The World Beyond BetterMost > Women Today
Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on March 14, 2009, 06:56:40 pm ---I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.
The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.
Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.
I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???
--- End quote ---
Hi Lee!! It's so great to see you here on this thread Bud! :) I agree that there's still a lot of work to be done, and that progress in terms of women's rights is often one step forward and two steps back, in terms of pendulums swinging, trends reversing, and people taking things for granted. Yes, as far as the younger generation of folks coming up, it really is important to not take things for granted and to remember that guarding hard-won rights and equality is as important as fighting for yet-to-be truly realized rights, such as equal pay.
--- Quote from: serious crayons on March 14, 2009, 07:02:29 pm ---How odd! You phrase this as if you don't realize this is already being done, by Western feminists as well as feminists who grew up and/or live in in those places.
--- End quote ---
And, K, I think this is an excellent point. There are organized groups as well as individual women (and men) risking their lives in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan trying to protect women and fight for women's most basic rights. The obstacles there are tremendous, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still challenges in very different cultures such as the U.S. A concern for one doesn't at all negate a concern for the other.
And, K, is right that it doesn't always come down simply to laws. In the U.S., there are cultural forces at work that are concerns for feminists too. To cite two somewhat random issues that come to mind... the huge societal pressures surrounding body image (leading to eating disorders and major self-esteem issues)... and violence issues (domestic violence, date rape, etc.) that involve cultural change and major changes in societal attitudes to combat and try to resolve. In regards to issues like domestic and sexual violence, yes, laws and the justice system are factors... but there are much more intricate social issues and attitudes at work in dealing with problems like that as well.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on March 14, 2009, 07:30:42 pm ---And, K, is right that it doesn't always come down simply to laws. In the U.S., there are cultural forces at work that are concerns for feminists too. To cite two somewhat random issues that come to mind... the huge societal pressures surrounding body image (leading to eating disorders and major self-esteem issues)... and violence issues (domestic violence, date rape, etc.) that involve cultural change and major changes in societal attitudes to combat and try to resolve. In regards to issues like domestic and sexual violence, yes, laws and the justice system are factors... but there are much more intricate social issues and attitudes at work in dealing with problems like that as well.
--- End quote ---
Good point, A. Another one: domestic work and caregiving. Women, even in Western cultures, do far far more of domestic labor and caring for children and old people. This type of work comes without pay or Social Security benefits, and limits women's ability to perform work that does pay. There are no laws addressing this issue.
Even issues that ARE addressed by law are often not resolved with laws. For instance, even it it's illegal to hire or promote on the basis of gender, it's often nearly impossible to discover and/or prove that it's happening.
brokeplex:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on March 14, 2009, 06:56:40 pm ---I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.
The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.
Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.
I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???
--- End quote ---
Ranger, you must be exaggerating! I don't care what aspect of US society you wish to discuss, women are superachievers!
Politics - do I really have to remind everyone that the Speaker of the House and the Secretary of State are women
Communications - what is the ratio of women to men anchors, reporters, columnists? women are everywhere in the industry
Academia - women are much more than a few token Deans, Chancellors, University Presidents - look at the ratio of men to women in academia and a case can be made that MEN are being discriminated against.
see : http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys
The War Against Boys
This we think we know: American schools favor boys and grind down girls. The truth is the very opposite. By virtually every measure, girls are thriving in school; it is boys who are the second sex
by Christina Hoff Sommers
Arts - there are WAY more than a few token female museum directors and curators, symphony conductors, pop artists, C&W artists
In the writing "team" of Proulx, Ossana and McMurtry - I think that is a 2:1 ratio in favor of women
Business - there are numerous CEO's that are women, and there are more female entrepreneurial startups each and every year, than male startups.
and this can go on and on, as US society has completely changed from my grandmother's day, when it was very rare indeed to find women in places of accomplishment.
now lets visit that Islamic world, there you have a great case that women are brutally subjugated.
delalluvia:
You all responded to Bill's post much better than I could have. I agree with ya'll. Discrimination against women is definitely not over and dead in this country.
Heck, all I have to do is look around me at work. We have several 50+ year old women, they are obese grandmothers and not much to look at, but they are workaholics, know their jobs inside and out, are very people-oriented and when the promotions came - who got them?
The prettiest women in our area - 30 plus years younger than these women - and the men these older women trained.
Not sure what kind of discrimination was going on there, but there certainly was.
--- Quote ---And yet another is the question of whether traditional women's interests and activities are undervalued because they actually hold less value (explaining why women were pushed into them), or does society just consider them less valuable because women do them? Marge_innavera and I got into this debate a few months ago with regard to beauty contests. Are beauty contests inherently more trivial than football?
--- End quote ---
IMO it's because women are doing it. I can't recall where I read this, but in some area in Africa, no matter who was doing what, if the men were doing it, it was higher status.
e.g. in one tribe, the women did all the making of pottery. They got no status for it. In another tribe, the men did all the making of pottery and they were held up as leaders of the tribe. In another tribe, if women did the weaving, it was a low status drudge job. If the men did it, it was an art form. In tribes where men do the fieldwork, they are the farmers and breadwinners, in other tribes where the fieldwork is done primarily by women, it's a drudge job only fit for women, because men have the leisure to hold the important clan and political roles.
Sorta along the lines of women are cooks, men are chefs.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: brokeplex on March 14, 2009, 07:45:53 pm ---Ranger, you must be exaggerating! I don't care what aspect of US society you wish to discuss, women are superachievers!
Politics - do I really have to remind everyone that the Speaker of the House and the Secretary of State are women
Communications - what is the ratio of women to men anchors, reporters, columnists? women are everywhere in the industry
Academia - women are much more than a few token Deans, Chancellors, University Presidents - look at the ratio of men to women in academia and a case can be made that MEN are being discriminated against.
see : http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys
The War Against Boys
This we think we know: American schools favor boys and grind down girls. The truth is the very opposite. By virtually every measure, girls are thriving in school; it is boys who are the second sex
by Christina Hoff Sommers
Arts - there are WAY more than a few token female museum directors and curators, symphony conductors, pop artists, C&W artists
In the writing "team" of Proulx, Ossana and McMurtry - I think that is a 2:1 ratio in favor of women
Business - there are numerous CEO's that are women, and there are more female entrepreneurial startups each and every year, than male startups.
and this can go on and on, as US society has completely changed from my grandmother's day, when it was very rare indeed to find women in places of accomplishment.
now lets visit that Islamic world, there you have a great case that women are brutally subjugated.
--- End quote ---
Bill just because we're not at the level of Islam, doesn't mean there is no discrimination worth fighting. You're a gay man, do you think gay people in this country are just whining? Equal rights is over and done! Heck, there was a gay president. There are gay men all over Hollywood and the arts. Gay people can have civil unions and marriages. They can be out in most all areas. Now let's visit the Islamic world where you really have a case of brutal subjugation of gay people...
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