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Sword and Sandal movie updates
Mikaela:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on July 09, 2009, 05:46:36 pm ---And I have several historical books about Alexander and the first battle is pretty much what historians believe actually happened, and the battle is called strategic genius on Alexander's part, so it's pretty funny that you think the battle didn't have much structure.
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Oh, I'm sure the battle itself was as structured as all that - but the lengthy scenes in the movie didn't communicate that to me. At all. I'm beginning to feel foolish about that - you and Kerry are a convincing couple - but then I remember the opinions of all the reviewers and I take comfort in not being alone, at last.
I would hazard the opinion that possessing relatively detailed knowledge of Alexander's travels and conquests, the main men around him, and the important historical events, made the film much more interesting and understandable. Both you and Kerry seem to have considerable historic knowledge of the man and his times.
--- Quote ---Hmmm, well, the narrator - shown as an old man, Anthony Hopkins in the film, - actually had a map on the wall. I'm no expert in geography myself, but I think most people know that Alexander conquered the Persian empire and occupied Babylon - which most everyone knows was in Iraq - and that he eventually reached India. So I think it's just a matter of deductive reasoning and knowing what is between Iraq and and India to give you some sort of reference point to imagine where Sogdia, Baktria might have been.
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Well, I did deduct they were't in the Americas. ;D The trouble with Alexander is that he conquered such an immense area that any named district or country could be on the plains of Iraq, the deserts of Arabia, or the mountains of Afghanistan. And if I remember correctly, Roxane herself was a Sogdian and that was......near Afghanistan? That country always spells trouble.
But I do think it's the responsibility of a filmmaker of movies like this to make it clearer to the movie's general audience what's going on and where it's going on. I know a sizeable percentage of Americans are unable to place current-day Iraq on a map of the world. Unfortunately I do think you are too optimistic in assuming most people know which areas Alexander conquered, where that was and even that Babylon=Iraq.
--- Quote ---The similarities were astounding and there were tattooed snakes all over Roxanne's body.
She was a vicious thing and so was Alexander's mother. I loved Angelina's portrayal of Olympias. She was soooooooo scary.
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Hey, I didn't notice that about the tattooed snakes. As I said, I found the scene pretty embarrassing, I rather pitied the actors and that means I didn't look too closely at either of them. I think Rosario Dawson is a fine actress though.
--- Quote --- From Bagoas' POV, which I think misses the important parts of Alexanders socio-political strategy - and - I realized Pressfield has already done this in his Alexander books - from the POV of a young lieutenant in Alexander's army, which also fails since obviously Alexander is not going to expose or confide anything really personal to an underling in his army, so what we basically need is a movie from Hephaestion's POV. He had been with Alexander since childhood and no one knew him better. Not only was he Alexander's lover and spouse-substitute, but a general in his army and an important - 2nd only to Alexander - vizier in his empire's government so he will have seen it all, except of course for Alexander going downhill after his death. But that's easily portrayed from an outside character since we'll have already seen what had gone on within Alexander's head and heart from he who was most important to the man.
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Yes, I agree - that was one of the possibilities I suggested too (though I seemingly am unable to wrap my mind around the English version of Hephaestion's name and to spell it properly.) I'd like to see that.
But I'd like to see TPB filmed first and foremost. I have a huge, big soft spot for that book and its main characters together. And if I remember correctly, one of the few certain historical mentions of Bagoas is Alexander kissing him publicly after some competition, egged on by his men? 8)
Not that I think there will be another Alexander movie any time soon. :-\
To end on a positive note on the movie, one thing I liked about the film, was the scene where Alexander enters Babylon as conqueror. That was awesome. A scene where all those special effects were well worth it!
Kerry:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 09, 2009, 11:22:55 am ---*Hands Kerry a fan that - hopefully - would have been good enough for Alexander*
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Thank you for the exquisite fan, Mikaela. I love it. :D
Kerry:
I too found the Alexander/Roxane sex scene somewhat embarrassing. but I think Oliver Stone was trying to portray the widely held view in the Ancient Greek world, that men were for love and women were for making babies. Sad but true. I think Stone beautifully portrayed the dignified, understated, deep love between Alexander and Hephaestion, as opposed to the coarse, raw sex experience by Alexander and Roxane.
The narrator of the film is Alexander's general, Ptolemy, played by Anthony Hopkins. Because Alexander did not name a successor (and his son was murdered), the empire was divided between his generals following his death. Ptolemy claimed Egypt and retired to Alexandria, where he became Pharaoh (Cleopatra is one of his descendants). I don't know the name of the actor who played the young Ptolemy in the film. He was the tall chap with the blond curly/frizzy hair.
Re the location of Alexander's world, unless I'm mistaken, a map of the empire appears full-screen, at the beginning of the film.
Kerry:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 09, 2009, 09:58:09 pm ---
I would hazard the opinion that possessing relatively detailed knowledge of Alexander's travels and conquests, the main men around him, and the important historical events, made the film much more interesting and understandable. Both you and Kerry seem to have considerable historic knowledge of the man and his times.
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I recommend you read this wonderful book, Mikaela. I've read it many times over the years.
Mikaela:
--- Quote from: Kerry on July 10, 2009, 09:39:12 am ---I too found the Alexander/Roxane sex scene somewhat embarrassing. but I think Oliver Stone was trying to portray the widely held view in the Ancient Greek world, that men were for love and women were for making babies. Sad but true. I think Stone beautifully portrayed the dignified, understated, deep love between Alexander and Hephaestion, as opposed to the coarse, raw sex experience by Alexander and Roxane.
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"Widely held" views in the Greek world on this subject were widely held among men. Which means less than 50% can have held that view. One hopes women thought of themselves as slightly above mere moronic baby producing machines even if male-dominated society didn't allow them to reach their potential in so many ways.
I'm sorry, and this is not directed at you Kerry, but there are few things that annoy me more than modern historians and scolars discussing or presenting ancient Greece or Ancient Rome and speaking as if the male half of the population was the whole "real" population - and reducing women (50% of the population, except that so many women died in childbirth that AFAIK they represented less than 50% in adult age groups) to a small insignificant chapter of "special interest". Right next to that equally limited chapter about the condition for slaves. The Ancient Greek person wasn't by default a "he".
The ancient male attitude towards m/m relationships being far above m/f relationships is so misogynistic it makes me see red. It's a sad state of affairs that in societies where male homosexual relationships were approved of and even lauded this came only as the flip side of a coin that severely repressed women and denied them any sort of status, worth and equal terms.
Olympias seemed to consider herself more than a meek baby making machine, so one would think Alexander had some perspective on the matter, but no doubt he accepted and was a product of the prevailing attitude among upper class men and male philosophers at the time.
No wonder Roxane was spitting mad, being reduced to a "coarse raw sex experience". So if that was what Stone was trying to convey, perhaps even that scene makes sense after all.
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