Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
mlewisusc:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on November 30, 2006, 07:52:59 pm ---
No offense intended to Mel, but I guess maybe I just have this gut feeling that "proving his masculinity" is too sophisticated a concept to apply to Ennis. I think he would more likely think just in terms of "doing the right thing," "doing the normal thing," "just doing what people just do"--that sort of thing. Of course, what he does might have the same practical effect as "proving his masculinity."
But, yeah, apparently he does spend a lot of time trying to convince himself that he ain't queer.
And I've never quite made up my mind how important is the detail that Ennis apparently preferred to "do it" with Alma the same way he, of necessity ;D , "did it" with Jack.
--- End quote ---
I have my story book at work (in my briefcase, actually) thank you very much . . . and this comment of Jeff's seemed like a good opportunity to ask for y'all's insight into another line of Ennis's from the motel - which is when he says to Jack, right before he relates the story of Earl & Rich, the following: "Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes." This is immediately followed by the comment, "And I don't want a be dead." Just after the Earl & Rich story, when Jack bitches about the time between their seeing one another, Ennis asks Jack this question: "Shit. I been lookin at people on the street. This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"
So what's my point/question? What precisely does Ennis mean by saying he doesn't want to be like them guys? I always read this as meaning he doesn't want to be/appear queer. But then when he asks Jack if this happens to other people (and what is "this" to him? Their sexual relationship? Their LOVE, that we're not convinced he even knows about/is convinced about himself at this point? If he's not really sophisticated, then is it just the plain electric nature of their relationship [Ms. P's descriptor intentional]?), it makes me doubt he was referring to guys who appear queer. By his question to Jack, he's saying he's looking on the street for other folks engaged in a strange relationship, and not seeing it. So his earlier comment means what? That he doesn't want to be childless and unmarried, e.g. a "deviation" from the local social norm - but not rising to the level of "queer"?
I hope I'm making some sense here - and I'm anxious to see what you all think. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill (but isn't that just what we do here for fun?).
An additional note - I am intrigued by FR's notion of the marriage being arranged. Given the age and family circumstances we know about, itmakes a lot of sense to me.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: mlewisusc on November 30, 2006, 11:52:44 pm ---I have my story book at work (in my briefcase, actually) thank you very much . . . and this comment of Jeff's seemed like a good opportunity to ask for y'all's insight into another line of Ennis's from the motel - which is when he says to Jack, right before he relates the story of Earl & Rich, the following: "Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes." This is immediately followed by the comment, "And I don't want a be dead." Just after the Earl & Rich story, when Jack bitches about the time between their seeing one another, Ennis asks Jack this question: "Shit. I been lookin at people on the street. This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"
So what's my point/question? What precisely does Ennis mean by saying he doesn't want to be like them guys? I always read this as meaning he doesn't want to be/appear queer. But then when he asks Jack if this happens to other people (and what is "this" to him? Their sexual relationship? Their LOVE, that we're not convinced he even knows about/is convinced about himself at this point? If he's not really sophisticated, then is it just the plain electric nature of their relationship [Ms. P's descriptor intentional]?), it makes me doubt he was referring to guys who appear queer. By his question to Jack, he's saying he's looking on the street for other folks engaged in a strange relationship, and not seeing it. So his earlier comment means what? That he doesn't want to be childless and unmarried, e.g. a "deviation" from the local social norm - but not rising to the level of "queer"?
--- End quote ---
It's very late here on the East Coast, so I'll only offer my opinion briefly that taking the paragraph as a whole, I've always understood Ennis to mean he doesn't want to be like Earl and Rich, men who are known or perceived to be "queer."
As for the brother and sister arranging or in any way pushing Ennis into marriage with Alma, I'm doubtful. I'm basing my doubts on personal life observation. Even in a small city in Pennsylvania more than a decade after Brokeback Mountain begins, kids in my class in high school--roughly Ennis's age even though he didn't graduate from high school--married soon after graduation. (One young lady had three kids--no twins--by our five-year reunion!) I also have distant cousins who married before they were out of their teens. I guess in the end I'm saying I see no need to speculate that the brother and sister had anything to do with the marriage, that this is just another example of Ennis operating according to rural/small town cultural norms.
Penthesilea:
--- Quote from: mlewisusc on November 30, 2006, 01:23:49 pm ---Sorry to keep jumping in and out today, gang. What do we do with the fact that Story Ennis says to Jack he likes doin it with women? Is that just Ennis's way of arguing to himself that he's not "queer"? Or is it about making babies - e.g., he stopped sleeping with Alma when she wanted him to use protection (see also Ennis's desire to have a son - was this discussed above or in another thread?). But then. like Alma thought, what Ennis liked to do didn't make too many babies. As to the story, I believe that Ennis is actually sleeping with "the waitress" later in the story, and I don't believe Jack when he says he's having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife. I realize, however, that my trust in Story Ennis could be misplaced, as noted by Ms. P herself when she writes that the sparks flew up "with their truths and lies . . . " plural of course.
So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it. Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress? Does he actually enjoy it? If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack? I imagine the answer would come back "both."
--- End quote ---
Jumping back here with you...
Whether Ennis likes to sleep with women: nobody has quoted the whole sentence yet:
I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this.
I have an odd comparison: I like green salad, but hell, it's nothing like pizza. Means I don't have anything against green salad, I don't mind eating it and enjoy it to a certain extent. I'm okay with it. But I'm totally enthusiastic about pizza. I love pizza. If I had to choose, there's no question I'd take the pizza over the salad.
In the end, I'm indifferent about green salad. I could do without it, but like it enough to eat it (because it's healthy).
