The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
The Atheist Thread, Cont'd.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on November 05, 2006, 06:50:39 am ---that such women haven't really got much in-depth knowledge of the texts of their religion.
--- End quote ---
They don't. I was on a chatsite with some women, one of whom was very very religious and all the women were appalled when I told them the brutal stories of the hebrew bible. They didn't want to believe it. They were very upset with me (for ruining their picture of god, I suppose) and I finally had to tell them that they were not angry with me, they were angry with god and to go read their own bibles.
I gave them chapters and verses. I doubt anyone of them ran to go read them to try to prove me wrong.
The more Jewish woman on the site reasoned - as most of my Born Again Christian friends do - that if god ordered Joshua and Moses to kill little children and babies and those still in the womb, it's because god is omniscient and knew these children - who hadn't yet sinned - would grow up to be sinners.
[shrugs, shaking head]
I said if that was the case, god still didn't come out well, for he himself made these children and the not yet born for no other reason than to be butchered horribly.
--- Quote ---Then again, there is another story (I'm sorry, I can't offer up chapter and verse off the top of my head) where a poor woman is offered up for gangrape by her husband without any intervening rain of fire, in order for him to stave off an equally angry mob. There's a horribly tragic passage of her crawling back after the night is over, lying helpless and maimed to death on her husband's doorstep.
--- End quote ---
She was his concubine who ran off and left him. He caught up with her at night and they had to spend the night at this place where they were accosted by thugs of another Tribe. He threw her out to them and in the morning, when she came crawling to the doorstep, he looked down at her and said 'Hey get up, we have to leave.' Then she died. And 'to avenge' this killing, though he was the primary cause of it, he dismembered her body, showing zero respect for her as a woman, a person and even a human being, and sent a piece to each Tribe, or something like that.
It's a horrific story, showing zero compassion and reads more like an allegory.
--- Quote ---These stories are absolutely horrible on their own as reminders of a misogynistic historical past one would idealistically have hoped humankind had put far behind us by now (though we've not, of cuorse), but they're supposed to be the word of God? This is what the word of God has to tell me about the treatment of women? And they are only a few of a heap of examples.
--- End quote ---
When I confront my Born Again friends with this - from their own bible no less - they instantly say that Christianity has negated the Hebrew Bible teachings - god has changed his stripes - and is now kindler and gentler. But they still support the Ten Commandments. ::)
I know of no Christian on this planet who follows the teachings absolutely. They can't and not be locked up as genocidal murdering abusive maniacs.
Yet the religion's followers like to sit smugly on their high horse and cast their noses down at other religions because theirs is a religion of Peace. ::) ::)
injest:
--- Quote from: Impish on October 27, 2006, 06:48:39 pm ---Here's the excerpt from "The God Delusion" about the Sodom and Gomorrah story, as promised. If you're not in the mood to read the whole thing, read my comment at the end.
'I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof' (Genesis 19: 7-8).
--- End quote ---
something I have never seen addressed about this story:
One of the most widely accepted and observed customs of the ancient world was guest friendship...the concept that if you offer your home to someone you are bound to ensuring their safety. To break this custom was considered the lowest most immoral thing you could do. And it made sense in those days...you had to feel that you could sleep in a persons home and not be murdered in your sleep.
Knowing that maybe (just maybe) the ORIGINAL author of the story was talking about the men of Sodom brought about their destruction by breaking this most sacred covenant by offering harm to someone seeking shelter...there has been SOME eveidence of a city being destroyed by fire in that area..an ancient author looking for some 'reason' would not be so quick to blame sexual behaviours (considering how much more free people were before the Christians came along) I can see an ancient author thinking of the 'guest friendship' as a possible reason in light of the Theseus legend...as well as many other older writing...
my thoughts on the subject...
injest:
--- Quote from: Kelpersmek on October 27, 2006, 08:21:00 pm ---I was talking to my Christian colleague at work.
The problem is, although she will tick "Christian" on any survey you gave her, and is happy to distribute bible-verse cards to people, she doesn't actually know that much about Christianity.
She's rather shakey on genesis, hasn't heard of Lot, or Job (another favourite), or Ezekial asking God to slaughter children for calling him "baldy" (God then complies by sending a couple of bears to rip up those insolent kids).
More than that, she didn't know which religion(s) Christianity was replacing, was unfamiliar with any of the end-times stuff (do you go to heaven right away or stay alseep in Christ until the end of the world?), and where dinosaurs fit into it all.
It wasn't that we were being critical, but every other answer was very much "I dont know, never thought about it". That large percentage of Christians probably has a huge percentage that are very much Christian in that they want to be good to people, pray a bit, and live a "nice" life. Unfortunately they lend strength of numbers to the far right.
--- End quote ---
well that comes from laziness...the willingness to let other people think for you. Most 'Christians' go off to church on Sunday; have their Bible in the back window of their car and NEVER crack it open except when they are in church! And if the preacher doesn't bring it up...well it can't be that important can it? Add to that that most churches are run by men (and have been for centuries) of course anything that doesn't advance the beliefs of the men in charge is not going to be trumpeted!
Some churches say that some of the regulations of the Old Testament were 'cultural' and no longer in effect but I don't see how you can decide that eating shellfish was 'cultural' but other things are not.
People are just so willing to believe anything that tells them what they want to hear. As long as the preacher stands up and says that they are all going to heaven they are fine..why put themselves out to learn anything? They know the most important thing (in their opinion) and nothing can be gained by digging around and looking for trouble..
Impish:
Here is the latest essay by Sam Harris, which appears in the latest Newsweek.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15566391/site/newsweek/
An interesting side note: the Newsweek cover story in the U.S. is "The politics of Jesus." In the European version, the same story is titled "God vs. Science."
nakymaton:
Does the difference in titles suggest that science only has a chance of winning in Europe, but not the US?
Probably true, alas. :(
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