Tell me, though, why did that particular line devastate you for a week? You mean because you were haunted by the image of Jack driving all that way, full of hope, for nothing?
And I know this sounds like a book-club question, but: What do you suppose Annie's reasoning was, from a storytelling perspective, for mentioning things like the phone call and the punch in such a SEEMINGLY offhand way, long after their actual occurence?
See, I'm not a writer, and I wasn't an English major, and ... (I'm) somebody who, honestly, sucks at this kind of thing.
Annie Proulx had to prove that she wasn't one of those sappy romantic woman writers, despite writing an image as powerful as those two shirts like two skins.
In particular, the story about Jack's father abusing him during toilet training seems... I don't know. Like a deliberate counterbalance to all those emotional revelations, like Annie Proulx had to prove that she wasn't one of those sappy romantic woman writers...
despite writing an image as powerful as those two shirts like two skins.
So I'm not certain she did it to specifically prove she's not sappy - I see it more as Proulx just being Proulx.
My favorite example is Old Man Twist. Just as you note in the paragraph about Ennis, you form an impression of him and then discover something significant and apparently contradictory about him practically as an afterthought. You get that OMT is a jerk, but only later do you notice, wait a minute, he's a jerk but he's not an overtly homophobic jerk.
Really? How so? Not looking to argue here, but, tell you what, I never noticed this, and I'd be interested in knowing what detail of dialogue or behavior leads you to conclude this.I don't mean to preempt Katherine's own response, but I happen to agree with her, and here is the reason why: Mr. Twist accepts Ennis into his home. He addresses him; not in a friendly fashion, to be sure, but he acknowledges his presence, and speaks to him as one man to another. He allows Ennis to depart the house with Jack's shirt (and God knows what else Ennis might have had under there, as far as the Twists knew--they only saw Jack's blue shirt bundled up in Ennis's hands). And all this transpires with Mr. Twist's awareness that Ennis had been his son's lover. Any virulently homophobic person probably wouldn't even done half these things; they might well have run for their gun when someone they knew to be a "queer" stepped towards their door. Mr. Twist is a hateful man, and is homophobic, but he also somehow manages to treat Ennis with a modicum of decorum. He certainly seems less virulent in his homophobia than, say, Ennis's father had been.
Thanks!
I'd be interested in knowing what detail of dialogue or behavior leads you to conclude this.
I'm comfortable with my understanding, going all the way back to 1997, that the refusal to honor Jack's clearly stated wishes and allow his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback Mountain is just that hateful and hate-filled old man's final assertion of power over the son he despised.
The unanswerable, or unresolvable, question is, do we take John Twist at his word, and assume he despised his son for being a dreamer who never followed through, or are his comments merely a veil to conceal that he really despised his son because his son was "queer"?
Also, I'm not going to go so far as some people and say that he is gay, but I think that Uncle Harold might have been, that he was a younger brother of OMT, and that's what OMT means when he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is." (See, Harold, or "Hal" as I like to call him, went up on BBM 20 years ago with Joe Aguirre...STOP LEE!! [slaps self])
I'm comfortable with my understanding, going all the way back to 1997, that the refusal to honor Jack's clearly stated wishes and allow his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback Mountain is just that hateful and hate-filled old man's final assertion of power over the son he despised.
The unanswerable, or unresolvable, question is, do we take John Twist at his word, and assume he despised his son for being a dreamer who never followed through, or are his comments merely a veil to conceal that he really despised his son because his son was "queer"?
The old man sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. Ennis recognized in him a not uncommon type with the hard need to be the stud duck in the pond.
the distinction, IMO, between Movie Jack and Movie Ennis is sharper.
Let me try out an interpretation of the toilet scene. I'm not certain of this interpretation, not by a long shot, and I'm curious if this makes sense to anyone.
I wonder if the key isn't in the last few sentences:
I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that.
I know Jack's talking about being circumsized. But, well, is there more to it than that? I mean, here's a gay man saying that, somewhere far back in his childhood, he recognized that he was different from his father, in some way related to their sex organs. And then he says that there's "no way to get it right with him after that."
So... my take is that Jack knew he was attracted to men, sometime far back in his childhood. And although he probably never came out to his parents, he felt at some gut level that his sexual orientation, this fundamental difference between him and his father, was the root of their conflicts.
(The relevations in the Twist household are in a different order in the story, too -- Jack's mother tells Ennis he can go up to Jack's room before Jack's father talks about Jack's plans to bring first Ennis, then the ranch neighbor to Lightning Flat. So in the story it isn't clear whether Jack's parents know the shirts are hidden in Jack's room, or that Ennis takes them with him.)
But it isn't Jack's death that's the surprise, or at least, it isn't the biggest surprise. It's the discovery of the love we had missed noticing all along.
And those shirts were there, all along, in the second sentence of the story.
DO: Any omissions from the short story to the screenplay were dramatic choices. Most of what is in the short story is contained within the finished screenplay, although when we actually scripted the short story, it only amounted to about a third of the final script. We had to imagine and create the scenes that we added or fleshed out, meaning, essentially, that we had to create two-thirds of
Doesn't help a lot ... but gives a little insight.
