown TS2. Ellemeno -- Yes.-- Notice he's attracted to men? Latjoreme -- Yes, since he was a kid, though he has learned to hide or repress it. Ruthlessly ? Agreed. Jane - yes. Diane ? Yes ? again, I am not sure if he would admit, even to himself that he is attracted to men. Penth -- Yes Mikaela -- Yes, most certainly. One of the reasons he's so painfully shy Barb - Yes, and loathe himself for it.
Amanda= Yes he notices. From the time he's 9 years old he notices. Even before the Earl trauma, he was probably secretly fascinated by these two gay role models. He may even secretly admire their courage ("tough old birds"). Anyway, he at the very least notices his attraction to Jack long before Jack's first move in TS1. Ellemeno -- Yes.
-- Wish he weren't? Latjoreme -- Sure. Jane - yes. Ruthlessly ? Agreed. Penth -- yes Mikaela -- Yes, or the story and film would not have been the same Barb - Yes.
Amanda= Yes... until Jack dies. Once Jack is gone I think his whole attitude towards the situation changes. I think in the end he's so grateful to have had Jack in his life that he probably would even be willing to accept his identity as gay (at least in his head) because it was that identity that allowed Jack into his life. Does that make any sense? And anyway, I think an underlying theme of this film is the issue of coming-out (however tortured the route... and at least coming out to ones self). Ellemeno -- I feel a shift when he's coming out of the Riverton post office, a lightness to his step, right before finding the DECEASED postcard. I think by then he's made peace with himself: he's quit with Cassie, he's written a postcard (!) to Jack telling him he's looking forward to November, he knows who he is and accepts himself.
-- Convince himself almost 100% completely that he isn?t? Ruthlessly ? Absolutely Diane ? ABOSULETLY!! No way would he even be comfortable with the fact that he was gay. Latjoreme -- No, I'd say more like 65%. Penth -- No. Mikaela -- Difficult one. Yes, at certain moments in his life, especially in his younger years, I think he actually managed this, to his great relief?. But over the perspective of longer time periods, the percentage was not *anywhere* near 100%. Barb - He would keep trying, but he'd never succeed.
Amanda= Of course he doesn't. Ellemeno -- No, he knows. (To Alma: "I'd be GLAD to leave you alone.")
-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a gay relationship? Latjoreme -- Yes, sort of. Jane - no? yes? Ruthlessly ? No. No recognition ? which signifies to me that it dawns on him, that he becomes aware of it. No. Penth -- Difficult. Recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship, yes Mikaela ? I agree with Penth. He recognizes that others would call it a gay relationship. For his own conflicted self, he?d think of it as special and not easily boil it down to that simple term. Barb - I'm with Mikaela on this one. I don't think he'd ever officially recognize it as such to himself, but I think he knows that that's how other people see it. In fact, his knowing that adds to his denial and defiance. e.g., "They don't know what the fuck they're talkin' about..."
Amanda= Yes... I think that's what the whole Mexico argument was about. Recognizing that Jack is gay... and that Ennis is gay... and that their relationship is gay. Ellemeno -- Sometimes he faces it (dozy embrace, joy on his face in the "look what I brought" scene, his arm around Jack in TS3), someetimes not ("...what they got in Mexico fer boys like YOU [NOT ME].) Although, he's probably even facing it in that scene too, just not out loud.-- Recognize that his relationship with Jack constitutes a ?thing? that he cannot understand or name with its correct, generally-accepted name? Ruthlessly ? Yes, 100% Diane ? I agree with Ruthless 100% on both of these points. No way can he consider that this is a gay relationship ? it is an anomaly. Latjoreme: No, I think deep down he knows what the correct name is, but he would never say it out loud and tries not to say it to himself. Penth -- this is the converse of the question above (kind of). Therefore No, because he knows how it would be called by all the world and his brother. Mikaela ? yes and no? He will not let himself name it by it?s generally accepted name, but he does know what that name is. Barb - At the end, he knows it's love, even if he doesn't consciously call it that to himself. He knows.
