Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on November 30, 2006, 02:37:27 pm ---Yes, I think there is, though maybe it's a question of "proving it to whom?" If by "proving his masculinity" you mean "to himself," I think that requires a level of sophistication and self-awareness--not to say education--that I think Ennis lacks. I never bring my copy of the story with me to work (Lord, it's been months since I last wrote that statement! ;D ), but I think I remember that in the blurb on the jacket it says that Ennis and Jack marry women and father children "because that's what cowboys do." That's what people do in Wyoming--and probably anywhere else in small-town America--in 1963, and probably still do in a lot of places today.
--- End quote ---
Nice to see you around on a thread that makes you feel the need of your book, Jeff! :D
Anyway, are you saying Ennis isn't capable of needing to prove anything to himself ever -- or just in regard to getting married? If it's the latter, I agree; I think he gets married sort of automatically, because that's what's expected of him. Otherwise, though, he spends a lot of time trying to prove to himself that he "ain't queer." He's concerned about keeping up appearances, too, but it's his own self-image that's most at stake, even if he didn't hear that concept from Dr. Phil.
As for whether he sleeps with Cassie, remember that according to the timeline of the movie, anyway, they've been together for something like FOUR F'IN YEARS. If they hadn't slept together by then, I think what Cassie would have said in the bus station is, "Oh, I got you about three and a half years ago, Ennis Del Mar." That is, I think she'd early on have begun to wonder what's up, at the very least, most likely would have figured it out pretty quickly and in any case probably would have been out the door long ago.
But sleeping with Cassie or Alma and really WANTING to sleep with Cassie or Alma are two different things. He must have made it convincing enough, because neither woman seems eager to split up. But neither movie Ennis nor story Ennis seems very excited about the prospect of sleeping with women. I don't really believe story Ennis when he says, "I like doin it with women." At least, I don't think he likes beyond just the opportunity to, well, you know ...
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on November 30, 2006, 06:35:56 pm ---Nice to see you around on a thread that makes you feel the need of your book, Jeff! :D
Anyway, are you saying Ennis isn't capable of needing to prove anything to himself ever -- or just in regard to getting married? If it's the latter, I agree; I think he gets married sort of automatically, because that's what's expected of him. Otherwise, though, he spends a lot of time trying to prove to himself that he "ain't queer." He's concerned about keeping up appearances, too, but it's his own self-image that's most at stake, even if he didn't hear that concept from Dr. Phil.
As for whether he sleeps with Cassie, remember that according to the timeline of the movie, anyway, they've been together for something like FOUR F'IN YEARS. If they hadn't slept together by then, I think what Cassie would have said in the bus station is, "Oh, I got you about three and a half years ago, Ennis Del Mar." That is, I think she'd early on have begun to wonder what's up, at the very least, most likely would have figured it out pretty quickly and in any case probably would have been out the door long ago.
But sleeping with Cassie or Alma and really WANTING to sleep with Cassie or Alma are two different things. He must have made it convincing enough, because neither woman seems eager to split up. But neither movie Ennis nor story Ennis seems very excited about the prospect of sleeping with women. I don't really believe story Ennis when he says, "I like doin it with women." At least, I don't think he likes beyond just the opportunity to, well, you know ...
--- End quote ---
Thanks, Honey! ;D
I guess I was thinking strictly about the marriage issue. I like your phrase, "gets married sort of automatically," as that very well conveys what I was thinking.
No offense intended to Mel, but I guess maybe I just have this gut feeling that "proving his masculinity" is too sophisticated a concept to apply to Ennis. I think he would more likely think just in terms of "doing the right thing," "doing the normal thing," "just doing what people just do"--that sort of thing. Of course, what he does might have the same practical effect as "proving his masculinity."
But, yeah, apparently he does spend a lot of time trying to convince himself that he ain't queer.
And I've never quite made up my mind how important is the detail that Ennis apparently preferred to "do it" with Alma the same way he, of necessity ;D , "did it" with Jack.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: moremojo on November 30, 2006, 04:36:45 pm ---This is a very poignant speculation, and shows good insight into the multiple nuances of the human character.
--- End quote ---
Just had to say, Thank you for that, Scott! :)
Brown Eyes:
I think Ennis is definitely in the business of proving himself to himself (in terms of some sort of internalized notion of conventional masculinity that he seems to have) through a lot of the book (and film). I don't think he need to understand what he's doing, it's just a part of his underlying motivation for a lot of his decisions throughout the plot (and I don't think his level of education comes into play here at all). He loves Jack without understanding it... it just happens and it's real. His fear and his deep-seated need to fit in with his version of "normal" society are (perhaps unfortunately) also real. How or who defines "normal" in this case is an interesting question.
Front-Ranger:
My theory has always been that the marriage between Alma and Ennis was arranged by their older siblings. Ennis's brother and/or sister would have wanted to get Ennis married off asap as a way to keep him out of trouble and out of their hair. Along with the marriage would have come the requirement to settle down and start a family.
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