I think the film script is a real improvement here. I can't resist repeating myself, but I've written elsewhere that if you watch really close, you can see that Ennis's lower lip is quivvering after that revelation about the ranch neighbor from Texas. Whatever else is going on, in the film Jack's mother, intervening just at this moment, is telling/giving permission to Ennis to go up to Jack's room to cry in peace and privacy, so he can keep his dignity and self-respect by not breaking down in front of Jack's father. (And when we see him enter Jack's room, Ennis's left cheek is wet). I think this is brilliant and very touching. Jack's mother is really being a mother to Ennis here, too. Frankly, this was one of my inspirations when I wrote my fanfic, "The Grieving Plain."
There's way too much more I could say, but I've got to work. (Katherine, I'll come back to your question when I'm not stealing time from my day job.)
You did touch on one of the issues I had in mind, though. I had a much harder time, to say the least, empathizing with the story's characters. I'd be interested to hear other people's views on that, too, while waiting for Mel to indulge her strange little habit of getting work done.
You did touch on one of the issues I had in mind, though. I had a much harder time, to say the least, empathizing with the story's characters. I'd be interested to hear other people's views on that, too, while waiting for Mel to indulge her strange little habit of getting work done.I had the same experience. Ennis and Jack are less immediately appealing in the story than they are in their movie incarnations. I think this ties into Annie's strategy--she's showing her characters' inner lives incrementally, so that we discover the extent of their emotional investment in each other at a parallel pace to their own self-discovery, making the revelation at the end all the more impacting.
You did touch on one of the issues I had in mind, though. I had a much harder time, to say the least, empathizing with the story's characters. I'd be interested to hear other people's views on that, too, while waiting for Mel to indulge her strange little habit of getting work done.
Nearly all of the characterizations are softened somewhat from the short story, I think, too. (That is, it's possible to empathize with most of the characters in the movie. In the story... well, it takes a re-read to seriously empathize with even Ennis and Jack.) And some of that is accomplished by moving a few lines or scenes around. (And a heck of a lot of it is accomplished by the fantastic acting. Heath in particular. Wow.)
As for empathizing …. you all probably know my answer. It would be Jack. I understand him very well. (Scarily well).
I find story-Jack to be fascinating because we only get hints about what he's like, and what we learn is often contradictory. (Jeff, you're entirely right about story-Jack being the kind of guy who doesn't seem all that trustworthy. But then... the memory of the dozy embrace. The shirts. How do you reconcile those with this guy who, well, reminds me a bit of a used car saleman?)
(Apologies to any highly romantic used car salesmen who happen to be reading this.)
Story-Jack as well as movie-Jack?
I find story-Jack to be fascinating because we only get hints about what he's like, and what we learn is often contradictory. (Jeff, you're entirely right about story-Jack being the kind of guy who doesn't seem all that trustworthy. But then... the memory of the dozy embrace. The shirts. How do you reconcile those with this guy who, well, reminds me a bit of a used car saleman?)
(Apologies to any highly romantic used car salesmen who happen to be reading this.)
Both movie and story Jack. I am not a used car salesperson ... but I am in sales. Hmmmm.... does that mean anything? :-\
I would not say that Jack is not trustworthy. I would say that he is selective about what he reveals. What I mean is that Jack chooses not to tell Ennis anything that might upset him (Ennis). That would include Aguirre’s knowledge of Jack’s and Ennis’ relationship as well as his (Jack’s) having sex with other men. Jack’s indiscretions have little to do with Ennis. In other words, he is not seeking out sex with other men because he wants to replace Ennis. On the contrary … he is using the others to help him get through all of the times he is without Ennis. Ennis is who Jack loves. In that regard, Jack is always loyal to Ennis. Jack separates the emotional from the physical. I have no doubt that had Ennis and Jack lived together, Jack would have been faithful. The problem is that Ennis could not or would not allow himself to have a life with Jack. Jack had sexual needs that were not being met. He was able to get that somewhere else. His relationship with Ennis was more than that. When everything came to a head (at the lake) … the reality wasn’t a shock to Ennis. It was hearing Jack say it/ admit it … that is what was painful. That was one time when Jack said “f**k it! I want you to hurt like I am hurting.” But even after that, Jack could not bear to see Ennis in pain … so he smoothed it over. They both knew the truth, but Jack chose to shield Ennis from it and Ennis accepted being sheltered.
Not sure if this is making much sense … It’s the best way that I can describe it.
You're in sales? You don't sell combines do you? :D
Wouldn't you like to know! ;) :laugh:
Well, then, you could be the best combine salesperson we got (probably the only combine salesperson we got. ...) ;) :laugh:
In fact, while we're at it, and because your reading of the story is so sensitive and astute, let me ask you: How do you feel about Story Jack and Ennis compared to their movie counterparts?
Jesus, Mel. Where were you eight months ago, when I first started trying to figure out why I liked the movie so much better than the story?
From nakymaton:
"It's like being slammed, over and over, with the realization that these weren't just
two guys who enjoyed having sex with one another -- this was an incredibly
profound love. And we don't learn the depth of it until Jack's dead."
From nakymaton:
Nearly all of the characterizations are softened somewhat from the short story, I
think, too. (That is, it's possible to empathize with most of the characters in the
movie. In the story... well, it takes a re-read to seriously empathize with even
Ennis and Jack.)