Amanda= He knows what their relationship is. He doesn't use the term relationship... but then neither does Jack and I don't think we doubt Jack's ability to comprehend what the "thing" was. And anyway, Jack at least tells him that their relationship could be "a sweet life"... Ennis hears this and I think completely understands (but is too afraid to go for it). Ellemeno -- When he first uses the word "thing," he probably hasn't figured it all out, but after they develop a routine, he might not be able to imagine how it would really work for them to have an actual domestic partnership-type relationship, because other than Rich and Earl, he may not have had any modelling for it, but he knows.
-- Believe it's a huge exception to the rule, that he's not "really" gay and otherwise would be attracted only to women? Latjoreme -- No. He tries his best to believe that, but secretly knows it's not true. Ruthlessly ? I?m not sure if I?ve broken down the question into its intended subparts correctly. Correct me if I?m wrong. ?Believe it?s a huge exception to the rule?? ? No. The only rules to homosexuality that he believes are that it?s wrong and equals (or deserves) death. ?Believe ? that he?s not ?really? gay ?? ? Absolutely. He does not believe himself to be gay. ?Believe ? and otherwise would be attracted only to women? ? The word ?otherwise? would require him to think of himself as gay, which he does not. He may not be attracted to women sexually, but he believes that he?s supposed to be. Jane - hunh?? Diane ? In Ennis? mind ? yes. I think he can not comprehend (or should I say consciously understand) why he loves Jack. IMO, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is. If it wouldn?t be for that, Ennis would believe that he would be living a ?normal? life. Penth -- Probably no. Mikaela -- No. This is what he'd wish for, but deep down he knows he's attracted to other men. Barb - I'm with Mikaela again on this one.
Amanda= No, he realizes that he's not even attracted to Cassie... the type of woman who would be many a straight man's dream. And, his love scenes with Alma are some of the most tortured I've seen in a long time. Ellemeno -- After Jack comes back in his life, he stops even the gentle, familiar affection he first had with Alma (when he touched her back when he entered the ranch kitchen). And Cassie is just aggressive enough to get him, and a handy disguise, but he doesn't seem very interested to be putting the blocks to her.
-- Ever have been involved with another man if not for Jack? Latjoreme -- Probably not. Ruthlessly ? Agreed. Unless someone came along and led him to it in the same way Jack did ? build a friendship, build an intimacy, give Ennis his moment to let it all come bursting out, etc. Jane - maybe, if he was attracted to and picked up in the right way. Diane ? I find it highly improbable. Penth -- Yes, if the other man would be Jack-like: leading him. I'm with Ruthlessly on this question Mikaela -- No, or at least chances are very, very slim. It would require alignment of special circumstances akin to what he and Jack had, including someone to lead him into it ? and time enough alone to get comfortable. Barb - No. Following Mikaela's line of reasoning, since there's no way the stars would ever align to that extent again, no. He's too much in denial for that.
Amanda= I agree that he'd still need someone else to make a first move. But, probably he could have found another guy under the right circumstances. Ellemeno -- He's only 39 by the end of the movie. Who knows what will come his way?-- Blame Jack for him (Ennis) being gay? Latjoreme -- Not in his sexuality. See above -- he knows he already was. Not in his behavior, either; he implies this in the lakeside scene, but he's upset. Ruthlessly ? I dunno. Even if Ennis recognized early on that he is attracted to men, it took Jack to bring Ennis to the point of acting on it. So, because Ennis does not believe himself to be gay, he very well could blame Jack for bringing Ennis to the point of acting on Ennis? attraction to other fellas. Jane - no. Diane ? as I said above, yes. Penth -- No Mikaela -- No. Barb - In a way (as Ruthlessly described way better than I could), yes, I think he does.
