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Mary Renault Book Discussion

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injest:
there is a line in this chapter when Alexias encounters Socrates for the first time....he forms a friendship with this 'old' man...a little lonely boy and just devastated when he left..

he couchs his thoughts with a side step...

"It may be that I thought 'Here is a father who would not think me a disgrace to him (for he is ugly himself) but would love me, and would not want to throw me away on the mountain' I do not know"

My heart breaks for this little boy who feels SO unloved and ugly....how much he carried on his young shoulders!! not only did he have this legacy from his namesake but his handsome father! what HUGE shoes he had to feel no wonder he was over whelmed and withdrawn...

Kerry:

--- Quote from: injest on January 12, 2007, 07:23:15 pm ---Do ya'll believe in this 'second sight' Socrates claims? I do....my father could foretell deaths...on more than three occassions he woke us in the night to tell us a relative was dead. (at the time we had no phone how he knew they were dead and the circumstances of their demise is a mystery)

--- End quote ---

I do believe in second sight and have experienced it personally. Gerard and I had just moved in together way back in the early '70s. Early one morning, just before dawn, I woke with the strangest sensation that there was a third person in our bedroom! And the room was very cold! I went back to sleep, and the first thing I said to Gerard when we woke up was, "Mrs Smuthers died last night" (she had cancer). I'm not sure why I said it. The words sorta came out of my mouth of their own accord. But I believed what I was saying. Gerard asked me how I knew. I responded that she had visited us to say good bye. Shortly afterwards, as we were having breakfast, I saw that Mrs Smuthers' son, Fred (a very close school friend of mine since age 12 - I'd been close to the family for many years), was headed for our front door. Even before I opened the door and saw his tears, I knew why he was there. I have no doubt that Mrs Smuthers had visited me that night, to ask me to look out for Fred.

Kerry:
Here's a pic of Mary Renault:

Kerry:
I promise not to rabbit-on excessively about Socrates (Sokrates in the book). Though I’ve not peeked ahead, I feel we’ll be hearing a lot more from him in future chapters. For that reason, I’ll keep my observations brief and succinct for now. Or, at least, as succinct as I possible can! So just a few quick dot-points before progressing, at last, to chapter 3:

The music teacher is referred to by the pupils as “the Old Man’s Teacher,” in reference to Sokrates, who was “about forty-five.” Must have appeared positively ancient to the young Alexias, whose father would have only been in his twenties.

My heart broke for dear little Alexias when I read that he was “always alone.” I empathised with him and shared a similar childhood (alas, there was no Sokrates in my life!)

I concur with Jess and was absolutely elated when I read that Alexias “pretended not to mind.” Indeed, Jess, the hateful Rhodian had not succeeded in breaking Alexias’ spirit. Hooray!

With reference to Sokrates resembling Silenos, I quote (part) from the Oxford Classical Dictionary (Oxford University Press) under “Satyrs & Sileni” - “The comparison of Socrates with Silenus is based not only on common ugliness but also on common irony and wisdom. Portraits of Socrates and idealised heads of Sileni show great similarity. Silenus is often represented as a good father and the Satyrs as his children.” Once again, MRs research skills are impeccable.

The most strikingly beautiful insight into the personality of Sokrates, for me, came when Alexias recounts, “He turned to answer me; and I felt a kind of shock, as if a bright light had been shone upon my heart; for he did not look as most people do at children, half thinking of something else.” This coming from an abused, isolated child, brought a definite lump to my throat. In Sokrates, Alexias has found an adult who listens to him and is interested in him. Sokrates pays full attention when Alexias is speaking.

Alexias advises that he did not hesitate to “show off” his (little) knowledge with Sokrates, meaning he did not fear ridicule or humiliation from him. He also says he felt “at home” with him. Friendship is built on such foundations.

I was emotionally moved by Sokrates’ response, when Alexias asked why “an old man like him wanted to come to school.” Sokrates replies, “A god came to me lately in a dream and told me to make music. But whether with the hands or in the soul, he did not say; so you can see I ought not to neglect either.” What a delightful insight into the mind-set of the ancient world.

Alexias refers to Sokrates directly as “my friend.” And we know the friendship is reciprocated - “Next day, instead of creeping to school, I ran, so as to be early and talk with him. He was only just in time for the lesson; but he must have noticed me looking out for him, and next day came a little earlier.”

I guess one could paraphrase all this by simply saying that Sokrates was a brilliant teacher and communicator. He brought out the best in young people. Certainly, Alexias advises that the other students, who had initially derided him, soon “began craning to listen.” And another indication of the same - “With him it came naturally to ask a question.” Meaning, he filled one with confidence, so as not to be afraid of being ridiculed. It is also implied here that one could usually be assured an appropriate response. If he didn’t know the answer, Alexias tells us, he would say directly that “he did not know.” So, he’s honest in his responses - not a bull-shitter.

And on top of all this, Sokrates is psychic, too! Alexias says, “Whoever came to Sokrates, no matter by what absurd chance, felt afterwards that he had been directed by a god.” I loved the “force of his nature” quote in this context.

And silly old emotional me was again moved when I read, “I missed him greatly when he left. It may be that I had thought, ‘Here is a father who would not think me a disgrace to him (for he is ugly himself) but would love me, and would not want to throw me away on the mountain’.” Staggeringly beautiful.

Shall we progress to chapter 3?

injest:
no!

not til I bring us back to the issue of names....we hear of 'the Rhodian', Alcibiades, Sokrates, and his father...but the last line in this chapter is

"Not long after this my father married his second wife, Arete, the daughter of Archagoras."

now....here he is giving this woman a very high honor indeed...traditionally that is how he would introduce a man! not only do we get HER name but her father's name. This is no trivial liason...no this is a true Athenian Lady! The ONLY time in the book this far that anyone gets such an honor!

Knowing how he felt toward 'the Rhodian' what does this tell you about Arete??

Kerry?

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