I'm inclined to think that at just that moment, he's not lying--not, anyway, lying in the sense of deliberately creating a falsehood.
to Lureen about liking the direction she's going,
I know this is a story discussion, but one thing you wrote jumped out at me: In the film is Jack really lying to Lureen in the back seat of that convertible?
because of the reference to Jack's line of dialogue, I took that as specifically referring to the scene in the back seat of the convertible and wrote my post accordingly. That's not a lukewarm response that we see there. Not from that grin on Jack's face. He's a 22-year-old boy who's about to get his rocks off. ... ;D
;D Heh. Here's where Katherine's and my experience with straight men comes into the conversation, I suspect. Straight 22-year-old boys about to get their rocks off tend to be a bit more, ummmm, aggressive and enthusiastic. Particularly when confronted with breasts.
Ummm, in my experience, at least. ;D
;D Heh. Here's where Katherine's and my experience with straight men comes into the conversation, I suspect. Straight 22-year-old boys about to get their rocks off tend to be a bit more, ummmm, aggressive and enthusiastic. Particularly when confronted with breasts.
Ummm, in my experience, at least. ;D
It just looks to me like Jack is a little surprised by her aggressiveness, but that grin on his face is universal: "Oh, boy, I'm gettin' laid!" ;DAnd quite possibly losing his virginity from a heterosexual perspective. A have a friend who has problems with Jack's line in this scene, thinking, as some others here have concurred, that it sounds awkward (especially to her heterosexual woman's ears). I suspect that is precisely the point--Jack is a homosexual going through the motions with someone who doesn't really stir his loins. He's saying something without having his heart in it.
And quite possibly losing his virginity from a heterosexual perspective.
He's saying something without having his heart in it.
Edit: Just an additional thought: If his heart's not in it, what the hell is doing getting into that car with her in the first place? :-\I see Jack seeking refuge and safety in a socially licit relationship. Previously, we saw him hitting on and getting rebuffed by Jimbo; a tense scene, where Jack might have been in very real danger. One might say that he's trying on heterosexuality for size, just as you mentioned many gay men historically have done. Lureen is a beautiful woman, and Jack would surely recognize that and appreciate it in his way, and the knowledge that she comes from money could be further inducement for him to court her. Furthermore, as far he knows, he may never see Ennis again--might be time for a fresh start, and if he can get it up for a woman (to put it crudely), perhaps all the better. Problem is, he's gay and in love with a man.
But don't forget, it's 1966. Back then, "nice girls" were not supposed to behave the way Lureen is behaving in that convertible.
Edit: Just an additional thought: If his heart's not in it, what the hell is doing getting into that car with her in the first place?
I see Jack seeking refuge and safety in a socially licit relationship. Previously, we saw him hitting on and getting rebuffed by Jimbo; a tense scene, where Jack might have been in very real danger. One might say that he's trying on heterosexuality for size, just as you mentioned many gay men historically have done. Lureen is a beautiful woman, and Jack would surely recognize that and appreciate it in his way, and the knowledge that she comes from money could be further inducement for him to court her. Furthermore, as far he knows, he may never see Ennis again--might be time for a fresh start, and if he can get it up for a woman (to put it crudely), perhaps all the better. Problem is, he's gay and in love with a man.
And when she whips off her bra, he actually looks slightly taken aback. :o
Diane: The story lie that gets to me most isn't in the movie. It's the moment in the motel when Ennis asks Jack if he has had sex with other guys, and Jack lies and says he hasn't. That's not just withholding information. Ennis was trying to sort out his feelings about his sexuality and about Jack, and even reveals that he thought about Jack while masturbating. (Sorry, TJ if you're out there, that's how I read the scene.) And then Jack lies. And lying in the face of that kind of personal revelation... well, that's harder to forgive than omissions are, at least for me.
we see Michelle's breasts so I guess we have to see Anne's! ::)
Tit for tat, hunh?
More like tit for tit. ;D
(Sorry, that was too obvious to pass by.)
Don't be sorry! Mine was a joke in the first place -- you just improved on it.
:laugh:
Ah, but I couldn't have done it if you hadn't fed me the line! :laugh:
Next stop for us: The Catskills! :laugh:
In the film, there is a scene where Ennis is asking Jack if Lureen suspects that Jack sleeps with men (to paraphrase it). Jack says no. But then Ennis asks Jack if he ever gets the feeling that people “know.” The reality is that Jack did experience that feeling … when he was trying to pick up Jimbo. This was a time where Ennis was being vulnerable and Jack could have answered honestly, but he chose not to. Instead, Jack suggested Ennis move to Texas. IMO, Jack is seeing his own actions as protecting Ennis from hurt and pain. He is not lying to save his own skin.
Before Jack tries to pick up Jimbo, we've seen 1) Ennis and Alma sledding;
I don't know about the Jack/Lureen scene, which comes right after the fireworks scene. That one doesn't fit the pattern quite so much -- it doesn't feel so much like we've been set up to feel sorry for Jack. Though Lureen comes on so strong and so fast that maybe it doesn't need to fit the pattern.[/list]
Back to the OP:
Judging on what I've read from Proulx (which is not much, allowedly) it's typical for Proulx to come off-hand, in half-sentences with crucial informations. Moreso, she likes to gut-punch her readers through the backdoor. A story may flow along - but then, in the last paragraph, or even in the last sentence, there comes the punch.
