Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
P.O. Boxes, Mailboxes and the No. 17
Jeff Wrangler:
I still find none of this even semi-convincing.
--- Quote from: latjoreme on March 02, 2007, 06:43:16 pm ---I think Mr. Twist could probably surmise that if Jack always talked about bringing Ennis up to the ranch, and then Ennis shows up to collect the ashes, that Ennis was not ignorant of Jack's desire that they live together. And in any case, he knows that Jack evidently for years held hopes that Ennis would do it, then suddenly switched to talking about another fella -- suggesting that Jack's hopes had fallen through.
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It's pretty clear from his demeanor that John Twist thinks he knows the exact nature of Jack and Ennis's connection--and we know that he's correct in surmising that Ennis was Jack's homosexual lover.
But it still seems to me that any impulse on his part to punish Ennis for supposedly failing Jack would have to grow out of real love for his son, and this brings me back to the behavior, the comments about none of Jack's plans working out, the spitting, which still to me shows nothing but contempt for Jack--and implicitly for Ennis and for Ennis and Jack's relationship.
Sue me for once again allowing the story to color a movie discussion ;D , but this is the man who urinated on his own child. :P
--- Quote ---But we do know that Jack asked Ennis to ranch up.
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Yes, but what we know about Ennis and Jack is irrelevant for understanding John Twist's motivations. What matters is what his character knows--or thinks he knows--about Ennis and Jack.
--- Quote --- He (Jack) may not have mentioned LF specifically, but I don't think it's necessary for him to have done so in order for OMT to realize that Ennis let Jack down. Even if Jack never mentioned LF and therefore OMT is wrongly assuming that he had, that wouldn't affect the plausibility of the theory, because it's OMT's perceptions that are important to it, not reality.
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Right! But in the end the plausibilty of the theory is affected by what I have to regard as a serious and overly romanticized misreading of John Twist's character.
--- Quote from: opinionista on March 02, 2007, 07:59:12 pm ---I think he wanted Jack home. It was probably a way of showing his love and his pain over losing him.
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I'm sorry, Natali, but I have to disagree with you, too. I see no love here--not in light of that comment that Jack "thought he was too damned special to be buried in the family plot," and the tone with which that comment is made.
We see nothing to indicate that John Twist loved his son, only that he was what Annie Proulx describes, a hard-bitten man with the need to be the stud duck in the pond (remember, the term derives from Annie's description of John Twist, not of Jack's father-in-law).
The whole ashes business is nothing but his final act of power over the son of whom he was contemptuous. And that's sad, really; really sad. :(
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on March 02, 2007, 10:32:55 pm ---I still find none of this even semi-convincing.
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Jeff, I'll have to say, I love seeing a post from you, even when it opens like that! :laugh:
--- Quote ---It's pretty clear from his demeanor that John Twist thinks he knows the exact nature of Jack and Ennis's connection--and we know that he's correct in surmising that Ennis was Jack's homosexual lover.
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Agreed.
--- Quote ---But it still seems to me that any impulse on his part to punish Ennis for supposedly failing Jack would have to grow out of real love for his son,
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Yes, the way I've laid it out. It's not inconceivable that OMT could want to punish Ennis even if he didn't love his son. Sometimes SOBs are like that. But yes, the theory I described calls for him loving his son and punishing Ennis for letting him down.
--- Quote --- and this brings me back to the behavior, the comments about none of Jack's plans working out, the spitting, which still to me shows nothing but contempt for Jack--and implicitly for Ennis and for Ennis and Jack's relationship.
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Well, none of Jack's plans DID work out. You don't have to feel contemptuous of him to think that. And the spitting could as easily be interpreted as contempt for Ennis. But I see nothing in his behavior that indicates disapproval of Ennis and Jack's relationship.
--- Quote ---Sue me for once again allowing the story to color a movie discussion ;D , but this is the man who urinated on his own child. :P
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OK, but in the story Mrs. Twist is portrayed differently, too: "stout [!] and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation ... He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them." In the movie, Mrs. Twist's empathy is the driving force behind a heartbreakingly poignant scene. In the story, she barely passes as a sympathetic character.
And while we're on the subject of the story. What's the first thing OMT says when he starts complaining about Jack? Is it "Jack shamed the family by not being a proper sort of husband" or "Jack broke the laws of Nature"? No. It's "I can't get no help out here." Selfish, yes. But OMT's need for help with licking the ranch into shape overshadows his disapproval of Jack's plans for providing that help, even though they include leaving his wife to live with another man.
--- Quote ---Yes, but what we know about Ennis and Jack is irrelevant for understanding John Twist's motivations. What matters is what his character knows--or thinks he knows--about Ennis and Jack.
