The World Beyond BetterMost > Women Today
Here we go again - after the revolution - women pushed back into the kitchen
milomorris:
--- Quote from: crayonlicious on March 19, 2011, 03:49:57 pm ---If you choose to ignore everything in a post, including the factors mentioned above, with the exception of a single word, "gauntlet" (although technically it should be "gantlet"), and respond accordingly, you can probably expect people to draw conclusions about your viewpoints that you might not have intended to convey.
--- End quote ---
Draw conclusions about what I did not respond to?? Then you're writing your own script for me. "Milo didn't say anything about X, so let's assume the worst." That's unjustified.
The only reason that I didn't say anything about the factors you mention is that I didin't disagree with those, and had nothing to add. I did disagree with the comparison to "hazing," so I focused on that.
--- Quote from: crayonlicious on March 19, 2011, 03:49:57 pm ---You could, for example, have said, "I've never heard of anything that terrible happening in a U.S. workplace. I do know that hazing of new employees is routine, but that involves employees of either gender and is never seriously violent or sexual."
--- End quote ---
So if you knew what I meant, and understood the point, why manufacture some non-existent contradiction?
--- Quote from: crayonlicious on March 19, 2011, 03:49:57 pm ---(By the way, I would be more likely to shrug this off as a simple miscommunication ((even if one tinged with Islamaphobic undertones)) if you hadn't ALSO taken the opportunity to get in a subtle dig implying that women who "want to join" institutions that you continue to define as "male" should man up, so to speak, and submit to the hazing. But actually, why should they? Those organizations may have traditionally hired men exclusively. But institutions can change at any time. And if an organization is now open to employees of either gender, there's no particular reason new employees ((male or female)) should be required to submit to the boys' club rules of the past. Maybe women will say, "hell no" to the hazing, and maybe the organizations will improve as a result.)
--- End quote ---
The short answer is: doing things according to the "boy's club" rules worked just fine, and continues to produce desirable results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. For example, I have said before that there is no need for African-Americans to make American culture "blacker" in order for us to thrive. The same goes for everyone else. There's no need to feminize society in order for women to thrive. Those of us in the professional class of African-Americans, and professional-class blacks internationally, take pride in our ability to "work the system." We consider it an achievement to find a place at the table without changing the menu.
--- Quote from: crayonlicious on March 19, 2011, 03:49:57 pm ---Instead, you pretended she was talking about a much less objectionable custom, and then defended it.
--- End quote ---
I didn't "pretend" anything. She included it in her post, and I found that inclusion to be incorrect.
--- Quote from: crayonlicious on March 19, 2011, 03:49:57 pm ---Elitist presumption? Nope. Just my impression of the tone of your post.
--- End quote ---
"You say 'tom-AY-duh,' I say 'tom-AH-toh."
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: milomorris on March 20, 2011, 12:54:35 am ---Draw conclusions about what I did not respond to?? Then you're writing your own script for me. "Milo didn't say anything about X, so let's assume the worst." That's unjustified.
The only reason that I didn't say anything about the factors you mention is that I didin't disagree with those, and had nothing to add. I did disagree with the comparison to "hazing," so I focused on that.
So if you knew what I meant, and understood the point, why manufacture some non-existent contradiction?
--- End quote ---
Sorry, but this stuff doesn't even make sense.
This is not about "assuming the worst," or assuming anything that's not right there on the screen. Everybody on here can read all of the posts involved and pretty easily judge for themselves.
--- Quote ---The short answer is: doing things according to the "boy's club" rules worked just fine, and continues to produce desirable results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
--- End quote ---
First, let me add my voice to those of others here to say I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never been subjected to hazing at a job. Second, you're telling me that you can look around today's American economy and business climate and say it ain't broke, or at least not in need of some serious tweaking? I don't know about you, but I'd like my stocks and mutual funds to continue making money. Third, even beyond macroeconomics, clearly there are myriad problems in U.S. corporations and workplaces. Fourth, thank god all of the entrepreneurs and innovators throughout the history of business weren't content to shrug and say the existing rules "work just fine" and "if it ain't broke," etc. etc. We'd still be getting around on horses, for one thing. Horses ain't broke, either.