A good example for this is the story, which in German is called: "In Hell, all you want is a glass of Water" I just transalted the German title and hope the original one is the same or at least close enough for you to know what story I'm speaking of.
At the end of said story, a long-ago act of deathly violence is illustrated. Then she writes: "We're heading for a new millenium now and such things don't happen any more. A likely story!"
What comes to my mind is Proulx's description of the boys: "rough-mannerd and rough-spoken": Ennis peeing in the sink, Jack saying he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies. How much more loveable is the confession in the movie "miss you so bad I can hardly stand it".
For this pairing of scenes, maybe the fireworks scene is partly a reminder of the last time Ennis hit someone? I hadn't thought before that this would be one of the times that Ennnis was remembering Jack, but if this was the first occasion when he'd lost control since slugging Jack on that hillside, then maybe...
And for us, it reminds us that Ennis hurt Jack in more ways than one that last day, helping to emphasize why Jack liked the direction Lureen was going...toward him, instead of pushing away.
At one point, Ennis's question to Jack in the motel was "You do it with other guys? Jack?" and then it was changed to "You do it with other guys, Jack?"
I think you are on to something there, fernly. Ennis was either pushing Jack away, or simultaneously pushing/pulling him, sadly. Some people have disagreed with me that Jack had to change his behavior to be with Ennis or to placate him. In fact, people have told me that while he was with Ennis that Jack was at his most natural and that Ennis saw Jack's true self. I disagree. Not only did Jack have to change his behavior from the very beginning, but he had to lie and do things surrepticiously to avoid Ennis' blowing up at him.
I don't know that I can agree or disagree with you. I just don't see that it has to be so black and white. Certainly Jack had to make some adjustments. Jack kept certain things from Ennis as a way to protect/ placate him. But I also think that Ennis knew/ understood Jack in a way that nobody else could and vice versa. Ennis knew the truth about Jack’s indiscretions; he just didn’t want to acknowledge them. Jack allowed himself to be vulnerable around Ennis.
Ennis knew the truth about Jack’s indiscretions; he just didn’t want to acknowledge them.
What makes U think that, Diane?
Yes, Mel, in the New Yorker, it's "You do it with other guys, Jack?"
It does make a huge difference. For me, breaking that one sentence down into two, "You do it with other guys? Jack?" indicates that there is a bit of a pause, Jack doesn't answer right away, and Ennis has to prod him to answer. Like, maybe, Jack doesn't want to answer because he's concerned the effect of telling the truth might have on Ennis, and then when Ennis prods him for an answer, he lies.
Have you ever asked a question that you already know the answer? And then the answer you get you know is a lie? That’s how I see Ennis and Jack. I think both the story and the book make it clear that Ennis knew about Jack’s indiscretions, but Ennis chose not to deal with them (until it was thrust upon him). I don’t have the book in front of me … but it says something about what Ennis heard was no surprise. And Ennis’ comment about, “.. all them things that I don’t know ….” indicates that Ennis knows Jack has been with other men, but he doesn’t know the specifics (nor did he want to know the specifics).
So do you think the lying is more or less forgiveable with the New Yorker punctuation? "You do it with other guys, Jack?" sound more casual, and without the longer pause, it sounds like Jack didn't hesitate before answering. Is the pause (in the Close Range version) there because Jack is thinking about the effect of what he's going to say on Ennis?
(I'm enough of a fan of brutal honesty in relationships that, although I can understand Jack's lie as a way to protect Ennis, it's still something that I, personally, wouldn't want from a partner. But I'm not Ennis OR Jack.)
Anyway, I asked about novels, because it seems like the punch at the end is very much a technique used to make short fiction powerful. It reminds me of the twist endings that O. Henry is famous for (and the only story of his that I've ever read is the one about the guy and his wife buying Christmas presents for one another, but I know his other stories are supposed to have surprise endings, too). And it reminded me, actually, of a technique that a friend of mine uses when she writes drabbles (100-word fan fiction pieces) -- her drabbles always feel especially complete and poignant to me, because she always manages to set up a scene and then make some kind of emotional or thought-provoking twist at the end. (She doesn't write BBM fanfic, so most of you wouldn't know her.) And she knows a lot more about writing than I do, so maybe she does it deliberately because she knows it's a good technique to use in short fiction. I've never talked to her about it, though.
Yes! I agree entirely. In some ways, the very rough-spokenness of the boys in the story makes the discovery of the tenderness all that more powerful. But on the other hand... well, I'm glad the line about whipping babies isn't in the movies. It would have detracted from the mood in that scene, to say the least.
(The sink-peeing amuses me, though. I wouldn't put it in the movie, but as a story detail, it makes me laugh, when I think about it. I mean -- talk about going a level beyond leaving the toilet seat up!)
I wouldn't want the lying from a partner, either.
I know next to nothing about English literature. Everything I know about short stories as a form of prose is in regard to German literature: immediate beginning (without introducion of characters), open or half open end, "everyday" plot, but with conflicts, few characters, only a short period of time is covered within the plot, simple and plain language to name just some.
Since the short story as an art form in Germany developped in following the American archetype, I guess those characteristics are true for the American short story, too
What is telling the truth going to accomplish, except to hurt Ennis?
