The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
Same-Sex Marriage Issue in MA
Lynne:
--- Quote from: Impish on April 18, 2006, 11:22:43 am ---He said, "Wow, your wife certainly keeps a clean house!" obviously testing me.
...
He took it in stride, just "Oh" and changed the subject, and he remained friendly and cheerful.
I hope he'll repeat our conversation to his wife or co-workers... even if as the butt of a joke. It will at least make people aware that the issue is affecting individual lives.
--- End quote ---
I have some questions. Please accept as intended - sincere interest. As always, the option to answer is entirely your prerogative...no harm/no foul there. What was it about the gas guy's question that made you think it was an obvious test? Was he was trying to express a personal interest, albeit clumsily? Or is there a subtext I'm missing? I dismissed this idea when you mentioned him potentially talking to his wife later. I'm just curious.
Next, were you concerned that the gas guy might not remain 'friendly and cheerful'? Did it take personal courage to answer him the way you did? Concerning 'even as a butt of jokes'...that's particularly brave because it's hard as hell to be the one joked about. I've taken the stance from the beginning about BBM - make all the cowboy queer jokes you want as long as you see it. I firmly believe that anyone capable of self-examination will think about it in great detail later, if they are at all emotionally ready to hear the message. The point is for it to move into the mainstream so it can be discussed seriously.
Bravo to you for getting it in the open where it belongs....to paraphrase Suzanne Brockmann again, 'everyone deserves being able to love openly, in the sun.'
Over in the orientation poll, after long internal debate I signed myself up as bisexual. This may be TMI, especially for this topic, but I was making my own statement. Although I have lived a hetero life almost entirely, I can think of two specific women I found myself attracted to in every way and I have had a few gay experiences. Nothing much came of any of this for a lot of reasons, but none of them had to do with orientation issues. I guess my statement is that I think the 100%-anything label is usually an over-simplification and I wanted my poll answer to reflect that. Of course, after reading posts at Dave Cullen, I realize there is dissension everywhere over these labels.
I also agree that if 'civil unions' offer anything legally different from 'marriage' then it is ultimately an unacceptable solution. The point some posters were making was that by accepting the baby steps in the right direction, you're in a better position for the next battle. My psyche rejects that but I can see that practically/politically there may be some merit considering how slowly change evolves.
I was a little bit suprised/impressed about Jimmy Carter's position in Our Endangered Values : America's Moral Crisis. I'm oversimplifying but it was basically that marriage is the business of the church and civil unions the business of the state and the two should be separate.
Enough for now...thanks to you and Chris for keeping this topic alive.
-Lynne
Impish:
--- Quote from: Lynne on April 19, 2006, 09:23:44 pm --- What was it about the gas guy's question that made you think it was an obvious test? Was he was trying to express a personal interest, albeit clumsily? Or is there a subtext I'm missing?
--- End quote ---
It was that his question came out of the blue. I was describing to him what had happened that made me think my gas meter was acting up, and my fear of a gas leak because I have never been able to smell gas. When I paused, his response was about how my wife kept a clean house.... a total non-sequitor. Also, this is in the context of my home, and there are lots of clues about. For example, DVDs left out with the title "The Man I Love," gay lit on the bookshelves, and a dirty mug in the sink that says "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is." So it's not too hard to figure out what's going on here....
--- Quote ---Next, were you concerned that the gas guy might not remain 'friendly and cheerful'? Did it take personal courage to answer him the way you did? Concerning 'even as a butt of jokes'...that's particularly brave because it's hard as hell to be the one joked about.
--- End quote ---
I must be getting better with practice, as this time I felt no anxiety at all. I just thought to myself "OK, this guy knows I'm gay and wants to see how I'll react." I was also very aware that I was in one of those situations where I had to decide whether to cover or not, and I'm very determined not to cover anymore.
After my response, he changed the subject back to the possibility of a gas leak. When I talked about the possible jokes, all I meant was that I'm a firm believer in the inverse correlation between the number of out gay people and the degree of homophobia, that is, the fewer gay people a straight person knows, the higher the degree of homophobia. Even if I'm the butt of a joke, there are a few more people aware of a gay man who refuses to live with shame.
--- Quote ---Over in the orientation poll, after long internal debate I signed myself up as bisexual. This may be TMI, especially for this topic, but I was making my own statement. Although I have lived a hetero life almost entirely, I can think of two specific women I found myself attracted to in every way and I have had a few gay experiences.
--- End quote ---
I don't know what "TMI" means, but I understand the difficulty people have with labels. It's a bit easier for me, as I'm on one extreme of the Kinsey scale: I've never had sex with a woman and have no desire to. So my being 100% gay makes a label no big deal for me, and it's easy for me to accept that some people are 100% straight. I also believe that there are all shades in-between, and even believe there asexuals in the world, those who have no interest in sex whatsoever. Even my gay brethren have difficulty accepting that one (and I wonder now if the topic was discussed by the Kinseys).
