The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
The Terrorist U.S.A.
milomorris:
--- Quote from: oilgun on June 03, 2013, 08:27:39 pm ---Osama bin Laden and the Tsarneyev bothers have (allegedly - I for one, still believe in due process unlike the US (and yes Canadian ) government) targeted civilians, so how is my definition of terrorism problematic?
--- End quote ---
The point I'm making is that Osama bin Laden and the Tsarneyev were civilians, and we targeted them with no complaints from most people. Targeting civilians who are enemies of the US is not terrorism.
--- Quote from: oilgun on June 03, 2013, 08:27:39 pm ---Here's a somewhat unrelated picture that is worth a thousand words, which I'm sure you'll provide, lol! It stops at 2011 btw, so some are missing.
--- End quote ---
I don't need to provide a thousand words to critique yet another one of those meaningless Facebook memes designed to be unanswerable and thus end the conversation. Pictures are not a substitute for meaningful debate.
Besides, the graphic incorrect. Iran did indeed bomb Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war.
oilgun:
--- Quote from: milomorris on June 03, 2013, 11:59:33 pm ---The point I'm making is that Osama bin Laden and the Tsarneyev were civilians, and we targeted them with no complaints from most people. Targeting civilians who are enemies of the US is not terrorism.
I don't need to provide a thousand words to critique yet another one of those meaningless Facebook memes designed to be unanswerable and thus end the conversation. Pictures are not a substitute for meaningful debate.
Besides, the graphic incorrect. Iran did indeed bomb Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war.
--- End quote ---
Sometimes memes are pretty damn effective. Anyway, you are wrong again.
The Iran–Iraq War began when Iraq invaded Iran via simultaneous invasions by air and land on 22 September 1980. It followed a long history of border disputes, and was motivated by fears that the Iranian Revolution in 1979 would inspire insurgency among Iraq's long-suppressed Shia majority as well as Iraq's desire to replace Iran as the dominant Persian Gulf state. Although Iraq hoped to take advantage of Iran's revolutionary chaos and attacked without formal warning, they made only limited progress into Iran and were quickly repelled; Iran regained virtually all lost territory by June 1982. For the next six years, Iran was on the offensive./color]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War
milomorris:
--- Quote from: oilgun on June 04, 2013, 12:57:49 am ---Sometimes memes are pretty damn effective. Anyway, you are wrong again.
The Iran–Iraq War began when Iraq invaded Iran via simultaneous invasions by air and land on 22 September 1980. It followed a long history of border disputes, and was motivated by fears that the Iranian Revolution in 1979 would inspire insurgency among Iraq's long-suppressed Shia majority as well as Iraq's desire to replace Iran as the dominant Persian Gulf state. Although Iraq hoped to take advantage of Iran's revolutionary chaos and attacked without formal warning, they made only limited progress into Iran and were quickly repelled; Iran regained virtually all lost territory by June 1982. For the next six years, Iran was on the offensive./color]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War
--- End quote ---
Effective at stirring emotions, sure. But again, not as a point of debate.
Also you didn't read the article very thoroughly, or you would have seen this:
In preparation for Operation Beit ol-Moqaddas (Jerusalem), the Iranians had launched numerous air raids against Iraq air bases, destroying 47 jets (including Iraq's brand new Mirage F-1 fighter jets from France); this gave the Iranians air superiority over the battlefield while allowing them to monitor Iraqi troop movements.[12]
On 29 April, Iran launched the offensive. 70,000 Revolutionary Guard and Basij members struck on several axes – Bostan, Susangerd, the west bank of the Karun River, and Ahvaz. The Basij launched human wave attacks, which were followed up by the regular army and Revolutionary Guard support along with tanks and helicopters.[12] Under heavy Iranian pressure, the Iraqi forces retreated. By 12 May, Iran had driven out all Iraqi forces from the Susangerd area.[20]:36 The Iranians captured several thousand Iraqi troops and a large number of tanks.[12] Nevertheless, the Iranians took many losses as well, especially among the Basij.
