Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 16, 2006, 04:55:48 pm ---And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.
--- End quote ---
That's probably true, but "what happens in X points inevitably to what happens in X" is vague enough to be interpreted any number of ways. I mean, another way is, Ennis turns down Jack's proposal in the motel, so inevitably 16 years later Jack is frustrated.
Isn't it funny that a movie and story that on the surface are so similar -- except for scenes added to "flesh out" the plot, the only change the filmmakers have really owned up to -- are actually so different once you start picking them apart? Different characters, different motivations, different symbols, even whole different larger meanings.
--- Quote from: nakymaton on September 16, 2006, 04:17:02 pm ---Sure. Here are just few I can think of ...
- You know that old shirt of yours...?
--- End quote ---
:laugh:
How about:
-- Remember that time I said "me neither"? Well, actually ...
-- Well, all right, now that you mention it, remember when I said "I aint"?
-- OK, I'll admit it: your harmonica playing really isn't half bad.
-- You know, Alma has a cute nickname for you.
nakymaton:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 16, 2006, 04:55:48 pm ---Let's bear in mind that the "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" line is film-only. Story Ennis doesn't say one little word. He just collapses on his knees, fists clenched and eyes screwed shut--and Jack isn't sure if he's had a heart attack or if it's "the overflow of an incendiary rage" that causes the collapse.
--- End quote ---
Did it ever strike you as odd... that this may be the only time when movie-Ennis actually says more than story-Ennis does?
--- Quote ---And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but an awful lot goes on in the Siesta Motel.
Ennis talks about:
- The punch
- The army not getting Jack
- Trying to figure out if he was ---?
- Doing it with other guys (or not)
- The trying-to-puke incident
- The responsibilities involved in having wives and kids
- More about the punch
- Ennis's horrible childhood memory about seeing Earl dead in the ditch
- ...and the role Ennis's dad had in that memory
- and then hating that Jack's going to drive away in the morning.
Jack talks about:
- Good sex and red-lining it all the way
- No money in rodeo, lots of money in Lureen
- Getting out of the rodeo
- The lie about not having sex with other guys
- Working out what to do now
- What Aguirre might have seen
- The Proposal
- "once in a while ever four f***in years?"
- ...and then getting away to the mountains.
So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there. On Ennis's end, the fears and guilt and confusion and responsibility; on Jack's end, the desire to live together. And did you notice how they talk past each other at one point? Jack keeps talking about wanting to get out of the rodeo and change things; Ennis keeps going back to his confusion and fears and responsibilities. In the end, Ennis hears the proposal and Jack gets the message about Ennis's fears, but they still don't really resolve things.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: nakymaton on September 16, 2006, 07:17:36 pm ---So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there.
--- End quote ---
Yup. That's why the motel scene is central in the story.
dly64:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 16, 2006, 04:55:48 pm ---The implied threat to quit Ennis is surely is part of the collapse, but can you really parse out a single cause here? Jack's just let go at him with both barrels. And considering that Ennis has just threatened to kill Jack, I still think the infidelity is a big deal to Ennis. Whether he's had his head in the sand for 16 years, I don't know, but having to face up to it is clearly a big issue.
And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.
--- End quote ---
You are leaving out a paragraph ….
“ ‘Jesus,’ said Jack. ‘Ennis?’ But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”
The key line here is “ …. for what they’d said was no news.” Earlier, when Ennis confronts Jack and says, “What I don’t know … all them things that I don’t know could get you killed if I should come to know them.” …. Ennis is implying that he does know. Ennis doesn’t know the specifics, but he is aware of “all them things …” Certainly it is hurtful and it is seen as a betrayal. But it is no surprise.
--- Quote from: nakymaton on September 16, 2006, 07:17:36 pm ---So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there. On Ennis's end, the fears and guilt and confusion and responsibility; on Jack's end, the desire to live together. And did you notice how they talk past each other at one point? Jack keeps talking about wanting to get out of the rodeo and change things; Ennis keeps going back to his confusion and fears and responsibilities. In the end, Ennis hears the proposal and Jack gets the message about Ennis's fears, but they still don't really resolve things.
--- End quote ---
But isn’t that the tragedy of their relationship? It's because Ennis and Jack love each other and can find no way to deal with that. They talk past each other when it comes to their relationship. Jack, the dreamer, wishes for a life together …. a place of their own. Ennis, the pragmatist, sees his current life as a prison that he cannot escape and, by the same token, does not want to escape. Neither one can understand the other’s POV and they continue to hurt each other until it finally comes to a head at the lake scene.
One element of the story that we haven’t really touched on is before Ennis and Jack’s final confrontation. This is one part of the story that I like better than the film. Ennis and Jack are talking about their lives. It is in this conversation that I see their intimacy. It is here that Jack becomes most vulnerable when he admits that he misses Ennis “bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies.” (I like the wording better in the film … but the essence is the same). Then it goes into this description (I am skipping some dialogue … but it is to get the point across):
“Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis’s legs, said he was worried about his boy ….
‘I used a want a boy for a kid,’ said Ennis undoing buttons, ‘but just got little girls.’
‘I didn’t want none a either kind,’ said Jack. ‘But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted …..’ Without getting up he through deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truth and lies, a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt. One thing that never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough.”
My biggest gripe about the film is that it tones down the passion between Jack and Ennis as they grow older. The lake scene in the film does show Jack’s vulnerability … admitting he misses Ennis to the point he can’t stand it. But it skips from that moment to TS3 … which is an intimate scene, but does not reflect the intensity of the passion they still have for each other.
BTW – Katherine … loved the Brokeback slang thread. HILARIOUS!
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: goadra on September 16, 2006, 10:14:57 pm ---"If you can believe it, I got a better idea from Aguirre once. Instead of telling our wives we was fishin’ buddies, we shoulda said we been gardening all these years.”
--- End quote ---
:laugh: :laugh:
"Alma, you got it all wrong! We was just stemming the rose!"
"No, Lureen, it's not a pretend place, in fact we was stemming the rose on Brokeback, back in the summer a '63"
Right, TJ?
But also, regarding the "I love you" in every sentence:
-- Why don't you let me be? (which I can't do myself because I love you)
-- It's because of you, Jack, I'm like this (i.e., I'm trapped in this dead end because I love you)
-- I'm nothin, I'm nowhere (I've given up job opportunities and feel trapped in this situation because I love you)
-- I can't stand this no more, Jack (becaue we're apart and I don't know how to change that, yet I love you)
Oops, I guess those are all movie-Ennis again (hey, go away, movie-Ennis; we're talking about story-Ennis at the moment! Wait -- no, don't!).Story Ennis has precious little to say during the whole lakeside argument. Jack gives his whole speech and Ennis collapses -- end of scene, more or less.
In the movie, the camera turns to Ennis, who has his back to us, and when he turns around the music swells, as if indicating that here is an important moment. Jack has been speaking angrily, but Ennis is actually crying. All of which adds to the scene's complexity and pathos, and gives a lot of weight to what Ennis has to say (and, I would argue, paradoxically belies his blame of Jack).
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