The World Beyond BetterMost > The Culture Tent
In the New Yorker...
serious crayons:
Yes, I've seen the move toward actor, and have mixed feelings about it. It sounds more jarring (wait, she's a woman -- oh yeah) than the move to comedian from comedienne, which sounds dated. But also, why not call both genders actresses? The move is always toward the masculine. And yes, I can understand the reasons -- if you think calling Julianne Moore an actor is odd, imagine calling Sean Penn an actress. But still, it seems like yet another subtle form of linguistic sexism in a way. Sexism often involves thinking of men as people and women as women, and this assumption that the masculine form is standard seems like a variation on that.
That said, I have seen male coffee-servers referred to as baristas on a number of occasions (not in TNY, as far as I know). But I've chalked that up less to equal opportunity than to people who don't understand how Italian works.
I was in Italy once with a friend who attempted to repel some overaggressive female gypsies (is that an offensive term, BTW? If so, sorry) following us across a square by calling them sporko, which she had heard to be some kind of Italian insult (I thought it meant pig, but not according to Google Translate, which also says it's actually Basque). The women rolled their eyes and corrected her: sporka.
Actually, with two of them, it should have been sporki, I think. In any case, it was hilarious.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on September 27, 2015, 03:08:07 pm ---Yes, I've seen the move toward actor, and have mixed feelings about it. It sounds more jarring (wait, she's a woman -- oh yeah) than the move to comedian from comedienne, which sounds dated. But also, why not call both genders actresses? The move is always toward the masculine. And yes, I can understand the reasons -- if you think calling Julianne Moore an actor is odd, imagine calling Sean Penn an actress. But still, it seems like yet another subtle form of linguistic sexism in a way. Sexism often involves thinking of men as people and women as women, and this assumption that the masculine form is standard seems like a variation on that.
--- End quote ---
That's more or less what was in the back of my mind.
I guess performer could be considered gender neutral, but it's not really specific enough to acting. A performer could be someone who spins plates, or balances something on the end of his or her nose.
I guess singers, at least, are usually just singers, regardless of gender.
--- Quote ---That said, I have seen male coffee-servers referred to as baristas on a number of occasions (not in TNY, as far as I know). But I've chalked that up less to equal opportunity than to people who don't understand how Italian works.
--- End quote ---
I think I have seen barista used in TNY, but I can't prove it so won't swear to it. In any case, I didn't know it was Italian. For no good reason, I thought it was Spanish. Are you saying that barista is a feminine form? I've never heard servers at hoity-toity coffee shops referred to as anything other than baristas.
southendmd:
Barista means "bartender" in Italian, and can be male or female (i.e. there is no "baristo"). However, in the plural, two men are baristi and two women are bariste.
As for the actor thing, the corollary is the continued use of "male model" and "male nurse".
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: southendmd on September 27, 2015, 06:17:58 pm ---As for the actor thing, the corollary is the continued use of "male model" and "male nurse".
--- End quote ---
Interesting point, although I'm not a hunnerd percent persuaded here because there might be situations where the gender descriptor is useful--though clearly there are situations, maybe even the majority of situations, where the gender descriptor is entirely unnecessary.
BTW, thanks for the explanation of barista.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: southendmd on September 27, 2015, 06:17:58 pm ---Barista means "bartender" in Italian, and can be male or female (i.e. there is no "baristo"). However, in the plural, two men are baristi and two women are bariste.
--- End quote ---
Hunh! I guess I'm the one who doesn't know how language works. ::) It seems to be irregular, though. Found this list of general rules online. It's clear there are exceptions, and apparently barista is one of them.
The basic rule is that masculine singular nouns end with -o, feminine singular nouns end with -a. Most words follow this form, but this is not always the case.
Masculine singular nouns can end in -a (rare)
Feminine singular nouns can end in -o (rare)
Both masculine and feminine nouns can end with -e
Nouns ending in -à are always feminine
Nouns ending in -è are always masculine
Nouns ending in -i and in -ù are usually feminine
Nouns ending in -ione are usually feminine
Nouns ending in -mma are usually Greek in origin and masculine
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Italian/Nouns
--- Quote ---As for the actor thing, the corollary is the continued use of "male model" and "male nurse".
--- End quote ---
I guess that is sort of the corollary, if the underlying assumption for actor, comedian, etc., is that those jobs acquired feminine forms when they stopped being performed exclusively by men.
Many jobs that are sometimes masculinized also have gender-neutral titles: postal carrier, police officer, firefighter, flight attendant, Congressional representative, server (or, as we used to call it when I was in the biz, "waitron").
As a writer, I've had trouble from time to time with "fisherman." The gender-neutral equivalent is supposed to be "angler," but who says that in ordinary conversation??
Of course, the big question in the gender-language challenge in English is pronouns for indeterminate people nouns. Like, is it the traditional "When a student finishes his classwork" or "When a student finishes his or her classwork ..." or do you alternate back and forth, or do you go with "their/they/them"? The last is my personally preferred approach (though I don't use it in professional writing) -- I think we should just bite the bullet and adopt it, but it makes some people shudder.
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