The World Beyond BetterMost > The Culture Tent
In the New Yorker...
Jeff Wrangler:
Tell you what. This has got tiresome, and I'm done. I have no interest in discussing/debating cultural constructs across cultures, and I think it's only a minority that is partly there already, and the rest of us are under no obligation to follow, especially in formal writing.
Also, it looks to me that to say the AP stylebook accepts singular they is to tell only half the story. Yes, it does, but apparently as of last year/2017, the complete entry is: "They/them/their is acceptable in limited cases as a singular and-or gender-neutral pronoun, when alternative wording is overly awkward or clumsy. However, rewording usually is possible and always preferable."
AP acceptance is certainly newsworthy, but the guideline is not exactly a ringing endorsement.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on March 06, 2018, 12:36:56 pm ---Tell you what. This has got tiresome, and I'm done.
--- End quote ---
That's fine. I like talking about language. But you've stated your views on "they," and I've stated mine.
--- Quote --- I have no interest in discussing/debating cultural constructs across cultures,
--- End quote ---
I don't even know what that debate would be, because I never did understand what you meant. The ways that gender is understood or performed, the expectations for how genders are expected to behave, certainly differs across cultures, with some cross-cultural similarities. Maybe that's what you meant. But what you said is, "gender is a cultural construct," which sounds as if the whole concept exists only in a cultural sense. That doesn't sound like something you would believe, which is why I kept asking. But if you do, I was curious to hear why.
--- Quote --- and I think it's only a minority that is partly there already
--- End quote ---
You're mixing up my take on the two meanings. Many if not most people already use "they" in the "your doctor" sense in casual ordinary speech. Hardly anybody uses "they" to refer to gender-non-binary people, because many don't even know what that means.
--- Quote ---, and the rest of us are under no obligation to follow, especially in formal writing.
--- End quote ---
Pretty sure I never said anyone is under an obligation to follow! :laugh:
And I'm pretty sure I explicitly did say I myself would not use it (in the "your doctor" sense) in formal writing .
My own formal writing has never involved gender non-binary people. But if it did -- and of course it already does for psychologists and the like -- I would use "they." Using "he" against the person's wishes would sound insensitive to much of your audience (professionals who work with non-binary people or the people themselves -- not the general population). It would sound like insisting on calling trans people by their biological, rather than preferred, gender identity. (Also, I wonder what you'd do if you were talking to my coworker about his non-binary kid?)
Let's take something in between: a newspaper story. If I were writing about a non-binary person, I would say something like "Jordan does not identify with either male or female genders and prefers plural pronouns." Then I would use plural pronouns.
Side note: This may be changing faster than you thought. When my son attended Occidental College, a left-leaning liberal arts school based in LA, everybody at orientation was asked what pronouns they prefer. And professors' pre-set email signatures would say things like, "Frank Smith, who prefers male pronouns."
--- Quote ---"However, rewording usually is possible and always preferable."
--- End quote ---
No argument there. :)
Look, Jeff, you don't have a smartphone, you're not on Facebook, you don't have DVR, etc. Not only because you haven't gotten around to it but because you steadfastly decline to succumb to widespread cultural change. I don't want to psychoanalyze you, but it has been my impression that you pride yourself on sticking with established ways. I'm different in those respects.
So it doesn't surprise me that we have different views on how accepted language usage should evolve.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on March 06, 2018, 12:36:56 pm ---This has got tiresome
--- End quote ---
Not to open a whole new can of worms, but do you always use "got" for past-perfect or whatever that tense is called? I grew up always using "gotten." Then I noticed that the New Yorker uses "got." I'm still figuring out if that's one of the New Yorker's language idiosyncrasies or if it's a regional thing or if it's s just standard correct usage I didn't know about.
Maybe I should consult my AP stylebook!
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on March 07, 2018, 10:23:09 am ---Not to open a whole new can of worms, but do you always use "got" for past-perfect or whatever that tense is called? I grew up always using "gotten." Then I noticed that the New Yorker uses "got." I'm still figuring out if that's one of the New Yorker's language idiosyncrasies or if it's a regional thing or if it's s just standard correct usage I didn't know about.
Maybe I should consult my AP stylebook!
--- End quote ---
No, I don't. I think I go back and forth on that, especially informally. In this case, I wanted to suggest a reference, and I felt I needed a past tense, because in context "Gets tiresome" wouldn't work, and "got" seemed closer to "gets" than "gotten" would be. ;D
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on March 07, 2018, 10:19:22 am ---I don't even know what that debate would be, because I never did understand what you meant. The ways that gender is understood or performed, the expectations for how genders are expected to behave, certainly differs across cultures, with some cross-cultural similarities. Maybe that's what you meant. But what you said is, "gender is a cultural construct," which sounds as if the whole concept exists only in a cultural sense. That doesn't sound like something you would believe, which is why I kept asking. But if you do, I was curious to hear why.
