The World Beyond BetterMost > The Culture Tent
Mary Renault Book Discussion
injest:
I am really enjoying our conversation about Mary Renaults books...I think I might split it off into its own thread!
Good night!
I look forward to talking again!
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: Kerry on December 30, 2006, 08:35:14 am ---The Persian Boy is my favourite. I've read it many times over the years.
"The certainty is that he never became uxorious. With Hephaestion he remained in love, at a depth where the physical relationship becomes almost irrelevant; and years later Bagoas was still his recognized eromenos. He had been disinhibited, not reversed, and had now achieved the normal Greek bisexuality."
Kerry
--- End quote ---
I very much enjoyed Mary Renault's books on Alexander. I am curious though. I wonder if her attitude about Hephaestion and Alexander's relationship was not based in her own attitudes about love and sex where 'love is the more pure' and higher than base sex.
Macedonian male sexual relationships did not completely ape the classic Greek ones. Alexander and Hephaestion, so close in age, their relationship constant throughout their lives, flew in the face of the typical erastes/eromenos model of Athens.
Certainly Alexander was influenced by Aristotle's attitudes toward men and sex, but that didn't stop him from having sex with Bagoas and the odd page who caught his eye. In fact, or as far as we know, it didn't stop him at all. Why would we assume that his sexual relationship with Hephaestion 'evolved' into something that didn't include sexual relations? Indeed, there is the story of Hephaestion joining Alexander's generals around Alexander's tent before a big battle and saying the equivalent of 'good day' instead of 'good morning' implying that he had already bade Alexander a 'good morning'. He was caught out and everyone apparently knew it.
Alexander's appetitie for Bagoas/boys didn't fade throughout his life, why should his desire for Hephaestion fade either, especially with love as its basis and the oft commented fact that Hephaestion was one of the best looking men around?
'The Persian Boy' is not one of my favorites. Her book on Alexander's life and 'Fire from Heaven' I like better. I guess because in 'Fire from Heaven' she makes it quite clear that Hephaestion is passionately in love with Alexander, loyal to the death and constantly frustrated by Alexander's attitude toward sex. Alexander is coy and reticent to the point that Hephaestion thinks Alexander has a phobia about it.
Since Renault carried over the same characters into 'The Persian Boy', I find I have a lot of sympathy for how Renault's Hephaestion must have felt to see Alexander - the man he is deeply in love with and always desired - suddenly discover he likes sex a lot, enough to have a 'boy' live in his tent with him - leaving Hephaestion out in the cold.
I imagine the rejection and constant heartbreak of Hephaestion must have felt whenever I read 'The Persian Boy', so it's not one of my favorites.
As for the original post request - gah, I have waaaaaaaaaaay too many lines from books and movies that I love. I'll try to remember a few and post as I do.
injest:
I go back to the phrase that we should judge people by their own ages and not by our own moral standards...
there does not appear (to me) any evidence that casual sexual activity was frowned upon or considered cheating...the concept is a Victorian one to me...
at that time most men had multiple partners throughout their lives...slaves kept for sexual purposes, the famous hetarias of Athens...while I am sure Hephaistion was not OVERJOYED at the presence of a sex slave in Alexanders household it would not have been an unusual arrangement at all in that period. Remember also that most soldiers took women and boys from conquered towns to use as concubines even though most had wives back in Macedon. And in Persia itself harems were the norm..
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: injest on December 30, 2006, 04:23:32 pm ---I go back to the phrase that we should judge people by their own ages and not by our own moral standards...
there does not appear (to me) any evidence that casual sexual activity was frowned upon or considered cheating...the concept is a Victorian one to me...
at that time most men had multiple partners throughout their lives...slaves kept for sexual purposes, the famous hetarias of Athens...while I am sure Hephaistion was not OVERJOYED at the presence of a sex slave in Alexanders household it would not have been an unusual arrangement at all in that period. Remember also that most soldiers took women and boys from conquered towns to use as concubines even though most had wives back in Macedon. And in Persia itself harems were the norm..
--- End quote ---
Not so much as cheating, but the idea that Renault's Hephaestion longed for, hungered for, more physical affection from Alexander and instead Alexander gave it to Bagoas and pages and his wives and concubines. I'm sure Hephaestion had his own pieces around, but it's not the same as getting it from the person you love and it appears from the 'Persian Boy' that Alexander rarely gave in to Hephaestion's physical desires.
Sad for him. Though you are right, Hephaestion was probably not happy at all, but he would not lower himself to feel things like jealousy as if he were in competition with slaves and dancing boys.
Kerry:
--- Quote from: injest on December 30, 2006, 08:14:45 am ---One of my favorite things about The Persian Boy is the tender love that Bagoas expresses for Alexander...here is this slave that has spent the last four years being sold to men and as a concubine but he seems so innocent in the love he develops for Alexander...
"But although in my calling I felt as old as time, my heart, which no one had trained, was young, and suddenly it mastered me"
these are the first books I have ever seen that accept homosexuality completely...it is not presented as an 'issue' just a normal part of life...(and isn't it?)
--- End quote ---
It is my understanding that Bagoas was no mere catamite. He was of noble birth, whose family had somehow fallen from favour (I forget the full story just now). Importantly, it must be remembered that he was Darius' eromenos, and had enjoyed a favoured place, as such, at the Great King's court. Alexander knew this and treated him accordingly, with respect (and love).
Kerry
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