The World Beyond BetterMost > Anything Goes
Didn't any boy cry? This girl certainly did...
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on March 10, 2007, 01:17:52 am ---Yes, but innocents who get executed are also members of society. How do their numbers compare to those of murder victims of people who have already been sentenced to life sentences for murder but have somehow gotten out? I don't know. If they're anywhere even remotely close, I'd still err on the side of avoiding state-sanctioned murder. And maybe tighten the laws concerning life sentences.
--- End quote ---
Actually I was thinking on how they compare to the people who are victimized by the guilty who get out of prison and commit more crimes. I think the ripple effect is greater with them than with the innocent soul mistakenly executed. Again, who suffers the most?
--- Quote ---Prisons may not solve crime, but they're the best we can do to get criminals off the street without actually killing them. I don't know ... what do France and England and Sweden and Germany and Japan and all those other capital-punishment-free industrialized countries do to keep their murder rate lower than ours? Whatever it is, let's do that.
--- End quote ---
Those countries are much smaller than the U.S. and can afford to do things that we cannot. I remember the discussion right after 9/11 how Israel had great security at their airports, guards and search teams and why couldn't the US do that? The answer was scale. The US had over 100 times the air traffic of Israel. It wasn't cost-effective. I have a feeling that whatever those countries are doing, we cannot afford to do the same.
--- Quote ---What he did was horrible. But I still don't think he's proof of the need for capital punishment.
--- End quote ---
Going to have to agree to disagree about that. I think McDuff was the poster boy for the need for capital punishment. One of his victims, Colleen Reed, was kidnapped from a car wash that I passed every day on my way to school. I remember feeling like I had dodged a bullet.
--- Quote ---Whole new subject, but yeah, it often is state-sanctioned murder. In some circumstances it may be warranted, but I don't know if the civilians getting blown up would necessarily agree with Dick Cheney on which particular circumstances warrant their deaths. The question of what circumstances DO warrant it is endlessly debatable.
--- End quote ---
Yes different subject, but I brought it up simply to say that 'state sanctioned murder' can also be applied and is applied by some people to the waging of war. Those poor blown up civilians wouldn't necessarily agree with ANYone who said their deaths were for the good of ANY war effort. One reason war is hell. Only the end result matters.
--- Quote ---But there are a lot of people filling our prisons who wouldn't even be criminals if our drug laws weren't so harsh. These aren't all addicts committing crimes like robbery in order to finance their habit. They're people whose drug use or sale or possession, in and of itself, gets them prison sentences. Change the drug laws, and suddenly we have lots more prison room.
--- End quote ---
I think if someone sells drugs to kids, then they deserve prison. If someone is in possession of drugs, depending upon the drug and if they happened to be a surgeon or professional driver or pilot, they are the people who keep the demand for drugs up and keep the cycle of addiction and crime going, if not prison, then a hefty fine might be the answer there.
--- Quote ---True, unfair doesn't even begin to describe it. Even if you agree with capital punishment in principle, when the difference between being executed and not being executed is a matter of having money -- earned, inherited, whatever -- rather than being guilty, IMO the system is evil. It may not be rich people's fault that poor people are poor (though that's debatable, too), but it certainly is any citizen's fault if poor people get unfair treatment in our justice system.
--- End quote ---
Hold on. I didn't mean to imply that wealthy people were acquitted while the poor got executed, what I meant was that the poor get executed while the wealthy - still found guilty - manage to get jail time instead for the same crimes.
louisev:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on March 10, 2007, 02:29:06 am ---Actually I was thinking on how they compare to the people who are victimized by the guilty who get out of prison and commit more crimes. I think the ripple effect is greater with them than with the innocent soul mistakenly executed. Again, who suffers the most?
--- End quote ---
There are those who maintain that all killing is murder, and that harm done to any is harm done to all. And that includes punishment.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on March 10, 2007, 02:29:06 am ---Actually I was thinking on how they compare to the people who are victimized by the guilty who get out of prison and commit more crimes. I think the ripple effect is greater with them than with the innocent soul mistakenly executed. Again, who suffers the most?
--- End quote ---
I guess anyone who dies suffers, whether they are a victim of a murderer or a victim of a mistake by the justice system. If you're saying which group is bigger, I'm willing to grant that it's possible there are more victims of guilty people who get out of prison than there are innocents executed. So the solution would be, tighten the laws regarding life sentences and parole to let fewer potential murderers back on the street. And meanwhile, abolish capital punishment, so the government won't be in the business of committing murder.
