Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
condiments
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 09, 2006, 02:02:04 pm ---Hunh? I must have misworded -- I wasn't suggesting Ennis call his own relatives. I was saying it would be easier for Alma to call her sister than it would be for Ennis to call Alma's sister.
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Just FYI, this is what prompted my pointing out that Ennis really couldn't call his relatives to babysit. If I misread your point, my apologies.
--- Quote ---Could Ennis call the sister himself? I suppose, but I know I'd sure rather my husband call his own family members to babysit in a pinch than do it myself, and I'm pretty close to my in-laws.
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--- Quote ---Well, again, I don't read the look that way -- I read it as suggesting that it's easier for her to take the kids under the circumstances than it would be for him. He's putting on pressure, yes. And it's quite possible he does value his job over hers. But here, his motivation seems to be to be less about male domination than expedience.
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It's possible he values his job more? Just possible? Who do you think he is, the Alan Alda of mid-60s Wyoming? ;)
--- Quote --- (Behavior toward Alma as sexist) Hunh? Outside of the ash-can scene -- and of course the grocery store scene we're debating -- where do you see this?
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How about "doing what she hates" in bed? Never taking her anywhere (e.g. the church social) because he doesn't want to?
--- Quote ---I agree that the value system in which he was raised is undoubtedly sexist -- we know that because we know something about the culture of rural uneducated America. But I see his behavior as distinctly atypical of that. As I said, he doesn't come home from work and crack a beer and turn on the TV and put his feet up and yell, "Hey Alma, I think I hear the girls crying -- better go check on em!" as the cultural sterotype would suggest.
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OK, though I don't believe everyone behaves stereotypically all the time.
--- Quote ---No, just the opposite. He goes to sooth the babies, wipe their noses, later puts them to bed. I have to ask again, how often do you see men in movies doing that? It's not unheard of, but it's not common, either, and especially not when the intention is to portray a character as the sexist product of a sexist culture. To me, what Ennis is doing here IS distinctly different from just showing love. Love is promising to go to the church picnic if he doesn't have to sing. Here he's performing actual childcare -- and not the fun part, either. I don't see the "three hands" remark as venting annoyance at Alma for slaving away at her kitchen drudgery rather than rushing in to attend to her motherly duties. Not at all. I see it as the bewilderment of a man trying to sooth two screaming kids, one in each arm, a situation that can feel overwhelming to anyone, man or woman.
Look, I don't mean to portray Ennis as the Alan Alda of Riverton. I'm sure if he and I got to talking about feminism, there'd be some areas of disagreement. It's just that if Ennis were meant to seem sexist, given that there would be plenty of easy ways to suggest that, and given that men in movies aren't often shown doing domestic chores at all, then why would the fillmmakers bother showing Ennis performing childcare and clearing dishes in the first place? (It was Monroe, remember, who relaxed in front of the TV during Thanksgiving's after-dinner cleanup.)
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Even a male chauvinist pig who is a guest at a holiday dinner in someone's home might bend so far as to take a plate or two to the kitchen, don't you think? The filmmakers needed a device to get Ennis into the kitchen. All Annie Proulx had to say was, "After the pie, Alma got him off in the kitchen" (presumably no pun intended), as though all she might have done was call out, "Hey, Ennis, would you come here a minute?"
--- Quote ---No, I don't blame Alma, either. She had a lot of work to do and sick kids spend a lot of time crying. The reality of parenting is, sometimes you have to let kids cry for a few minutes, knowing they'll survive the experience. She was keeping close enough tabs, however, to know that a nose needed wiping.
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Good point. I merely reported what I read elsewhere.
--- Quote ---BTW, Jeff and Opinionista and ZouBeini and everyone else: Do you see Jack as sexist? After all, Jack grew up in more or less the same culture as Ennis did.
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That's a good question, too. My response to it is, we don't see enough of Jack's domestic life with Lureen to really answer it. (I know you don't like this sort of thing, but I find it interesting to note that in the 2004 screenplay, it was Lureen who complained too much to Bobby's school and was disliked by Bobby's teacher)
ZouBEini:
Sorry for the delay. I've given the topic of Ennis' expression some consideration and while we each see it differently, I'm not able to justify debating a 10 second piece of one scene at any length. I respect everyone's opinions and feel no need to change them. In my opinion, debates built solidly on opinions sometimes have shaky foundations.
As I said before, if anyone finds quantifiable proof I would like to know. Thanks!
Oh, and I don't see Jack as being sexist. His character is too boundless to be sexist IMO.
~Larz
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on July 09, 2006, 04:05:22 pm ---Just FYI, this is what prompted my pointing out that Ennis really couldn't call his relatives to babysit. If I misread your point, my apologies.
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I know. You did. That's OK.
--- Quote ---It's possible he values his job more? Just possible? Who do you think he is, the Alan Alda of mid-60s Wyoming? ;)
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:laugh: OK, so not Alan Alda. How about Phil Donahue?
--- Quote ---How about "doing what she hates" in bed? Never taking her anywhere (e.g. the church social) because he doesn't want to?
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The first thing: maybe, though I hesitate to apply politics to people's sexual habits. (As you note, I don't like to site the story, but at least there he didn't neglect her needs entirely!) The second thing: that's not sexist, that's boring. Sexist would be not letting HER go on her own.
--- Quote ---OK, though I don't believe everyone behaves stereotypically all the time.
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Me neither. But I thought that's what we were debating -- whether he behaves stereotypically or not.
--- Quote ---Even a male chauvinist pig who is a guest at a holiday dinner in someone's home might bend so far as to take a plate or two to the kitchen, don't you think?
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Apparently you've never had dinner at my mother-in-law's house. Not only do no men ever lift a finger to help with the after-dinner cleanup, but my mother-in-law wouldn't dream of expecting them to. And they're not even all that sexist!
--- Quote ---Good point. I merely reported what I read elsewhere.
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I know.
--- Quote from: ZouBEini on July 09, 2006, 06:37:20 pm ---Oh, and I don't see Jack as being sexist. His character is too boundless to be sexist IMO.
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Agreed about Jack. And I feel the same way about Ennis. In fact, I think all of the characters in the movie are so complex and unpredictable they defy stereotyping and pigeonholing.
nakymaton:
Katherine, you don't think someone can be sexist without being a stereotype? Tell you what, I think sexism is a continuum. Ennis isn't at the far end of it - he's not even half as bad as my high school teachers were in the 80's - but, on the other hand, he's further towards the sexist end than my father, and my father is far from perfect.
Nobody in BBM is a stereotype. Well, except maybe the biker dudes and LaShawn. ;D
Luvlylittlewing:
I may totally off-base here, but I think Ennis' expression and general attitude toward Alma in this scene is an indication that he just does not love her. In fact, I believe this scene is showing us the widening water between them. Neither are happy, and I doubt Alma is even in love at this point. I think Ennis is so unhappy, he misses Jack, feels that marrying Alma was expected, but a mistake. I believe Ennis would have been more sympathetic to Alma if he truly loved her. I don't think Ennis is sexist. As others have said, Ennis considers his job more important, which is a typical male attitude in that day and time.
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