Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
condiments
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: opinionista on July 10, 2006, 01:49:45 pm ---Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too.
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Because this movie continually asks us to set aside our preconceptions and judge people not on our expectations but on the behavior we are shown. For example, the movie shows us that our preconceptions of how cowboys behave when they're alone together may not have been accurate. In other words, it's partly about looking beyond cultural stereotypes.
--- Quote ---I also wonder why some of you think calling Ennis a chauvinist is an insult to the character.
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Because sexism, IMO, is a bad thing. Even in 1960s Wyoming it was a bad thing, whether most people thought so then or not.
--- Quote --- It pretty much explains Ennis behavior towards Jack too.
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Hunh?
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 10, 2006, 01:16:50 pm ---Thanks for agreeing with me, Ruthlessly, and also for your excellent analyses of the two scenes.
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My pleasure, ma’am.
--- Quote ---Regarding Ennis, maybe he's afraid not only of abandonment, but also of what a divorce might suggest about him. Maybe he has picked up on vibes between Monroe and Alma; the rest of us certainly have. And if his wife refuses a traditional domestic role (serving dinner), if she leaves him, especially if she leaves him for another man (and kind of a wimpy man at that!), then what does that say about Ennis? Could it be more evidence that he's ... um, not the marrying kind?
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Yep. I have no problem with this at all. It certainly is in Ennis’ character. There’s no reason why several aspects of a character’s character cannot be involved at the same time – as long as the aspects are truly part of the character’s character.
--- Quote ---You've convinced me that the grocery-store scene is not pointless. Now that you mention it, I can see that in the pre-camping scene when Alma, in that panicky voice, brings up Ennis' job and Ennis blows it off ("That foreman, he owes me ...") it does carry a faint reminder of this grocery store exchange.
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Yep. As I always say, the first place to look for interpretation to an otherwise confusing scene or reference is at the previous scene or two and the one or ones that immediately follow. All of the scenes in the movie transition perfectly and each time for a reason.
--- Quote ---Why do some of you think Ennis was not a chauvinist? Most men were like that during the 1960's, so it's pretty much expected that both Ennis and Jack behave that way too.
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You have just given one of the strongest answers to your own question. As has been noted, this film is great because it does not give us what’s expected. Most men in the 1960s weren’t gay… most women in the 1960s didn’t ride horses in competition… most men in the 1960s didn’t show their children dead bodies… etc. All true statements. So even if we expect these things in our cast of characters, we have to take how they are presented to us – we have to accept them for what and who they are.
Ennis and Jack were specifically portrayed as not displaying many qualities that we associate with a sexist or chauvinistic man. And Ennis was displayed as a man who specifically did things that we do not expect to see in a sexist or chauvinistic man. Someone in a post above said that when Ennis tended to the kids while Alma did the laundry, he looked angry at Alma. I just don’t see this. He was simply being a good dad – he practically darted into their room, and on his own accord. Certainly he was frustrated with the situation. Who isn’t frustrated trying to comfort two crying infants?
Finally, there are many emotions that play out in the film. When looking to interpret them, it’s best to go back to the character as he or she has been presented to us. Look at what the character has said and done and what things are important – what are the driving emotions and issues behind each character. Sexism and chauvinism are not portrayed as being driving issues in this film. And this is what makes the film great. It creates complex characters but it does not allow otherwise minor character points to muddy the theme of the film -- the destructive effects of rural homophobia.
--- Quote ---As I said above, in Jack's case it's different because he wasn't the main provider, but he was a chauvinist too.
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I know the film pretty well and I’m pretty good at dissecting it and analyzing it, etc.; but, this one is a real stumper – both assertions.
opinionista:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 10, 2006, 02:09:56 pm ---Because this movie continually asks us to set aside our preconceptions and judge people not on our expectations but on the behavior we are shown. For example, the movie shows us that our preconceptions of how cowboys behave when they're alone together may not have been accurate. In other words, it's partly about looking beyond cultural stereotypes.
Because sexism, IMO, is a bad thing. Even in 1960s Wyoming it was a bad thing, whether most people thought so then or not.
Hunh?
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Well, I agree with what you say about the movie encouraging us to look beyond stereotypes, but still think Ennis lives in a world of unrelenting chauvinism. And so does Jack. Otherwise the story doesn't make sense, IMO.
I can't discuss it any further because I don't have time. But I would like to explain the last line which you answered Hunh? The roots of chauvinsm and homophobia are the same. It's the same kind of mind frame. That doesn't mean that a chauvinist is always an homophobic or vice versa, it depends on many things, but the roots are the same.
--- Quote ---Ennis and Jack were specifically portrayed as not displaying many qualities that we associate with a sexist or chauvinistic man
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How about the scene in which he tells Alma she has to serve the food? He says it's your duty to serve it, or something like that. That's a chauvinistic behavior. The topic of the movie is not about Ennis being a chauvinist, so obviously we wont see that many scenes where he is behaving like one. It just a part of the character. Those scenes are there to give us an idea of what is his frame of mind. That's all.
Front-Ranger:
You can watch the movie on several different levels. On the sociological level, this scene helps show the poverty of the little struggling family as well as the changing times, in that Alma Has a job and she doesn't just automatically cave when Ennis shows up to dump the children on her.
But on another level, this is the first of three times that Alma protests Ennis's behavior. The other two are when he wants her to stay and serve dinner and then when she wants him to "protect" her against another pregnancy. Certain actions happen in threes in this movie. I haven't quite figured out why.
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: opinionista on July 10, 2006, 03:27:11 pm ---How about the scene in which he tells Alma she has to serve the food? He says it's your duty to serve it, or something like that. That's a chauvinistic behavior. The topic of the movie is not about Ennis being a chauvinist, so obviously we wont see that many scenes where he is behaving like one. It just a part of the character. Those scenes are there to give us an idea of what is his frame of mind. That's all.
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Yes, I have no problem with agreeing that there are little bits of sexism or chauvinism, but what I was getting at in the line of mine that you quoted is that the film gives us a stronger message against their being sexists and chauvinists than it gives us a message that they are.
The little bits of sexism and chauvinism are very insignificant to what is really going on in each scene where such things do appear. One of the things that makes this film great is that its subtext is almost always much more important than its text.
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