--- Quote ---Those countries are much smaller than the U.S. and can afford to do things that we cannot. I remember the discussion right after 9/11 how Israel had great security at their airports, guards and search teams and why couldn't the US do that? The answer was scale. The US had over 100 times the air traffic of Israel. It wasn't cost-effective. I have a feeling that whatever those countries are doing, we cannot afford to do the same.
--- End quote ---
Well, since apparently neither of us knows what those countries are doing, it's impossible to judge the cost-effectiveness or affordability. One thing I suspect those countries may be doing, though, is not maintaining the culture of violence that the U.S. has -- in many ways, but a big one being capital punishment.
--- Quote ---Going to have to agree to disagree about that. I think McDuff was the poster boy for the need for capital punishment. One of his victims, Colleen Reed, was kidnapped from a car wash that I passed every day on my way to school. I remember feeling like I had dodged a bullet.
--- End quote ---
It's a genuinely horrifying story, and I can see how this would have had a profound effect on you and your opinions.
--- Quote ---Yes different subject, but I brought it up simply to say that 'state sanctioned murder' can also be applied and is applied by some people to the waging of war. Those poor blown up civilians wouldn't necessarily agree with ANYone who said their deaths were for the good of ANY war effort. One reason war is hell. Only the end result matters.
--- End quote ---
Agreed on all counts. War is state-sanctioned murder. And the blown up civilians probably wouldn't agree that their deaths were necessary. And the end result does matter very much. A moral government would be extremely careful and thoughtful and cautious about deciding to wage war, and do so only for a very, very good reason.
--- Quote ---I think if someone sells drugs to kids, then they deserve prison. If someone is in possession of drugs, depending upon the drug and if they happened to be a surgeon or professional driver or pilot, they are the people who keep the demand for drugs up and keep the cycle of addiction and crime going, if not prison, then a hefty fine might be the answer there.
--- End quote ---
What fines to apply and to whom -- and when a prison term is called for -- is debatable. What's clear to me is that the drug penalties in place now are way out of line. Actually, I'm not only for reducing drug penalties, but for legalizing at least some drugs. Marijuana should never have been illegal in the first place. And I wonder how many people are doing time for pot-related crimes.
--- Quote ---Hold on. I didn't mean to imply that wealthy people were acquitted while the poor got executed, what I meant was that the poor get executed while the wealthy - still found guilty - manage to get jail time instead for the same crimes.
--- End quote ---
I don't think that I implied that you implied that. What I said was, "when the difference between being executed and not being executed is a matter of having money -- earned, inherited, whatever -- rather than being guilty, IMO the system is evil." There's a big difference between being executed and getting jail time. Any system that allows those punishments to be allocated on the basis of the convicted person's wealth is fundamentally immoral.
Penthesilea:
Killing people is wrong. Why should it suddenly be alright, when the killing is done by a state? Plus, a "state" is nothing more than an artificial structure, made by humans and represented by individuals. This means there are persons who think they have the right to take another person's life. When this person is an electrician, he's a murderer - and when this person is a judge (in office) it's alright?
The effect remains the same: one person thinks s/he is entitled to decide on another person's life or death. One (or more) person thinks another human being deserves death - this is simply wrong under any circumstances.
--- Quote ---From dellaluvia:
For the state to try to fund such a program would be like throwing money down a pit. Taking it simply as a financial matter, it might be cheaper over the long haul for the taxpayer to keep the offender in jail.
--- End quote ---
This frightens me outright. To judge people on a monetary basis, if it pays for the majority or not. I know it happens, not only in justice but also in other areas of life, but the coldness with which you seem to accept this as natural frightens me. I hope I got you wrong here.
opinionista:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on March 10, 2007, 01:17:52 am ---Prisons may not solve crime, but they're the best we can do to get criminals off the street without actually killing them. I don't know ... what do France and England and Sweden and Germany and Japan and all those other capital-punishment-free industrialized countries do to keep their murder rate lower than ours? Whatever it is, let's do that.
--- End quote ---
I believe there are far less guns available in most European countries. At least in Spain, there aren't as many guns out there as in the US. Also, there's a different approach to drug addiction and the drug culture in general, which is the cause of lots of murders in the US, IMO. Countries like The Netherlands treat it like a disease.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version