Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
A Ninth Viewing Observation
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on May 17, 2006, 04:12:15 am ---When they do talk about relationships, they are always "translated" into straight ones: Jack substitutes "ranch foreman's wife" for "ranch foreman". Even Alma, knowing what she knows, asks why Ennis doesn't get remarried. They just have no context for saying these things. Jack simply can't speak the truth because he's trying to broach the subject of their relationship for the very first time. Jack cannot refer to Randall, but he still needs to tell Ennis how he feels. In this way, Jack is just as homophobic as Ennis (but for different reasons).
--- End quote ---
Well, Chris, this may come as a shock, but I agree! ;) I can't think of any other reason for Jack to tell Ennis anything at all except that he wants to be semi-honest and semi-open with Ennis, wants to assuage some of his own guilt, maybe even wants to prepare Ennis for the possibility that he will leave Ennis for Randall. Yet he switches genders because he knows that Ennis would be really angry if he knew the whole truth -- whether out of homophobia or jealousy or both (back to THAT old argument!). I guess that explains Jack disingenuously asking Ennis why he hasn't gotten married -- he knows why, but pretends he doesn't, perhaps fishing for info while keeping the obvious unstated in keeping with Ennis' sensitivities.
And good point about Alma doing the same for different reasons. I suspect she's totally trying to bait Ennis. There was a huge debate a while back about why Alma gives that mean Jack Nasty speech, and people suggested she is insulted by his "once burned" remark. That's possible, but I think she may have wanted to bring it up already, which is why she asks about marriage in the first place. I think she pretty much knows why he doesn't remarry.
Back to Jack. It's comforting but also slightly ominous, in regard to the question of whether Jack would have left Ennis for Randall, to know that right on the heels of the ranch forman's wife confession (so, with his relationship with Randall fresh in his mind), he tells Ennis how much he misses him. It's both an "I want to be with you more than anything in the world" and a "But it's so hard on me that I may have to do something drastic and find someone else."
As for Randall, I don't feel like I have enough information to blame his indiscretion for Jack's death. It's certainly possible, but as far as we could tell at the dance Randall is pretty subtle and discrete. If we're supposed to think he's at fault, maybe they would have shown him talking too loudly or being too obvious. I don't have any idea how anyone would have found out about Jack at all, though, so I can't rule that out.
--- Quote --- I guess a part of me wants you to also say that the last half an hour never happened. Scratch below the surface of stability and there's still a traumatised Brokie here desperate for someone to tell me: s'alright.
--- End quote ---
I hear ya. Sometimes I'd like to lop off the last half of the movie. And I think we're all desperate for the s'alright we will never hear ... :'(
starboardlight:
--- Quote from: atz75 on May 16, 2006, 10:42:32 am ---I think the Randall situation just has to be left up to individual interpretation. People will always read this scene in different ways. I'm personally still convinced that Jack is asking Randall to dance (in a non-serious way) but that he's assuming that everyone else at the table will presume that he's asking LaShawn. He knows they will assume this, so he takes this opportunity to be playful and also a bit spiteful of Lureen.
--- End quote ---
interestingly enough, in another thread started by Ray, he ponders that Lureen knows the answer exactly when she asks "Why is it, husbands don't never wanna dance with their wives?" So his "asking" Randall might just be Jack playing chicken with her. "Don't go there, cause I will" as it were.
silkncense:
Ya gotta love Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossana!
--- Quote ---I think it's important that he locks eyes with Randall during the conversation at the table, then during the "want to dance?" moment
--- End quote ---
When we watch this film, we still see it differently. I still see Jack speaking & looking directly to LaShawn regarding the 'wanna dance' sequence. Based on his facial expression, I thought Randall made Jack uncomfortable when they first locked eyes & then again outside while on the bench. As far as the film shows, Jack had not had an otside relationship so close to home...Ennis was never invited to 'come to Texas' as Lureen pointed out.
I felt Jack was hesitant to have a relationship with another man in Childress. He knew Randall was coming on to him, but he certainly was not encouraging in my view at that time. It seems clear that at some point after the dance, Jack & Randall did become involved but I did not see Jack giving him any signal the day of that dance.
And ultimately, I don't think Randall, the individual, was the ultimate demise of Jack, but the 'word' that got around Childress.
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: silkncense on May 17, 2006, 10:17:49 pm ---Ya gotta love Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossana!
--- End quote ---
Definitely - Collectively, the creators of perfection!
--- Quote ---And ultimately, I don't think Randall, the individual, was the ultimate demise of Jack, but the 'word' that got around Childress.
--- End quote ---
This is probably fair enough silkncense. We know that Jimbo got a vibe from Jack and that was enough for him to know what Jack was about. We also know that just about everyone (except Ennis of course) thought little of Jack: "the pissant that tries to ride bulls" and the like. So it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to assume that others had this impression, and this results in talk becoming 'word getting around'. I think I picked on Randall for the lack of alternatives, but 'word getting around' works for me too and this lets Randall off the hook - for the time being anyway. ;)
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on May 17, 2006, 04:12:15 am ---The short-story and notes in the screenplay give me a few more clues as to why Jack lies. In the argument scene (in the screenplay) it says that Jack was thinking "here it comes" when Ennis starts up about Mexico. There's a real sense of what they were doing both physically and emotionally was very different to how they talked to each other, and most importantly how they justified it to themselves. I'm not trying to allude towards denial here, the emphasis is on the unspoken-ness of the relationship.
When they do talk about relationships, they are always "translated" into straight ones: Jack substitutes "ranch foreman's wife" for "ranch foreman". Even Alma, knowing what she knows, asks why Ennis doesn't get remarried. They just have no context for saying these things. Jack simply can't speak the truth because he's trying to broach the subject of their relationship for the very first time. Jack cannot refer to Randall, but he still needs to tell Ennis how he feels. In this way, Jack is just as homophobic as Ennis (but for different reasons).
--- End quote ---
Hi Chris,
I quite like these observations. I love the fact that you pointed out that there's this huge rift between what Jack and Ennis feel and do vs. what they say. It reminds me of that thing Ang Lee says in one of the special features, about their relationship being "private and precious and they cannot articulate..." I think that's right, they just don't have the words to express themselves. I suppose this is a permutation of the old "love that dare not speak its name" idea. In this case it's the lovers themselves who can't "speak" about it. It reminds me of Ennis calling their attraction "this thing". And he can only call Jack's affairs with other men "those things." I'm sure this is a huge part of the drama in the argument scene (both in the book and film). 20 years of pent-up frustration finally comes out in the form of speech... it really probably could have become even more dramatic than it did.
Now that I think about it though, there are moments when they try to talk about their feelings. Most notably in the motel... in the book Jack says something like "we just have to talk about this..." (I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm paraphrasing). And, clearly in the film Jack is trying to prod Ennis to say more about how he feels. And, after Ennis's comment in the camping trip that he's "sending up a prayer of thanks", Jack says "for what?" He's probably hoping that Ennis will say something real about their situation, but he settles for the cute teasing.
All very interesting.
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