Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

A Ninth Viewing Observation

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serious crayons:

--- Quote from: JakeTwist on August 06, 2006, 04:42:14 am ---Ok, Ennis knew what his father believed.  But just because you know that a parent has this or that strong belief, does it become your strong value?  no, not necessarily.  Kids reject their parents' values all the time.
--- End quote ---

Sure. Kids with conservative parents become liberals, kids with religious parents stop going to church, and vise versa, etc. etc. But what causes them to do that? Usually, they grow up and get exposed to other opinions, and realize different viewpoints are valid.

Say your parents are conservative, and you accept their views even as a teenager. But then you go off to college, where many of the other students are liberal and most of the faculty is liberal and the authors of the assigned books are liberal and maybe you start dating a liberal. Pretty soon, your parents teachings don't seem quite so absolute.

How is Ennis different? Well, for one, it's not simply a matter of Ennis rejecting his parents' beliefs or values. I would argue that growing up feeling sexual attractions that no one else you know seems to share and being told in very graphic terms, by the person you are supposed to respect the most, that those attractions are worthy of fathomless shame and hideous death -- that's not quite the equivalent to having your parents tell you to support President Bush. It hits much closer to home.

For another, until the day he meets the Mr. and Mrs. Twist, Ennis never encounters anybody who seems to disagree with his father. Even Jack, who is not a neutral observer but is equally "guilty," seems to subscribe at least partly to the "I ain't queer, either," homosexuality-is-bad mindset. So Ennis apparently is surrounded by people who agree with his dad.


--- Quote ---So Ennis finds himself doing and enjoying that very thing that his dead father hated so much, having sex with a man!  Good grief, Ennis *does* have pleasure when he is with Jack, he goes to Jack with a smile on his face, he lives for his time with Jack, so why is it so difficult for him to say to himself, "yeah my old man, he was a sumbitch, dead for 20 years now, he sure didn't care for queers, but shee-yt this here is what I like, this man is the one I wanna be with, and be naked with, shee-yt, I guess my old man was wrong!"
--- End quote ---

I would argue that he does just that. Ennis' response to Jack vs. his own upbringing is a glass half full/half empty situation. For pete's sake, he doesn't reject Jack outright! On the contrary, he quits jobs and takes risks and endangers his marriage in order to see him. He just doesn't live with him.


--- Quote ---Anyway, I can't think of a better way to explain this, except to say that many people have experienced horrific tragediies in their lives equal to and greater than what Ennis did, and they do not let themselves be paralyzed with fear the way Ennis does.
--- End quote ---

Also true. But again, what Ennis experienced was not the same as experiencing a one-time trauma. It wasn't a matter of just seeing the body of a murdered man, horrific as that would be. Ennis edured an ongoing, intensely personal, isolating, secret experience that stretched over a number of years during a particularly sensitive time in his life. People can even overcome terrible childhoods. But it's a long struggle, and it usually involves talking to other people about it, and getting therapy, or at least having others reassuring them that the abuse was wrong ... or something. It's rarely -- if ever -- as easy as "move on, already."

Could Ennis overcome his past anyway? Well, he partly did, early in the movie and gradually continuing throughout! And I would say that by the end of the movie he's made considerable progress.


--- Quote ---The reason I am saying it has nothing to do with Ennis' present surroundings, is, Earl's murder is the only queer murder that we are told about, as being something that Ennis has heard about from around Wyoming.  Hell, what are the odds anyway, of it happening again?  Are the odds so stong that it makes sense to live like Ennis did, not liive the one life you have to the fullest?
--- End quote ---

Again, I don't think it was a simple rational calculation of risk, of Ennis thinking, Uh-oh, this kind of thing got Earl killed, so guess I'd better not take the chance. It went much, much deeper than that.

2robots4u:
My first comments are directed to the last 2 or 3 postings.  I tend to agree with Jane's views on the subject of Ennis' constant concern about the murder of Earl, but what I'm really concerned about is the comment "He was 9.  He was gay".  I don't see anywhere a reference to Ennis being gay..at any time in his life prior to meeting Jack.  A 9 year old has no inkling of what "gay" is; in fact many young boys 9-12 years old fool around with their only sex because of curiosity and it doesn't imprint them for life. In all probability, that scene Ennis witnessed stayed with him for a while and, as with all young kids, just as quickly departed, only to be recalled again on BBM. 

Hating Ennis?  I can't say that I hate him, but I certainly pity him.  The thing that makes him happiest is being with Jack, and Jack mades himself available to Ennis countless number of times, and all Ennis thinks of is "how will this personally affect me?"  Serious character flaw.