--- Quote --- For example, I have said before that there is no need for African-Americans to make American culture "blacker" in order for us to thrive. The same goes for everyone else.
--- End quote ---
This I can't knowledgeably comment on.
--- Quote --- There's no need to feminize society in order for women to thrive.
--- End quote ---
This is demonstrably incorrect.
--- Quote ---I didn't "pretend" anything. She included it in her post
--- End quote ---
She most certainly did not. Again, this is just what you're pretending. Del said that abuse and sexual assault occur in U.S. organizations. And, in fact, abuse and sexual assault DO occur in U.S. corporations. You chose to ignore both Del's message and the real-life fact.
--- Quote ---You say 'tom-AY-duh,' I say 'tom-AH-toh."
--- End quote ---
So it seems. But in this case, the word reads TOMATO and you are responding to "pineapple."
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: bradINblue on March 19, 2011, 02:57:46 pm ---You are right Del. These 1,400 British students are 'Western Cultured' Muslims. Much more tolerant than their Middle-Eastern brethren, I would assume.
100,000 Muslim's of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran should be polled. Perhaps then we would get a better picture........................
Brad
--- End quote ---
Most college-age guys I know liked to pull pranks on such polls and most college-age guys I know were more than happy to think their dicks should rule the world. How much of that is macho immature bluster and how much of that is religion? I think it would be hard to say.
delalluvia:
Crayon understands my points exactly Milo, so short of reinterating, I too will address this
--- Quote ---The short answer is: doing things according to the "boy's club" rules worked just fine, and continues to produce desirable results. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
First, let me add my voice to those of others here to say I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never been subjected to hazing at a job.
--- End quote ---
Being a woman, I've found that the 'boys club' rules work fine...for boys. Not so much for women. This is why women in the workplace have been working slowly and steadily to change things. Some men were not interested in inviting women into their 'club' and so women started working around them and so now, there are a myriad of ways to develop teamwork and a sense of belonging in a work environment, if one is even necessary rather than just the 'boy's club'. It was broke, Milo, but you had to not be a man to see it.
And no, I've never had to 'compete' with my bosses or co-workers either. I was there to do a job. The only person I was out to impress with my work, was the boss and the clients. I wasn't there to show up my boss or other co-workers.
I know in the theatrical and music world you are continually 'trying out' and competing against someone else for a part in a production. I understand that also happens in sports. This does not carry over to the business world.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on March 20, 2011, 02:27:07 pm ---Being a woman, I've found that the 'boys club' rules work fine...for boys. Not so much for women. This is why women in the workplace have been working slowly and steadily to change things. Some men were not interested in inviting women into their 'club' and so women started working around them and so now, there are a myriad of ways to develop teamwork and a sense of belonging in a work environment, if one is even necessary rather than just the 'boy's club'. It was broke, Milo, but you had to not be a man to see it.
--- End quote ---
Well put, and I'm not just saying this because you agree with me. :)
It's pretty easy to see why Milo is incorrect in stating that "boys' club rules ... continue to produce reliable results" and "there's no need to feminize society in order for women to thrive."
First of all, if "society" includes workplaces, then it's already done been feminized. Half of all jobs in the U.S. are held by women (a milestone reached last year, BTW, through a combination of more women working and men losing jobs to the recession). Meanwhile, more women than men now earn college and graduate degrees, so at least in white-collar jobs the feminization of workplaces will continue.
As it does, it becomes increasingly obvious that the old-boy rules are no longer compatible with modern workplaces. And I'm not just talking about froo-froo like dick-contest hazing rituals or taking clients to strip clubs. I mean the basic structure of workplaces. Their rules, norms and schedules were created for breadwinner men who had full-time housewives at home taking care of all domestic responsibilities. Now that far fewer women are full-time housewives and far more men share domestic responsibilities, those old-school structures are increasingly outdated and inoperable for both men and women.
In short, they're broke.
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