Amanda- no. Ellemeno -- No, but blame Jack for him BEHAVING gay, yes, when he's unhappy.-- Blame Jack for keeping him nothin and nowhere? Latjoreme -- Not really. Again, he's lashing out in anger. He does not actually resent Jack for the way his life has gone. Ruthlessly ? Half and half. Ennis knows that he?s nothin? and nowhere because he has put his ?get somewhere? and ?be somebody? on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack. Ennis knows that?s what he?s done. But, he probably doesn?t accept responsibility for his actions; thus, he blames Jack for it. For the simple fact that Jack was there, Ennis just couldn?t help himself. Jane - no, not Jack, but his relationship with Jack? Yes. Diane ? as I have stated before, yes. I think he sees the relationship as something that has somewhat derailed his life. If not for Jack, he would probably still be married to Alma and living a blissful lie of a life. Penth -- Partly yes. "...because he has put his ?get somewhere? and ?be somebody? on the back burner so that he could be available for Jack." But this alludes on the extern circumstances (poverty for example). But not in the way that Ennis would earnestly believe Jack had ruined his life. Mikaela -- No. It's difficult to generalize. Now and then Ennis may have thought along those lines in his continuous despair over his own siuation, and once he lashes out at Jack in fear of Jack leaving him, but overall I think he felt himself to be someone and to be somewhere only when together with Jack. Barb - Up until he finds the shirts, yes. After that, no. Then he blames himself. And that's his fate - that he has to live with that regret and guilt, along with his grief, for the rest of his life.
Amanda= He blames the circumstances under which they conduct their relationship for his "nothing and nowhere" sense of himself. But, he knows this isn't Jack's fault. Ellemeno -- Again, only when he's cranky. I think Ennis loved some aspects of his life - what's the quote from the short story - "His penchant for low-paying ranch work."
-- Blame his feelings for Jack for keeping him from leading a normal life? Latjoreme -- Yes. Ruthlessly ? Agreed. He knew he had feelings for Jack, and Ennis called those feelings a ?thing,? and he knew that those feelings, that ?thing? kept Ennis from leading a normal life ? what Ennis would perceive as normal. Jane - yes Diane ? same as what I just said above ... .i.e. Yes! Penth -- yes Mikaela -- Yes Barb - Yes. But who among us hasn't done that, albeit not to the same extent in most cases?
Amanda= What's a normal life? I don't know how to answer this. Ellemeno -- Grinding hard work "All I got time for is making a living" is what he expects in life. Jack mostly just brings him joy. But the secrecy and interuptiveness of it is wearing.-- Wish he had never gotten involved with Jack in the first place? Latjoreme -- No way. Ruthlessly ? I don?t agree. If Ennis is like 99% of other people who fall in love (as some people have said ), then there are certainly times when he has wished he?d never gotten involved with Jack. Wished it as an overall defining characteristic of himself? No. But gone through long periods of trying to forget, get over, avoid, regret? then, yes. Jane - no f'n way! Diane ? No way ?. He was his one-in-a-lifetime love. Jack was the one person who could understand him. Penth -- No way Mikaela -- No. Not on your life. No. Barb - I think he would wish that at certain points. Even when all is said (and not said) and done (and not done) whenever the grief becomes practically unbearable, I think there would be a small part of him that would wish he had been spared all that pain. But overall, no, I don't think he'd consciously wish that or want that for more than a moment or two.
Amanda= No way. I think Jack kept him going those 20 years and his memories of Jack will, in a way, save his life. Can you imagine how dreary and dismal his life would have been without the excitement of Jack? How could someone regret having a soul mate? Ellemeno -- No. Again the short story, something like "suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream again. If he lets it, the memory can warm him all day." (Total paraphrase, sorry.)Regarding love, does Ennis-- Use that word when talking to Jack? Latjoreme -- No, obviously. Ruthlessly ? Agreed. Jane - no. Diane ? no way ? that?s completely out of his character Penth -- No Mikaela -- No, certainly not. More's the pity. Barb - No.
Amanda= No, but he comes damn close with the "Jack I swear..." Talking to Jack's ghost at least. Ellemeno -- It doesn't seem like it. -- Use that word when talking to himself? Latjoreme -- No. Ruthlessly ? Agreed. But he did try to get personalized vanity plates on his truck that say ?E (heart) J.? Unfortunately, the Wyoming DMV doesn?t allow a heart character on their plates. Jane - no. Diane ? No. Penth -- Hm, no. But.... Mikaela -- No, not until the very end. He's learned to use the word by then - he would have used it to himself, not only to his daughter. Barb - No, not about Jack. Only about his daughters.
