Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: dly64 on September 12, 2006, 09:39:36 am ---I don't know that I can agree or disagree with you. I just don't see that it has to be so black and white. Certainly Jack had to make some adjustments. Jack kept certain things from Ennis as a way to protect/ placate him. But I also think that Ennis knew/ understood Jack in a way that nobody else could and vice versa. Ennis knew the truth about Jack’s indiscretions; he just didn’t want to acknowledge them. Jack allowed himself to be vulnerable around Ennis.
--- End quote ---
That's pretty much how I see it, too (yay, Diane, you and I agree on something!). I think the very fact that Jack knew to withhold that information from Ennis, and that Ennis suspected it anyway, shows how well they knew each other. There were some things they didn't talk about directly (especially in the movie) -- how they felt about each other, Jack's frustration, Ennis' fears -- so in that sense they were both holding back. But I think in other areas of their lives, they were pretty comfortable and frank with each other. They talked about their marriages, their kids, their pasts. Their conversation in the motel, both in the story and the movie, shows two men who feel pretty comfortable with each other (even if, for example, Jack isn't telling all about Aguirre).
Front-Ranger:
I'm not arguing with the idea that they were comfortable with each other. I just don't think they were honest with each other or with themselves for that matter.
--- Quote ---Ennis knew the truth about Jack’s indiscretions; he just didn’t want to acknowledge them.
--- End quote ---
What makes U think that, Diane?
dly64:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on September 12, 2006, 11:01:17 am ---What makes U think that, Diane?
--- End quote ---
Have you ever asked a question that you already know the answer? And then the answer you get you know is a lie? That’s how I see Ennis and Jack. I think both the story and the book make it clear that Ennis knew about Jack’s indiscretions, but Ennis chose not to deal with them (until it was thrust upon him). I don’t have the book in front of me … but it says something about what Ennis heard was no surprise. And Ennis’ comment about, “.. all them things that I don’t know ….” indicates that Ennis knows Jack has been with other men, but he doesn’t know the specifics (nor did he want to know the specifics).
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on September 12, 2006, 09:45:55 am ---Yes, Mel, in the New Yorker, it's "You do it with other guys, Jack?"
--- End quote ---
It does make a huge difference. For me, breaking that one sentence down into two, "You do it with other guys? Jack?" indicates that there is a bit of a pause, Jack doesn't answer right away, and Ennis has to prod him to answer. Like, maybe, Jack doesn't want to answer because he's concerned the effect of telling the truth might have on Ennis, and then when Ennis prods him for an answer, he lies.
nakymaton:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 12, 2006, 11:21:57 am ---It does make a huge difference. For me, breaking that one sentence down into two, "You do it with other guys? Jack?" indicates that there is a bit of a pause, Jack doesn't answer right away, and Ennis has to prod him to answer. Like, maybe, Jack doesn't want to answer because he's concerned the effect of telling the truth might have on Ennis, and then when Ennis prods him for an answer, he lies.
--- End quote ---
So do you think the lying is more or less forgiveable with the New Yorker punctuation? "You do it with other guys, Jack?" sound more casual, and without the longer pause, it sounds like Jack didn't hesitate before answering. Is the pause (in the Close Range version) there because Jack is thinking about the effect of what he's going to say on Ennis?
(I'm enough of a fan of brutal honesty in relationships that, although I can understand Jack's lie as a way to protect Ennis, it's still something that I, personally, wouldn't want from a partner. But I'm not Ennis OR Jack.)
Lee - when you talk about Jack changing his behavior to be with Ennis, which moments are you talking about? There are a bunch of moments early on the mountain where it seems like Jack is putting on various sorts of acts -- for instance, there's the moment after the bear attack, when Jack smiles when he hears Ennis coming into camp, and then changes his expression (deliberately, it seems to me) and starts complaining about beans. (And then he softens again right away when he sees that Ennis is hurt. I love that moment.)
But it seems like Jack stops acting at some point. I'm not sure if it's at the end of the "rodeo cowboys are f***-ups" scene, where both guys look so comfortable laughing together, or if it's during TS2. But during the last part of the summer, up until the arrival of the snow, Jack doesn't look very guarded.
Later on, after Ennis's divorce, Jack looks like he's censoring himself more again. But Jack's changed a lot by that point.
Diane -
--- Quote ---Have you ever asked a question that you already know the answer? And then the answer you get you know is a lie? That’s how I see Ennis and Jack. I think both the story and the book make it clear that Ennis knew about Jack’s indiscretions, but Ennis chose not to deal with them (until it was thrust upon him). I don’t have the book in front of me … but it says something about what Ennis heard was no surprise. And Ennis’ comment about, “.. all them things that I don’t know ….” indicates that Ennis knows Jack has been with other men, but he doesn’t know the specifics (nor did he want to know the specifics).
--- End quote ---
YES. I think both the story and the movie imply that, in different ways. ("I know what they've got in Mexico for boys like you" - both the line and the way that it's delivered - suggests that Ennis suspects, at least, that Jack has had other affairs, but until that painful confrontation, both men have avoided talking about them.)
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version