I was talking specifically about the story. It seems to me it might have accomplished a lot if Jack had been up front with Ennis right from the get-go at their reunion in 1967. I've always been convinced that by 1967 Story Ennis knows perfectly well that he's in love with Jack, and if Jack--the man he knows he loves--had been honest with him it might have helped Ennis to be more comfortable with their whole situation. It would have set their relationship off on an honest foundation--or a more honest foundation, anyway--or else it would have been a deal breaker, in which case we would have had no story and no movie.
But Jack's dishonesty in the motel sets them up for a 16-year relationship (till 1983 in the story) built on a lie. No wonder Ennis collapses when he learns that Jack has been screwing around in Mexico. All that time Ennis has supposed they had a one-shot deal going on, and it wasn't true.
That's rightTJuh Jeff. Everything I brought up in that last post had to do with the movie. And perhaps that was unforgiveable for Jack to lie about rolling it with other men. In the story didn't Ennis ask what other people do when this happens to them, and Jack said, I dunno, maybe they go to Denver... and then he said, I don't give a flyin f**k. Let's U and me get away to the mountains for a few days (I'm paraphrasing here). So Jack opted for just a few days more of what he wanted, cause he could see that Ennis hadn't really changed and he wasn't ever going to get what he wanted, long-term. He was practical in his own way.
BTW, any of you symbolism-sensitive people out there..."flyin f**k... eagle alert!!
But Jack still doesn't behave the way he normally would .... Even though he lets his guard down, Jack can't just be himself around Ennis.
I know Katherine dislikes the process, but I've often used the story to help formulate my understanding of the film, usually by way of comparison and contrast
What I meant by "hadn't really changed" Jeff, was that Ennis still believed that he could only carry on his relationship with Jack "every once in a while" "way out in the middle of nowhere" and wouldn't leave his wife/daughters/miserable life for Jack. I believe that's the same situation in the story and the film. You are right in that story Ennis is more vocal, sympathetic, demonstrative than movie Ennis. What I really love about the story is that it portrays the two men together against a hostile world, whereas in the movie they are almost against each other some of the time.
From my pov, the film has far more layers than the story because of ths visual aspect. The written story was fairly cut and dry.
It was what it was, and I don't think that AP had any intention of being purposfully ambiguous. I think she was just being truthfull that there are no complete answers and sometimes you have to just accept that.
So, jumping on Katherine's mention of an omniscient narrator.
I can understand why AP didn't use a 100% omniscient narrator. It's interesting, though, that the narrator is maybe a bit more omniscient that I would expect, given all the stuff I've been saying about how the story is essentially from Ennis's POV. I mean, there are a number of times where we learn things that Ennis wouldn't have known at the time -- Jack's memory of the dozy embrace is the most obvious one to me, but there are also some offhand references to things that Ennis wouldn't have known about Jack ("riding more than bulls," for one), or about Alma (her silent thought that what Ennis likes to do doesn't make too many babies), or Aguirre ("ranch stiffs aren't ever any good"). And the descriptions of the natural world, too, are in very erudite language ("somber slabs of malachite") -- they're quite a contrast from the language in the dialogue.
So why does Annie Proulx do this? Does it keep us a bit more distant from the characters? Is the story from the POV of an older Ennis, and we're hearing what old-Ennis thought people were thinking? Does the sophisticated language of the descriptions capture how Ennis feels about the natural world, even if he wouldn't use those words?
Am I thinking too much about this?
So why does Annie Proulx do this? Does it keep us a bit more distant from the characters? Is the story from the POV of an older Ennis, and we're hearing what old-Ennis thought people were thinking? Does the sophisticated language of the descriptions capture how Ennis feels about the natural world, even if he wouldn't use those words?
Am I thinking too much about this?
I wouldn't say it's narrow-minded of you, Katherine.
As a former editor who had very old-fashioned training, it drove me crazy to see going as goin without an apostrophe in place of the final g.
Well, I was expecting I might get resistance particularly from our Western members. It could just be that I'm unfamiliar with how guys like that would really talk. The movie versions, as I said, I could totally buy, but to me the story guys seemed to veer into the realm of caricature. But then, I've never lived in Wyoming.
One thing that I've heard other people (maybe at the Dave Cullen forum?) mention: all the swearing. Somebody somewhere mentioned that the ranch kids they knew tended to be really polite in their speech, even if their grammar wasn't perfect. And a friend of mine who teaches middle school to ranch kids has made similar comments -- that she's never met kids who say "yes, ma'am" and "no, sir" more than the kids who were raised on ranches.
Aside: I think it's really, really hard to write American dialects, at least, in a way that doesn't seem to make fun of them. I mean, to the people speaking the dialects, that's simply the way the words are pronounced. Spelling them phonetically seems to say that "these people are speaking wrong."
How would Annie Proulx pick up the language that two native Wyoming men speak to one another?
she's never met kids who say "yes, ma'am" and "no, sir" more than the kids who were raised on ranches.
Generally, though, I never gave the swearing a thought because it's been my experience that working class people do swear more than people with middle-class pretensions.
Well, Jack and Ennis do say ma'am and sir (Jack to Alma; Ennis to the Twists). But like Jeff, I'd guess that real ranch hands must swear a lot when they're together. Hell, most of the people I know have goddamn middle-class pretensions, and yet a lot of those sons of bitches fuckin swear all the time.