--- End quote ---
Why wouldn't I?
It occurred to me this morning that my views might be heavily influenced by my work, and it seems they are (I've been on my job for 16 years now). Unfortunately I'm now at home (see my blog), so I don't have the book in front of me to quote, but our standard at work is the American Medical Association's style book. The AMA uses sex as a matter of biology, whereas gender relates to how society views a person and how that person self-identifies and lives. That says to me that the AMA regards gender as more of a cultural thing.
Seems sensible to me.
--- Quote ---You're mixing up my take on the two meanings. Many if not most people already use "they" in the "your doctor" sense in casual ordinary speech. Hardly anybody uses "they" to refer to gender-non-binary people, because many don't even know what that means.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for clarifying that.
--- Quote ---Pretty sure I never said anyone is under an obligation to follow! :laugh:
--- End quote ---
No, you didn't, but that sounded to me like the implication of "the rest of society had better catch up."
--- Quote ---My own formal writing has never involved gender non-binary people. But if it did -- and of course it already does for psychologists and the like -- I would use "they." Using "he" against the person's wishes would sound insensitive to much of your audience (professionals who work with non-binary people or the people themselves -- not the general population). It would sound like insisting on calling trans people by their biological, rather than preferred, gender identity.
--- End quote ---
Hmm. I suppose if we all just used trans that would be one way around the whole transgender/transsexual usage issue. And I'm not trying to be funny.
--- Quote ---(Also, I wonder what you'd do if you were talking to my coworker about his non-binary kid?)
--- End quote ---
I'm assuming the kid wants "they" used and the parent is OK with it? I'd use the kid's name, even at the risk of sounding awkward or stilted at times, and if I were asked why I was doing that, I would reply (I hope in a way that didn't sound belligerent) that I don't wish to be insulting but I won't use a plural pronoun top refer to an individual.
--- Quote ---Let's take something in between: a newspaper story. If I were writing about a non-binary person, I would say something like "Jordan does not identify with either male or female genders and prefers plural pronouns." Then I would use plural pronouns.
--- End quote ---
Does Jordan prefer (insist?) on using plural pronouns for everyone, or only for Jordan? ;D
--- Quote ---Side note: This may be changing faster than you thought. When my son attended Occidental College, a left-leaning liberal arts school based in LA, everybody at orientation was asked what pronouns they prefer. And professors' pre-set email signatures would say things like, "Frank Smith, who prefers male pronouns."
--- End quote ---
I guess that says a lot, doesn't it?
--- Quote ---Look, Jeff, you don't have a smartphone, you're not on Facebook, you don't have DVR, etc. Not only because you haven't gotten around to it but because you steadfastly decline to succumb to widespread cultural change. I don't want to psychoanalyze you, but it has been my impression that you pride yourself on sticking with established ways. I'm different in those respects.
--- End quote ---
No, you shouldn't. You're not a psychoanalyst, and your impression is mistaken. Pride has nothing to do with it. To an extent stinginess probably does. It seems that in this I'm very like my father to the point you might think I was raised right next to him in the Depression. I just don't believe in giving up something that works perfectly well for me until whatever that something is no longer works for me, or needs to be replaced. I've got a perfectly functioning 1990s TV (great picture, great sound--better than the flat-screen I got at work). Why get rid of a perfectly functioning appliance just because I can't hook it up to my PC? When I no longer had the use of a PC at my job (because the job was eliminated), I got one of my own. When it became difficult if not impossible to make long-distance phone calls from hotel-room telephones, I got a cell phone.
Here's where the stinginess comes in. I simply don't believe in spending money on new technology just because it's new. I realize lots of people are perfectly fine with that, otherwise they wouldn't stand in line all night whenever Apple comes out with a new iPhone. But I'm not the kid who has to be the first on the block to have the latest toy. That's just not who I am.
But I'll also say this. I know I've said before that just about every time I bring myself to the point of going on Facebook, I hear another horror story about Facebook (usually related to flaming--I believe that's the word?). But it appears that Facebook is rapidly becoming something necessary for my life. I see that. It gives me no pleasure to admit this more or less publicly, but if I'm honest with myself, I believe what is really holding me back is lack of self-confidence that I can set up an account without somehow screwing it up, especially with regards to security.
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