Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
A Ninth Viewing Observation
jpwagoneer1964:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on August 12, 2006, 11:44:58 am ---
I'm not sure that Ennis longed for the sweet life just as much as Jack, I did not see any evidence that he longed for it. On the contrary, by not doing whatever it takes to be able to meet up with Jack in August, that tells me that his longing to be with Jack is not as strong as his, uhmm, fear? Or if he did long for it he sure had a funny way of showing it, meeting up less instead of more.
--- End quote ---
That sad fact is that WY was not and may still not be a safe place to be out. Ennis fears were not without reason. He did long for the sweet life with Jasck but he knew it wasnt possable.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on August 12, 2006, 11:44:58 am ---I'm not sure that Ennis longed for the sweet life just as much as Jack, I did not see any evidence that he longed for it. On the contrary, by not doing whatever it takes to be able to meet up with Jack in August, that tells me that his longing to be with Jack is not as strong as his, uhmm, fear?
--- End quote ---
I think it's possible he gets more paranoid as he goes along. I have always taken his work excuse pretty much at face value: he had to work, and didn't think he could get out of it, and he's a stickler for following rules and being responsible. But maybe the strain is making him pull away ... I don't know. To be honest, I've never totally understood that.
But as far as evidence for Ennis longing for the sweet life, I'll point again to his happiness on the mountain. Alone in the middle of nowhere, he seems to have no problem at all loving a man. Look at the way he is in the happy tussle. He's even the one who starts it! And look at how devastated he is when he hears their summer is ending prematurely.
So no, Ennis doesn't long for the sweet life under the circumstances that Jack suggests it -- which would mean, essentially, coming out. But to the extent he allows himself to fantasize about the impossible (and he may not do this often, because it would make his self-discipline more difficult), he would love them to be together, in an ideal world ("See you tomorrow"!).
--- Quote ---Again I would like to reiterate the following quote from the mouth of Ennis, to me this is Ennis knowing that he is queer, that is what the "know"ing is all about here, IMO:
* "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious...like he knows. and then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?"
I thought we all agreed that Ennis did not acknowlege that he loved a man, that was part of the problem?! That he did not realize that it was love until it was too late to do anything about it?!!
.... and didn't you guys come down all over me about the Earl situation, that it was that horrible incident that put fear in Ennis, that was responsible for Ennis' emotional paralysis for the rest of the time we know him? WTF? Am I crazy? ;)
--- End quote ---
Jane, I don't quite follow you here. Are you saying Ennis did acknowledge he's "queer" but didn't acknowledge he loved a man, or what?
Anyway, I do think he acknowledged both, however reluctantly. He knew he loved a man. He knew he was gay. I also think he knew what he felt for Jack was something like love, even if he didn't give it that name. What happened too late was him realizing he shouldn't have put his fears ahead of his love.
As far as his emotional paralysis over his childhood (again, I stress that it wasn't only the Earl incident that messed him up -- that was the tip of the iceberg, the apotheosis of living with a terrifying father), that's the reason he was so fearful.
--- Quote --- I would like to suggest that this is cicular logic, IMO. One cannot compare bad outcomes to the outcome of death, everyone dies sooner or later, to me this does not form part of the equation.
--- End quote ---
I don't quite get you here, either. My point was simply that Ennis would not be happy without Jack. We see at the end that he is not. So I don't think Jack would be doing him any favors by quitting him.
welliwont:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 12, 2006, 12:09:36 pm ---I think it's possible he gets more paranoid as he goes along. I have always taken his work excuse pretty much at face value: he had to work, and didn't think he could get out of it, and he's a stickler for following rules and being responsible. But maybe the strain is making him pull away ... I don't know. To be honest, I've never totally understood that.
But as far as evidence for Ennis longing for the sweet life, I'll point again to his happiness on the mountain. Alone in the middle of nowhere, he seems to have no problem at all loving a man. Look at the way he is in the happy tussle. He's even the one who starts it! And look at how devastated he is when he hears their summer is ending prematurely.
So no, Ennis doesn't long for the sweet life under the circumstances that Jack suggests it -- which would mean, essentially, coming out. But to the extent he allows himself to fantasize about the impossible (and he may not do this often, because it would make his self-discipline more difficult), he would love them to be together, in an ideal world ("See you tomorrow"!).
Jane, I don't quite follow you here. Are you saying Ennis did acknowledge he's "queer" but didn't acknowledge he loved a man, or what?
Anyway, I do think he acknowledged both, however reluctantly. He knew he loved a man. He knew he was gay. I also think he knew what he felt for Jack was something like love, even if he didn't give it that name. What happened too late was him realizing he shouldn't have put his fears ahead of his love.