By the way, I meant to say something about Jeff's comment about the language in the story sounding like oral story-telling. YES. That's exactly it. Sometimes I get the urge to read the story out loud; it feels like that's how it should be read.
I want to back track briefly to a comment that Jeff made regarding story Jack’s lie at the motel. It is one of those things that I am sure we will never see eye to eye. I just don’t see that it is that big of a deal. IMO, Ennis was asking Jack if he was with other men as a way to feel out if Jack saw Ennis as being special. I am not sure if I am explaining this very well. But, Ennis is trying to sort out if Jack’s relationship with him is different than other relationships that Jack may have previously had. The truth of it is, yes … Jack’s feelings for Ennis are different than anyone else he would have been with. So, why would Jack want to cheapen their time together? Jack had sex with other men, but he didn’t make love to them. He f**ked them … big difference!
Ennis pulled Jack's hand to his mouth, took a hit from the cigarette, exhaled. "Sure as hell seem in one piece to me. You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was--? I know I ain't. I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?
So, why would Jack want to cheapen their time together? Jack had sex with other men, but he didn’t make love to them. He f**ked them … big difference!
can you imagine Jack in this conversation (here it is in the story):
“I didn’t want none a either kind …. But fuck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way.”
Saying it like ….
“I never wanted children. Nothing has worked out the way that I had hoped.”
But if Jack's lie in the motel in 1967 isn't such a big deal, then why does Ennis collapse 16 years later, at their confrontation in 1983, when he finds out for sure that all those years he thought he and Jack had "a one-shot thing"
if he had been honest about having sex with other guys in those four years apart from Ennis, it might have helped Ennis come to terms with his own sexuality.
Plus, I think Ennis is still figuring out his sexuality here. <snip>
Look at that "right?" after "here we both got wives and kids." At this point in the story Ennis is still questioning his sexual orientation--clinging to the notion that having a wife and children means he's not queer. I understand Jack was probably afraid to be honest with Ennis here, but if he had been honest about having sex with other guys in those four years apart from Ennis, it might have helped Ennis come to terms with his own sexuality.
I don't think fidelity is really the main point to the conversation. I mean, can they be worrying about being faithful to each other when they're still trying to come to grips with the fact that they really like having sex with each other?
Maybe I'm committing the cardinal mistake of imposing movie rules onto the story.
No, you're just coming to grips with how different the movie and the story are.
So when someone says something about, say, Ennis' motivations in the story, I tend to picture movie Ennis, even though it might not apply to him.
QuoteQuote from: latjoreme on Today at 12:38:09 amPerfectly understandable, Little Darlin'! ;)
So when someone says something about, say, Ennis' motivations in the story, I tend to picture movie Ennis, even though it might not apply to him.
And I get the feeling that Jack's lie in the motel room in 1967 is the snowball that starts to roll down hill and just gets bigger and bigger until 1983. Then, just before Ennis collapses, "as if heart-shot," we read, "Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable--admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears--rose around them."
In the written story the motel scene after a four-year hiatus stood as central. During their few hours in the Motel Siesta, Jack's and Ennis's paths were irrevocably laid out.
It’s not until Jack talks about wishing he knew how to quit him that Ennis breaks down—that’s the shot to the heart. Not Mexico, not doin’ it with other guys. All the other factors (“admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears”) are part of “It’s because of you, Jack, that I’m like this,” but the trigger is that now, suddenly, one of Ennis’s bedrocks is crumbling.
The "admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears” is an interesting phrase. What are some of those As, Ds, Ss, Gs and Fs? I'd say that at least some of them -- S, G, F, maybe A -- have to do with being gay. And D (and maybe also A and F) has to do with love. But do you all think they're any more specific than that?
And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.
Sure. Here are just few I can think of ...
- You know that old shirt of yours...?
Let's bear in mind that the "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" line is film-only. Story Ennis doesn't say one little word. He just collapses on his knees, fists clenched and eyes screwed shut--and Jack isn't sure if he's had a heart attack or if it's "the overflow of an incendiary rage" that causes the collapse.
And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.
So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there.
The implied threat to quit Ennis is surely is part of the collapse, but can you really parse out a single cause here? Jack's just let go at him with both barrels. And considering that Ennis has just threatened to kill Jack, I still think the infidelity is a big deal to Ennis. Whether he's had his head in the sand for 16 years, I don't know, but having to face up to it is clearly a big issue.
And I think it remains, as Annie herself has more or less said, that what happens in the Siesta Motel in June 1967 points inevitably to what happens in the trailhead parking lot in May 1983.
So that's pretty much all the elements in the relationship right there. On Ennis's end, the fears and guilt and confusion and responsibility; on Jack's end, the desire to live together. And did you notice how they talk past each other at one point? Jack keeps talking about wanting to get out of the rodeo and change things; Ennis keeps going back to his confusion and fears and responsibilities. In the end, Ennis hears the proposal and Jack gets the message about Ennis's fears, but they still don't really resolve things.
"If you can believe it, I got a better idea from Aguirre once. Instead of telling our wives we was fishin’ buddies, we shoulda said we been gardening all these years.”
You are leaving out a paragraph ….
“ ‘Jesus,’ said Jack. ‘Ennis?’ But before he was out of the truck, trying to guess if it was a heart attack or the overflow of an incendiary rage, Ennis was back on his feet and somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.”