The Iraqis retreated to the Karun River, with only Khorramshahr and a few outlying areas remaining in their possession.[43] Saddam ordered 70,000 troops to be placed around the city of Khorramshahr. The Iraqis created a hastily constructed defence line around the city and outlying areas.[12] To discourage airborne commando landings, the Iraqis also placed metal spikes and destroyed cars in areas likely to be used as troop landing zones. Saddam Hussein even visited Khorramshahr in a dramatic gesture, swearing that the city would never be relinquished.[12] However, Khorramshahr's only resupply point was across the Arvand Roud,[note 2] and the Iranian air force began bombing the supply bridges to the city, while their artillery zeroed in on the besieged garrison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War
oilgun:
--- Quote from: milomorris on June 04, 2013, 06:34:57 am ---Effective at stirring emotions, sure. But again, not as a point of debate.
Also you didn't read the article very thoroughly, or you would have seen this:
In preparation for Operation Beit ol-Moqaddas (Jerusalem), the Iranians had launched numerous air raids against Iraq air bases, destroying 47 jets (including Iraq's brand new Mirage F-1 fighter jets from France); this gave the Iranians air superiority over the battlefield while allowing them to monitor Iraqi troop movements.[12]
On 29 April, Iran launched the offensive. 70,000 Revolutionary Guard and Basij members struck on several axes – Bostan, Susangerd, the west bank of the Karun River, and Ahvaz. The Basij launched human wave attacks, which were followed up by the regular army and Revolutionary Guard support along with tanks and helicopters.[12] Under heavy Iranian pressure, the Iraqi forces retreated. By 12 May, Iran had driven out all Iraqi forces from the Susangerd area.[20]:36 The Iranians captured several thousand Iraqi troops and a large number of tanks.[12] Nevertheless, the Iranians took many losses as well, especially among the Basij.
The Iraqis retreated to the Karun River, with only Khorramshahr and a few outlying areas remaining in their possession.[43] Saddam ordered 70,000 troops to be placed around the city of Khorramshahr. The Iraqis created a hastily constructed defence line around the city and outlying areas.[12] To discourage airborne commando landings, the Iraqis also placed metal spikes and destroyed cars in areas likely to be used as troop landing zones. Saddam Hussein even visited Khorramshahr in a dramatic gesture, swearing that the city would never be relinquished.[12] However, Khorramshahr's only resupply point was across the Arvand Roud,[note 2] and the Iranian air force began bombing the supply bridges to the city, while their artillery zeroed in on the besieged garrison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War
--- End quote ---
Even if that's the case, it's still 1 Iranian invasion to the USA's 48 or so. You are a rogue country.
The US military has a killer drone program and so does the CIA and so does the Special Ops group. You guys are completely out of control. No trials, no due process, it's all blatant assassinations and fuck the so-called collateral damage. If a a "kill list target" is in a building and there are 34 other people there, then 35 people get killed. These are war crimes and it's absolutely disgusting that suppposedly intelligent people are defending these atrocities.
serious crayons:
I'm mostly with you, Gil. Let's say the definition of terrorists is that they target random innocent people, whereas the United States targets people we consider to be guilty -- but then, oops, take down a bunch of unequivocally innocent people along with them. The supposed moral difference centers around who, specifically, is targeted. But to the loved ones of dead innocents, I'm not sure the distinction is all that comforting.
For that matter, I'm not comfortable with killing even the suspected guilty person without benefit of due process. I realize the rules for U.S. citizens are different than those applying to a suspect who is a non-citizen and a presumed enemy of the state. Yet the moral underpinnings still apply: Due process is designed to minimize the risk of mistakes and injustices.
I, for one, was not celebrating when Osama bin Laden was killed. I'm glad he was captured. I understood the rationale for killing him and didn't condemn those who did it. But I wasn't saying hooray, either.
But then, I'm against capital punishment, even of unquestionably guilty heinous criminals. Even, I would hope, if, God forbid, the victims ever included a loved one of mine. I simply think killing is wrong and nobody should ever do it except in clear-cut and urgent cases requiring immediate self-defense.
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