Amanda= Yes, but only after Jack is dead. And maybe for the first time during his chat with Alma Jr. Ellemeno -- Only during/after the conversation with Alma Jr.-- Notice that he exhibits the feelings and longings and behavior that the rest of us would associate with the word "love"? Latjoreme -- Yes. Ruthlessly ? ?Notice?? Yes, occasionally, but quickly dismisses it as ?Can?t be? it?s a ?thing.?? Jane - no. Ennis is all about submersing his feelings. I don't think he even lets them breathe. Diane ? Possibly. He is so cut off from his feelings and others? perceptions, I don?t know that he would be capable of picking up on something like that. Penth -- A very sure Yes Mikaela -- Yes, he is aware of the feelings and longings and behaviour Barb - No, not consciously. And since that's what 'notice' means, just no.
Amanda= Yes absolutely. Ellemeno -- Yes. (The look he gives Jack as they are riding and Jack plays the harmonica seems blatant to me.)-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love? Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.) Ruthlessly ? Getting? there? plus the other interactions that follow. Pie?ll do it to ya every time! They shoulda bin eatin? pie up on ol? Brokeback ?steada beans. Jane - yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment. He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation. That is why he dropped Cassie.. Diane ? No ? I think he realized that he loved Jack after their confrontation. The pie scene illustrates how cut off and onely Ennis has become and it is used as a way to close his relationship with Cassie. Penth -- I'm with Diane and Jane here: after the lake scene Mikaela -- No. I think he knows earlier. Is the use of that specific word the point of this question? Then not much earlier. Ennis doesn't use the word "love" till very late. Barb - He starts to realize it then, but the notion doesn't solidify in his mind until he says to Alma, Jr. "This Kurt... He loves you?" and she says, "Yes, Daddy. He loves me."
Amanda= No, I don't know when he knew. Maybe TS2. But it certainly wasn't as late as the pie scene. Again, he may not have articulated the word 'love' in his head until the end... but he was in love/ loved Jack all along. How can you ignore or not understand an emotion like that? Even if you can't name it? Ellemeno -- The pivotal importance of the pie scene is still a new concept to me. But he knew. YOU BET.-- Not recognize it until his conversation with Alma Jr.? Latjoreme -- No, I think he recognizes in the closet at the very latest. Ruthlessly ? Fully recognizes it in the closet at the very earliest AND at the very latest. Was there pie in that there closet? Jane - No, he starts to recognize it after his breakdown and Jack?s speech. Diane ? No ? same as what I have said above. Penth -- No, see above. He took a step forward: he is able to talk about it. Not about his love for Jack, but able to admit how important it is. Mikaela -- No. Barb - Oops. Spoke too soon. Typical. Yes.
Amanda= No, I think he names it at this point. He probably knows it, again, from TS2. He definitely recognizes it with the dry heaves at least! Ellemeno -- I don't think that it's so much that it dawns on him late that he loves Jack, as much as it dawns on him late that he could have taken action to have a sweet life with Jack and that he could have not let his fear make his choices for him. -- Recognize only in the end that, given that he and Jack were in love, that he should have made honoring that love his first priority, rather than being afraid to do so? Latjoreme -- Absolutely. Ruthlessly ? Recognize ? that he should have ? rather than?? No. Change it to ?After the closet scene, especially during his talk with Jr., and given that Ennis now understands that he and Jack were in love, did Ennis wish that he would have been able to have overcome his fears and made his love for Jack his first priority while, after Jack?s death, still not actually dealing with overcoming his fears because there is no longer a reason to with regard to his relationship with Jack?? Then, yes. There ain?t that much pie in alla Riverton. Jane - Yes. Diane ? Yes, absolutely. I think that is why he has such bitter longing ? knowing what could have been and knowing that, since Jack is gone, it will never happen. Penth -- Yes, yes and yes. This makes it so poignant. What might have been. And he knows it. Recognizes after Jack's death. Latest after he found the shirts, but I believe even before the shirts. Mikaela ? I realize I have no easy answer for this one. I have to think about it. I?m not certain Ennis ever reaches a point where he truly believes he could have managed to ?honour the love? if that meant actually living Jack?s ?sweet life ? together. The shirts still in the closet at the end remain a very compelling image ? but one that can be interpreted more than one way. (See answer to the question 2 points further down). I think if Ennis recognizes one thing, it?s that he should have made sure of showing and telling Jack straight out how he felt about him - he should have made absolutely sure that Jack did not have to die in any sort of doubt about that. Barb - Yes, absolutely. That's what "I swear" means to me. Not so much the conscious use of the word love part as the realization that had he done things differently, Jack would still be alive and they would still be, if not openly together, committed to and enjoying one another on a regular basis.