To me the film showed enough, just, that the passion was still very musch alive between Jack an Ennis, Horseback riding, even the lakeside Texas argument, and of course TS3.
My biggest gripe about the film is that it tones down the passion between Jack and Ennis as they grow older. The lake scene in the film does show Jack’s vulnerability … admitting he misses Ennis to the point he can’t stand it. But it skips from that moment to TS3 … which is an intimate scene, but does not reflect the intensity of the passion they still have for each other.
No, I don't think, or feel, that I'm leaving out, or ignoring, that paragraph. It's what I said earlier about the difference between suspecting something and having to deal face-on with the reality of it when you get confirmation that what you've been suspecting, or fearing, is actually true. Mexico isn't news, but now it's out in the open and Ennis has to deal with it.
To me the film showed enough, just, that the passion was still very much alive between Jack and Ennis, Horseback riding, even the lakeside Texas argument, and of course TS3.
It isn't so much that movie-Ennis doesn't understand what's going on, but that he's still so tangled up inside that he can't act.
Every now and then, my Inner Naughty Girl and my Inner Defender of Artistic Purity don't quite see eye to eye.
Story vs movie note: the story says Jack's tone was "bitter and accusatory." I'm not sure I would describe it that way in the movie, but I'm curious what other people think.
Ennis doesn't like Jack having sex with other men (and is it important to Ennis that Jack lies about it? I don't know).
On the other hand, there's the story line from near the end: "...though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind." I'm not quite sure what that line means, but I wonder if it's partly a reference to Jack's, hmmmm, non-monogamous leanings (for lack of a good way to put it)?
I would not mind seeing more at all. In the 2003 screen play there are a lot more scenes of their later camping trips.
But the story is more descriptive of their passion in their later years than is the film. For me, I find that to be a (very) small flaw (in the movie). When you read the story, there is no doubt that Jack and Ennis’ love and passion for each other is as intense as it was on BBM. IMO, you don’t sense that in the film until they have their argument. It is at that point where the depth of their feelings for each other is revealed. Don’t get me wrong … I am not saying that don’t love and crave each other. What I am saying is that after the reunion scene, we really don’t see their passion and desire for each other (certainly not to the extent that the story describes).
Jack was not lying to Ennis about the Ranch foremans wife
Hmm! That IS a different view, Mark. What do you make of Mr. Twist's revelation that Jack had said he planned to bring some other fella up to work the ranch?I think Jack was talking out of frustration of what happened at the lake with Ennis. It could have been brought on by Mr. Twist saying "What ever happened to that Ennis Del Mar?" He knew that he would never bring Randall up there to LF if he even knew where Randall was at that point.
“Ennis ran full-throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending”
When does movie-Ennis ever spend money at ‘full-throttle’? For that matter, when did story-Ennis spend money? There was no way to fix the transmission, and he had a “tobacco can with two five-dollar bills inside.”
Does Ennis ever mend fences? He puts up a lot of fences between himself and other people, and he tends not to mend problems in his relationships.
That's a weird line, isn't it? That was one of the few descriptions in the story that wasn't that vivid for me, and you're right, we don't see that side of Ennis really, do we?
I assume that Ennis had mended plenty of fences doing ranch work, but I've never thought of fence-mending as the sort of activity that one throws oneself into with the sort of, hmmm, impulsiveness or decisiveness that Ennis displays in TS1. As for money-spending... well, I've known people who don't have much money, but who spend what they've got pretty impulsively. It's easier today with widespread credit card use, though.
You're right, the description sure doesn't fit movie-Ennis, who is really cautious about pretty much everything. (Heck, he even wants to be cautious for Jack when he sees Jack on the low-startle-point mare the first time!)
But then again in the movie, there's that sort of dance between Jack and Ennis before they have sex, so it isn't as sudden as it seems to be in the book, either. (Though the meaning of "they deepened their intimacy" is open to a lot of interpretation, so maybe it wasn't as sudden as it seems in the book, either.)
Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.
Second possible interpretaion.
Ennis didn't want his hand on Jack's erect cock at all.
On Ennis' characterization as a full throttle type:
But on the other side: Ennis was sure the type who would commit himself totally to what he had decided to do. This goes along with his stubbornness and with him being more of a rule-follower than Jack. Ennis had decided to do the job of protecting the sheep, and he refused to shoot one. He had decided to marry Alma, and he did. I think when Ennis worked, he worked hard. And when he met the foul mouthed bikers, he sure went full throttle with them. First he was trying to calm the situation down, but when he decided to take action, it sure was full throttle.
That is one really big difference between the movie and the story. Movie Ennis seems to be much more repressed and different than Jack. The movie is a compare-and-contrast between Jack and Ennis, much more of a romantic he-said-she-said type of story. The story is more subtle and more of a meeting-of-the-minds between Ennis and Jack. The couple, in the story are against a harsh and disapproving world; in the movie, they are often against each other.
Ennis seemed to run full throttle in the first sex scene. In the movie i feel it was a complete surprise. I didn't see any kind of attraction dance between them.
Another line that strikes me as odd: “He had no serious hard feelings, just a vague sense of getting shortchanged, and showed it was all right by taking Thanksgiving dinner with Alma and her grocer and the kids...”