If falling in love with -- and/or having sexual desire for -- another woman is a reality for you, what does it matter what you call yourself? :D
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: Impish on April 20, 2006, 11:11:32 am ---Even if I'm the butt of a joke, there are a few more people aware of a gay man who refuses to live with shame.
--- End quote ---
Fantastic, well said.
--- Quote ---I don't know what "TMI" means, but I understand the difficulty people have with labels. It's a bit easier for me, as I'm on one extreme of the Kinsey scale: I've never had sex with a woman and have no desire to. So my being 100% gay makes a label no big deal for me, and it's easy for me to accept that some people are 100% straight. I also believe that there are all shades in-between, and even believe there asexuals in the world, those who have no interest in sex whatsoever. Even my gay brethren have difficulty accepting that one (and I wonder now if the topic was discussed by the Kinseys).
--- End quote ---
I missed "TMI" the first time I read it too, but for some reason today it's clearly "Too Much Information".
It's interesting about the 100% gay issue, which is a label I am comfotable with since I have only been with men. But seemingly contradictory is the fact that spiritually I am more drawn to women an I form very strong relationships with them, to the point where I find myself questioning or at least admiring the female form. I guess I've always differentiated between love and sex, and I'm comfortable with the idea that love can lead to intimacy, so I've always left that door open. Does that make me 90% gay? Who knows? As I've said before, love is genderless no matter who you sleep with.
Lynne:
Thank you for answering my questions, Impish, and for your response, too, Chris...I love your avatar - it's you, right? Nice to be able to see you. :)
--- Quote from: Impish on April 20, 2006, 11:11:32 am ---I must be getting better with practice, as this time I felt no anxiety at all. I just thought to myself "OK, this guy knows I'm gay and wants to see how I'll react." I was also very aware that I was in one of those situations where I had to decide whether to cover or not, and I'm very determined not to cover anymore.
...
Even if I'm the butt of a joke, there are a few more people aware of a gay man who refuses to live with shame.
--- End quote ---
Good for you, and well-said! I still think it's brave and wonderful of you.
I should probably read more up on the Kinseys' work since I've started this journey - all I have now is anecdotal knowledge and a few years bio/chem to rely on.
--- Quote from: Impish on April 20, 2006, 11:11:32 am ---If falling in love with -- and/or having sexual desire for -- another woman is a reality for you, what does it matter what you call yourself? :D
--- End quote ---
The label doesn't matter to me especially - I don't see it as a big deal to me. The poll just got me thinking, taking stock, etc...it's more, I guess, that I want all those people in my life - those BBM non-believers - who are being so close-minded on this issue to have a wakeup call. If my pointing out that I (and in some cases 'they' too!) have had same-sex attractions/activity highlights the concept that there are shades of grey everywhere for a lot of people, then maybe they will be more likely to open their hearts to the message.
I'm prob'bly tilting at windmills.
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on April 20, 2006, 06:53:09 pm ---It's interesting about the 100% gay issue, which is a label I am comfotable with since I have only been with men. But seemingly contradictory is the fact that spiritually I am more drawn to women an I form very strong relationships with them, to the point where I find myself questioning or at least admiring the female form. I guess I've always differentiated between love and sex, and I'm comfortable with the idea that love can lead to intimacy, so I've always left that door open. Does that make me 90% gay? Who knows? As I've said before, love is genderless no matter who you sleep with.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely, Chris. Interesting about the emotional and spiritual connection with women that you mention. I have mostly experienced the opposite. With only a couple of exceptions, I have historically had a hard time making friends with women. Some of my best relationships are with men - we just communicate better. I always jokingly say that it's because I'm lacking the gene for shopping for shoes :) , but there may be truth there.
I've gotten us off-topic here - some moderator, huh? so back to it:
--- Quote from: Impish on April 13, 2006, 10:37:11 am ---Nobody wins by denying any minority the right to marry the person s/he loves. How ironic that the groups against marriage equality claim they're "defending" marriage, when their laws and amendments will create more bogus marriages, not fewer!
They just can't see that false marriages hurt straight people too.
--- End quote ---
What do other people think about this? Juneaux, I know you're getting ready to post something profound! I just know it! ;)
-Lynne
Lynne:
I just ran across this article about a study (conducted by the The Institute for Marriage and Public Policy, which opposes gay marriage) of the frequency gay & lesbians are getting married in locations where it is a legal option:
"A new study attempts to gauge the percentage of gays and lesbians who have chosen to marry in places where that option is legal, with estimates ranging from as little as 2 percent to more than 16 percent, depending on the location."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060426/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage
Lynne
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