Amanda= This is a trick two part question. I don't think he recognizes the love only at the end (he names it at the end). But absolutely... He'd give his right arm and more for a second chance to "honor" his love for Jack and make it his priority. Ellemeno -- Yes, his first priority - along with taking care of his kids.-- Does Ennis think homosexuals deserve death? Latjoreme: No. He might think his dad was right that homosexuality is shameful and wrong. But I don't think he believes that if his dad did the job he was right in that case. Ruthlessly -- I dunno, again. He did tell Jack that if he came to know certain things, he'd kill him. And I don?t believe for a minute he's talking about jealousy here. His father taught him well. Diane ? I agree completely with your point of view, Katherine. Penth -- No way. Agree with Diane and Katherine. Mikaela -- No. He thinks homosexuality is shameful and wrong. His upbringing taught him he should speak as if he thinks they deserve death. Barb - No. Never. As others have said here, he's ashamed of himself for it, but he never thought Earl or Jack or any other homosexuals "deserved" death.
Amanda= No, I think we're meant to see Ennis as a huge contrast to his father. "We're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them." Ennis is definitely not one of the predators responsible for the menace of predator loss. He's horrified by his father, it traumatizes him and messes up his sense of his own identity, but he certainly doesn't agree with him. Ellemeno -- No, but he does have that teaching in him. I think that when confronted - and hurt - by Jack's Mexican sex, he lashes out with what he was taught was de facto behavior, threaten a "queer" with death.-- After Jack dies, will Ennis' homophobia and fears and shame remain intact, now that there's no longer any reason to overcome them? Latjoreme: Partly. He has learned a lesson, suggested by his decision to attend the wedding and his swearing to Jack. On the other hand, I don't see him so enlightened that he'd go on to have other relationships with men (though he wouldn't anyway, because he'd still be grieving Jack). Ruthlessly -- I think so. Wouldn't Alma, Sr. be the only one who would confront him? Without his relationship going on with Jack, and without Alma to confront him, I don?t think he'd make any forward steps. In fact, this may shut him down completely as far as intimate, relationship love goes. Diane ? Yes ? If anything, I see him becoming more bitter and homophobic. In his eyes, Jack was murdered for being gay. Jane - Yes I believe this, and here is my supporting document. This is the intro to the song "The Maker Makes", written by Rufus Wainwright for our movie. The song is the very last song played during the film, as the credits are just winding down. Hell most of the people will have left the cinema by the time this song even starts to play!Rufus Wainwright:"It's called The Maker Makes 'cause it's, it's just about, it's
it's sorta a, a the flip side of someone who, who instead of
y'now discovering their homosexuality, y'know moves to
NY, and y'now gets y'know a haircut, um, they decide to
sort of stay, where they are and really forsake their uhm,
their sexuality."
Penth -- I think he just doesn't care anymore. So my anwser would be both: yes and no. I think he is not ashamed anymore (to himself) that he loved Jack and about their relationship. But admitting it to another person - no. And for other possible relationships: I think there are no other possible relationships, so there's no need for any progress in overcoming his fears, because his fears are not important anymore. Mikaela -- Yes and No. He has changed, in that he has reached a level of inner peace and acceptance about what he had with Jack, that part of the conflict in him is gone. But he has no reason to "come out" to the rest of the world any more. Quite the opposite, perhaps: Keeping silent on the subject gives him insurance that nothing or noone will have the opportunity to sullly or disparage his memories of what he had with Jack. Barb - Like Ruthlessly and Diane, yes, I think it would remain intact or become even more entrenched out of bitterness and regret.
Amanda= I worry about Ennis closing that closet door. But, I think he's a different person by the end of the film. I think there's a glimmer of hope that he's learned a massive lesson from Jack and might be more willing to take chances. Ellemeno -- No, I think he had made some peace with himself around being queer (his preferred word) by the time he steps out of that Riverton post office, and more by the time he visits Jack's parents, and more by the time he comes down those stairs with the shirts, and more by the time he is putting the numbers on his mailbox, and more by the time we see those shirts hanging in his closet.