As far as his emotional paralysis over his childhood (again, I stress that it wasn't only the Earl incident that messed him up -- that was the tip of the iceberg, the apotheosis of living with a terrifying father), that's the reason he was so fearful.
I don't quite get you here, either. My point was simply that Ennis would not be happy without Jack. We see at the end that he is not. So I don't think Jack would be doing him any favors by quitting him.
--- End quote ---
hahaha Katherine, I think I am gonna have to give up this ride! when you say something one way I can (what's another word for refute?), but then you say it a different way and I cannot disagree with you the second time... ??? ???
Why is it that I never get any responses like:
"Wow Jane, I agree completely with ever'thing you just wrote!"
"You are hunnerd percent right"
"exactly what I was gonna say, you took the words right off my computer screen! Damn you JT!"
??? ;D ;D
PS: I still stand by ever word I wrote... not sure why you guys can't see this logic like I do. ???
Penthesilea:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 12, 2006, 12:09:36 pm ---
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on August 12, 2006, 11:44:58 am ---I'm not sure that Ennis longed for the sweet life just as much as Jack, I did not see any evidence that he longed for it. On the contrary, by not doing whatever it takes to be able to meet up with Jack in August, that tells me that his longing to be with Jack is not as strong as his, uhmm, fear?
--- End quote ---
I think it's possible he gets more paranoid as he goes along. I have always taken his work excuse pretty much at face value: he had to work, and didn't think he could get out of it, and he's a stickler for following rules and being responsible. But maybe the strain is making him pull away ... I don't know. To be honest, I've never totally understood that.
--- End quote ---
I think the story gives us more evidence on this question, talking specifically about the cancelled trip in August:
"Let me tell you, I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off. It was tough enough gettin this time - some a them late heifers is still calvin. You don't leave then. You don't. Stoutamire is a hell-raiser and he raised hell about me takin the week. I don't blame him. He probably ain't got a night's sleep since I left. The trade-off was August." (Underlining for emphasis mine)
As Katherine said: Ennis is a stickler to rules. And he is responsable, reliable and loyal. But he lets Stoutamire down in May for their trip. This is not Ennis-like, but he does it anyway, to be able to see Jack. He can't do it again any time soon, and a four months time span is soon.
And when Ennis says he can't quit this one (this job), I just believe him. As an explanation, why he can't quit this one, we have child support and Ennis getting older (and therefore it's getting harder to find a new job). I don't think this are elusions. It's a fact.
Plus, on his postcard to Jack (the "deceased" one) he writes, that November still looks like the next possibility to see each other. So Ennis must have tried once more to find a possibility for an earlier meeting.
Over the years they saw each other two or three times at average. So for this very year, it would be two times. Their normal schedule. But the cancellation of the August trip is not the reason for their argument anyway. It is only the last straw.
--- Quote ---What happened too late was him realizing he shouldn't have put his fears ahead of his love.
--- End quote ---
*deep sigh* :'(
--- Quote ---Um, and that's a good thing ... right?
--- End quote ---
You bet. :)
welliwont:
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on August 12, 2006, 01:35:03 pm ---
hahaha Katherine, I think I am gonna have to give up this ride! when you say something one way I can (what's another word for refute?), but then you say it a different way and I cannot disagree with you the second time... ??? ???
--- End quote ---
Sorry, you asked questions there, so I guess I should answer them,
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 12, 2006, 12:09:36 pm ---
Jane, I don't quite follow you here. Are you saying Ennis did acknowledge he's "queer" but didn't acknowledge he loved a man, or what?
--- End quote ---
yes, and yes.
A) I am saying that the movie says (words coming from Ennis' mouth) that Ennis acknowleges that he is queer. BTW, this scene comes before the 1978 Benefit Dance in Childress, so that is how long ago Ennis acknowledged that he *knows* that he is queer. I believe Ennis knows he is queer then, I believe the movie shows that. I am taking all of it literally, I don't know how this can be refuted.
B) I also tend to believe that Ennis did not acknowledge or even realize that it was love until it was too late. The movie kind of implies that he first gets an inkling of it in the Greyhound bus station, that is when the idea first entered his mind. I believe he came to know it when he found the shirts. (I think this anyway, although I could probably be swayed into thinking that he thought of it sooner.)
--- Quote from: latjoreme on August 12, 2006, 12:09:36 pm ---I don't quite get you here, either. My point was simply that Ennis would not be happy without Jack. We see at the end that he is not. So I don't think Jack would be doing him any favors by quitting him.
--- End quote ---
Maybe what has happened is that I have taken your one or two sentences very literally and then I have argued them, and maybe you had a slightly different meaning than what I interpreted.
One way to describe me is "VERY literral"
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