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Absolutely!
--- Quote ---Right! But in the end the plausibilty of the theory is affected by what I have to regard as a serious and overly romanticized misreading of John Twist's character.
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Overly romanticized? Now you're going too far! :laugh: I'm not saying he's the Messiah. I simply don't think OMT is a figure of pure evil. And I don't think he openly displays homophobia. I do think he's an SOB.
May I suggest, Jeff and Natali and anyone else interested, that we move this discussion over to the "Ennis and Old Man Twist" thread, which Amanda thoughtfully bumped for this very purpose? I could discuss OMT all night, but I'll admit he doesn't have much to do with mailboxes or the No. 17 ...
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on March 03, 2007, 01:59:39 am ---Yes, the way I've laid it out. It's not inconceivable that OMT could want to punish Ennis even if he didn't love his son. Sometimes SOBs are like that. But yes, the theory I described calls for him loving his son and punishing Ennis for letting him down.
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And it's also true that grieving people can lash out irrationally and indiscriminately.
--- Quote ---Well, none of Jack's plans DID work out. You don't have to feel contemptuous of him to think that. And the spitting could as easily be interpreted as contempt for Ennis. But I see nothing in his behavior that indicates disapproval of Ennis and Jack's relationship.
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Well, I might vote for the coldness of his demeanor as indicating his disapproval, but we don't really see anything that indicates approval, either, do we?
--- Quote ---OK, but in the story Mrs. Twist is portrayed differently, too: "stout [!] and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation ... He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them." In the movie, Mrs. Twist's empathy is the driving force behind a heartbreakingly poignant scene. In the story, she barely passes as a sympathetic character.
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Indeed, yes!
--- Quote ---And while we're on the subject of the story. What's the first thing OMT says when he starts complaining about Jack? Is it "Jack shamed the family by not being a proper sort of husband" or "Jack broke the laws of Nature"? No. It's "I can't get no help out here." Selfish, yes. But OMT's need for help with licking the ranch into shape overshadows his disapproval of Jack's plans for providing that help, even though they include leaving his wife to live with another man.
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True, though I have to wonder how he would have reacted if they ever had built that cabin for the two of them to live in.
--- Quote ---Overly romanticized? Now you're going too far! :laugh: I'm not saying he's the Messiah. I simply don't think OMT is a figure of pure evil. And I don't think he openly displays homophobia. I do think he's an SOB.
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Well, I didn't mean to imply that I thought he was necessarily "pure evil," either, but he is a hard, mean man, with a need to be the stud duck in the pond, and he does not love his son. And any man who would urinate on a child to teach him a lesson needs to learn a lesson himself--on the business end of a bull whip. ;D
--- Quote ---May I suggest, Jeff and Natali and anyone else interested, that we move this discussion over to the "Ennis and Old Man Twist" thread, which Amanda thoughtfully bumped for this very purpose? I could discuss OMT all night, but I'll admit he doesn't have much to do with mailboxes or the No. 17 ...
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Well, yeah, though I think I've pretty much said all I have to say on this theory of John Twist's motivation. Any more and I'll probably just be repeating myself. I have already in this post. :-\
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on March 03, 2007, 02:35:01 pm ---And it's also true that grieving people can lash out irrationally and indiscriminately.
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Yup.
--- Quote ---Well, I might vote for the coldness of his demeanor as indicating his disapproval, but we don't really see anything that indicates approval, either, do we?
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Nope. I agree he shows disapproval -- just not the kind of disapproval Ennis and viewers might have expected. That is, it evidently isn't disapproval of Jack planning to live with another man so much as Jack failing to follow through on the plan.
--- Quote ---True, though I have to wonder how he would have reacted if they ever had built that cabin for the two of them to live in.
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Well, I can't see him throwing them a housewarming party.
--- Quote ---Well, I didn't mean to imply that I thought he was necessarily "pure evil," either, but he is a hard, mean man, with a need to be the stud duck in the pond, and he does not love his son. And any man who would urinate on a child to teach him a lesson needs to learn a lesson himself--on the business end of a bull whip. ;D
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Agreed, regarding story-OMT. I think story-OMT and film-OMT are as different as the story and film versions of various other characters.
--- Quote ---Well, yeah, though I think I've pretty much said all I have to say on this theory of John Twist's motivation. Any more and I'll probably just be repeating myself. I have already in this post. :-\
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At this point, Jeff, there's probably nothing either of us could say about the movie that we haven't said somewhere before, hunh? ;D
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on March 03, 2007, 03:18:36 pm ---Well, I can't see him throwing them a housewarming party.
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How 'bout a Tupperware party? ;D
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