Now for the comments re: who asks whom to dance, going way back to postings as early as nbr 24:  soas to keep typing at a minimun, here are the abbreviations...J-Jack, R-Randall, La-Lashawn, Lu-Lureen, VC-view change

1.  Scene open with dancing couples, camera panning and comes to rest on table
2.  La is talking; J and L both looking directly at her
3.  J turns head back toward La, then immediately looks directly at R
4.  VC shows R looking at J, slight smile comes to his lips
5.  VC to J with cigarette in mouth, still looking at R
6.  VC back to R who is looking at La (still talking)
7.  We then hear Lu make her Kappa Phi comment. 
8.  Next La comments to Lu about having to dance with themselves, and "husbands ain't the least bit (looks toward R) interested in dancing.  Ain't got a smidgen of rhythm (looks back to Lu) between 'em."
9.  Lu comments about husbands never wanting to dance with their wives.
10.  J removes cig from mouth, dropping ashes, looks down and begins to brush pants
11.  Lu taps J shoulder and says "Why do you think that is?"
12.  J looks at Lu then back to his lap and comments about never giving it any thought
13.  J head comes up turning to his left, eyes going directly left of where R is sitting, then back to R (very briefly), then back to La
14.  Whilke looking directly into a eyes, he asks her to dance
15.  R is looking in the direction of J because J was the last one speaking, then turns to La, who is looking at J and says "Yes. Thank You"
16.  La is still looking at J when we hear him say to R "Do you mind?"
17.  VC R is still looking at La, then down to the table, then at J when when we hear "do you mind?"
18.  VC close up of "bug-eyed" J who turn head to his left and puts out cig, and stands
19.  During J standing VC directly toward R who is taking a drink and he watches La and J leave table
20.  VC showing Lu disguest
21.  VC dancing couples.  Scene ends...

The next time we see J and R together is outside on the bench, when R makes his proposition to J.  J seems very uncomfortable; eyes blinking several times, but no dialogue because the girls appear.

It is very clear to me that J and R were "eye-flirting" at the table, but J invitation to dance is directed entirely toward La, and eventhough J glances directly at R just a split-second before the invite, I do not believe there is any intention, jokingly or not, that he was going after R.

As to R being responsible for J death, there is a whole world of speculation:  did he have an affair with R (or La, as he tells Ennis); did Jimbo blab to someone (we do see him telling his friends something in the bar, and pointing at J, but just was said he don't know); did J, at some time, put the make on the wrong man who then took revenge by killing J.  There are just too many "what-ifs".  That's why the scene of J beating is left ambiguous...so that the viewer can form his own opinion.  I choose to believe it is a thought in Ennis's mind, his speculation that the one thing that bothered him about living with J was the one thing that actually kept them apart and, ultimately, responsibility for J death.   

Brown Eyes:
I think Ennis knew he was gay when he was 9.  Most gay people I know (including myself) knew they were interested in their own gender going way, way back into childhood.  I actually feel very strongly about the idea that there are gay kids and that their view of the world is very different (and hardly ever considered)... that it's completely unfair to believe that all kids are bound to grow up straight.  At 9, I'm sure Ennis would not have come up with an articulate statment that he was "gay", "queer" or whatever vocabulary would have been familiar to him.  But, I'm sure he knew he liked boys.  I think one of the reasons (aside from the obvious) that this memory is so charged for Ennis is that he was probably, secretly sort of looking at Earl and Rich as role models when he was a kid.  He was probably fascinated by the two guys who ranched up together (and not for the same reasons as his homophobic family or town).  I think it's particularly important to note that even in his telling of the story to Jack he calls them "tough old birds."  I think this is meant to be a compliment by Ennis and shows that even as a kid he recognized how hard things were for them, how unfair and how much he secretly admired their "tough-ness" in the face of all this.  I do think that the psychological torture of a gay kid is one of the subtexts or even one of the major tragedies of the movie.
 :-\ :'(

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: [email protected] on August 06, 2006, 09:37:04 pm --- A 9 year old has no inkling of what "gay" is
--- End quote ---

Amanda stated it much more eloquently than I can, but I was just about to say that by age 9 you might not think of yourself in terms of sexual orientation, but by that age many people already have felt attraction to one gender or the other. I know I had. (Just yesterday, for another example, my 11-year-old son got a LONG DISTANCE call from a 10-year-old girl confessing she had a crush on him. My other son, at 9, insisted on calling a girl (not long distance) whom he had a crush on.) IMO, attraction is not the same as fooling around out of curiosity, and neither one "imprints you for life" in terms of sexual orientation. I think that's already imprinted.

The scene Ennis witnessed quickly departed, only to be recalled on BBM? I don't know about you, but being forced by a parent to view the body of a person who'd been tortured to death lying in a ditch would not quickly depart from my mind under any circumstances. Let alone if I thought my dad might have done the job. And ESPECIALLY if I thought the same fate might befall me if I made a wrong move.


--- Quote --- all Ennis thinks of is "how will this personally affect me?" 
--- End quote ---

I don't agree this is all Ennis thinks of.

Brown Eyes:
Thanks Katherine.
 :)


Well, I've been wondering about something in terms of the viewpoint of people who strongly dislike Ennis (and I realize there are lots of people and that there are compelling arguments for why Ennis is dislike-able at moments)...  I try my hardest to be egalitarian.  I think that's part of the point of the movie/ story... the two cowboys have to be taken together, they compliment each other and "complete" each other (I know I'm risking sounding sappy here..).  But, I will admit that I do have a slight Jack affinity.  What I don't understand is how people who whole-heartedly love Jack can so completely dislike Ennis.  Jack's love for Ennis defined him (Jack).  So what did Jack find in Ennis to love so deeply to risk his life... to keep coming back for 20 years, etc?  I think Jack is genuinely sweet and who knows if he's a good judge of character... but he found something hugely special about Ennis.  Maybe this is a new way to think about Ennis.  Of course, this question can be reversed for those of you who love Ennis and dislike Jack.
 ???

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