I think Ennis was indifferent about sleeping with women. Could have done without it, but liked it enough to do it, because a) it's what was expected from him and b) it's not so lonley as his right hand.
I think b) is an important point to Ennis. And I don't talk exclusively about the sexual aspect, but also about the social aspect of having sex with another person: being close to someone, feeling the other person, touching and being touched.
Being connected to another person - even if it is only for bodily aspects and even if it is not the right person - it's better than nothing anyway. Humans are social animals. Ennis was alone most of his life. He was able to stand it because he was less social and more of a loner than many people are. But this doesn't mean he had no social needs at all. Remember that pause, when Alma says "not so lonley like you were raised. You don't want it so lonley, do you?" (when she wants to move to Riverton). You can see her remark has struck a chord in him. Makes me sad every time.
About their truths and lies:
I don't think this sentence is (only) in regard to the afore conversation. I think it's meant more general: what they said to each other and more important what they didn't say. Their pretending. Pretending they weren't lovers.
In regard to the afore conversation Ennis could have been lying about putting the blocks to the waitress, or about her having problems he didn't want. I think he was the one with the problems (and maybe she didn't want them).
mlewisusc:
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on December 01, 2006, 09:54:01 am ---
Jumping back here with you...
Whether Ennis likes to sleep with women: nobody has quoted the whole sentence yet:
I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this.
I have an odd comparison: I like green salad, but hell, it's nothing like pizza. Means I don't have anything against green salad, I don't mind eating it and enjoy it to a certain extent. I'm okay with it. But I'm totally enthusiastic about pizza. I love pizza. If I had to choose, there's no question I'd take the pizza over the salad.
In the end, I'm indifferent about green salad. I could do without it, but like it enough to eat it (because it's healthy).
I think Ennis was indifferent about sleeping with women. Could have done without it, but liked it enough to do it, because a) it's what was expected from him and b) it's not so lonley as his right hand.
I think b) is an important point to Ennis. And I don't talk exclusively about the sexual aspect, but also about the social aspect of having sex with another person: being close to someone, feeling the other person, touching and being touched.
Being connected to another person - even if it is only for bodily aspects and even if it is not the right person - it's better than nothing anyway. Humans are social animals. Ennis was alone most of his life. He was able to stand it because he was less social and more of a loner than many people are. But this doesn't mean he had no social needs at all. Remember that pause, when Alma says "not so lonley like you were raised. You don't want it so lonley, do you?" (when she wants to move to Riverton). You can see her remark has struck a chord in him. Makes me sad every time.
About their truths and lies:
I don't think this sentence is (only) in regard to the afore conversation. I think it's meant more general: what they said to each other and more important what they didn't say. Their pretending. Pretending they weren't lovers.
In regard to the afore conversation Ennis could have been lying about putting the blocks to the waitress, or about her having problems he didn't want. I think he was the one with the problems (and maybe she didn't want them).
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I think the green salad/pizza analogy is a good one, P! In light of the entire sentence, at least. One nit to pick with the end of your argument, however: Alma's lines regarding loneliness were from the film. What can we construct from the story that supports your theory? I can start by saying that after Ennis's parents died, and his siblings raised him, we could speculate that he was constantly looking for interpersonal connections - a hunger for such connections - stronger, maybe, than many people in his region/social circle/culture because of the loss of his parents. He may have hated his siblings and wanted to get away (remember we're talking story here not film - doing right by him was only mentioned in the film) but found once he did that deep inside he didn't want to be alone. Thus the early decision to marry Alma (enhanced no doubt by the cultural imperatives of the location and the generation, as Jeff notes above) If Ennis really has a deep desire to avoid being alone, it may also explain why he made such a quick and deep connection with Jack, especially if he was by nature gay. I also have argued a social angle on his connection with Jack, e.g. their high-time supper by the fire, and Ennis's feelings he'd never had such a good time - an interaction with Jack like he'd never had with Alma. Why not? He knew before he went up the mountain he was going to marry her when he got down. Was it mostly because he was gay and just had a better social time with a man? Was it because Alma was really no fun, or less fun than Jack? Probably a bit of both - he was attracted to him, deep down, and also attracted to Jack socially, and they were both hungry for something that really went beyond sex, a connection neither of them had perhaps ever had in their entire lives . . . of course, much of the story's sadness comes from the tragic irony that when Ennis found the one person who could satisfy all his desires, his cultural imperatives, both in the community and in his own head, instilled by his father (back to the tire-iron wielding Inner Parent) stopped him from embracing the only connection left that could satisfy. That's why I believe, from a story standpoint anyway, that Ennis could never re-connect after losing Jack.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: mlewisusc on December 01, 2006, 10:58:50 am ---I also have argued a social angle on his connection with Jack, e.g. their high-time supper by the fire, and Ennis's feelings he'd never had such a good time - an interaction with Jack like he'd never had with Alma. Why not? He knew before he went up the mountain he was going to marry her when he got down. Was it mostly because he was gay and just had a better social time with a man? Was it because Alma was really no fun, or less fun than Jack? Probably a bit of both - he was attracted to him, deep down, and also attracted to Jack socially, and they were both hungry for something that really went beyond sex, a connection neither of them had perhaps ever had in their entire lives.
--- End quote ---
I think this "social angle" is actually very important to Ennis's falling in love with Jack, both in Story and in Film. Ennis is a lonely, isolated kid. And I think when you're gay, deeply closeted or simply lacking in self-awareness, and isolated either emotionally or "geographically" (Ennis was both), and you meet somebody who may be the first real pal you've had in your life, with whom you're comfortable and probably have more fun than you've ever had with anyone before in your life, it's shockingly easy to fall in love with that person.
Take it from one who's been there. It happened to me in college. :-\
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