Ennis felt shortchanged?
And by his divorce?? ???"...just a vague sense of getting shortchanged,..." (emphasis added); sure, I can see Ennis feeling this way, quite possibly by the divorce alone. It's less certain in the story, but in the film I have no doubt that Ennis does love Alma--he's just not in love with her. We see him letting a tear fall during the divorce scene; one imagines he's feeling disappointment, and possibly shame for not having lived up to his, and to his society's, expectations of him as a man.
All of the above make sense. But I'll have to say I find it hard to see Ennis as this macho man who feels threatened by whether his wife is impregnated or not.
In the scene where he says he'd be happy to leave her alone if she doesn't want no more of his kids, I read it as, "Thank god! Here's an excuse to get out of this." And in the conversation with Jack about sons vs. daughters, well, that's story vs. movie, but still I don't see that as necessarily a sign of machismo (I used to want a girl for a kid -- maybe because I am a girl -- but just got little boys, yet I'm really not THAT much of a girly-girl, and by the time they were born I was perfectly fine with it). In the Thanksgiving fiasco, I don't see Ennis as being castrated so much as going along just to be nice to his kids (not to be the "sad dad"). I see no sign that he is bothered by either his inability to support his family or Alma being impregnated by another man. He could have done either if he'd wanted to (taken the job at the electric company, had sex with Alma), but it appeared to me he didn't want to.
Here I am, as usual, dilligently defending Ennis. But really, that's really just how I see the movie!
In the scene where he says he'd be happy to leave her alone if she doesn't want no more of his kids, I read it as, "Thank god! Here's an excuse to get out of this." And in the conversation with Jack about sons vs. daughters, well, that's story vs. movie, but still I don't see that as necessarily a sign of machismo (I used to want a girl for a kid -- maybe because I am a girl -- but just got little boys, yet I'm really not THAT much of a girly-girl, and by the time they were born I was perfectly fine with it). In the Thanksgiving fiasco, I don't see Ennis as being castrated so much as going along just to be nice to his kids (not to be the "sad dad"). I see no sign that he is bothered by either his inability to support his family or Alma being impregnated by another man. He could have done either if he'd wanted to (taken the job at the electric company, had sex with Alma), but it appeared to me he didn't want to.
Here I am, as usual, dilligently defending Ennis. But really, that's really just how I see the movie!
He fell short of society's and his own expectations. Not that he was devastated by it, but he felt gypped. I may have used too strong of words, but the essence is the same.
With all the Tremblayans celebrating their first six months on Bettermost, I started thinking about my own anniversaries. I'll have been on Bettermost for six months next week, but more importantly to me, I first read the story almost a year ago, on October 23, 2005. I found the exact date by hunting through my livejournal... and I want to post my first reaction to the story here, in honor of the anniversary of the story's original publication.
***
October 25, 2005
So this weekend I was introduced to this short story by Annie Proulx (yes it is profic, but there is a copy posted on line), and I immediately read it again, and again, and again. And then I hunted down the trailer for the movie. And then I watched the trailer several times. And then I got on google and started looking for more information, even though I had other things I should have been doing.
Some of you might recall that you've known me to go through this behavior before. This is what I do when I get obsessed about something. Wheeee!
There's been all kinds of things written about Jack's death. But in one interview with Jake I caught, he said he felt Jack died when he realized there was never going to be a life with Ennis. That one sentence from Jake has been chewing on me for awhile. Cause it sure does shed a light on the change that comes over Jack after he drives that twelve hundred miles for nothing. Where in tears, he drives clear to Mexico to find physical release of a fix for the death of this hope, perhaps his soul, if not his love for one Ennis DelMar.
Part of what attracts me to Mz. Proulx's writing is it is real. Nothing in life is a true perfect moment. Every expression we make, ever action we initiate, all of it flows from what has gone before in our lives. We think we fix one problem in our lives, just to find it has found a different way to express itself. With luck, that new way is healthier, and a bit less destructive.
There's been all kinds of things written about Jack's death. But in one interview with Jake I caught, he said he felt Jack died when he realized there was never going to be a life with Ennis. That one sentence from Jake has been chewing on me for awhile. Cause it sure does shed a light on the change that comes over Jack after he drives that twelve hundred miles for nothing. Where in tears, he drives clear to Mexico to find physical release of a fix for the death of this hope, perhaps his soul, if not his love for one Ennis DelMar.
I only mentioned IMO that on first impression, the grammar and sentence structure surprised me. Her 'style', I guess, took some getting used to for me. I have reread it multiple times since then and it has grown on me.
Katherine asked this question ages ago, when we were discussing the brief reference to Jack's post-divorce drive ("twelve hundred miles for nothing"):that is about the most profound and insiteful post about brokeback i have ever read...i loved loved loved it...you may not think you are a writer, but that is not true..janice
I know it's taken me a long time to answer the question. Not four f'ing years, but long enough. See, I'm not a writer, and I wasn't an English major, and most of the time I'll be damned if I can figure out what makes a piece of writing work (or fail to work) for me. So here's a pretty lame attempt to talk about sentence structure and story structure by somebody who, honestly, sucks at this kind of thing.
My first response is: you know, that isn't the only time in the story that important information, particularly important emotional information, comes out in an off-hand kind of way, at the end of a sentence or a paragraph that, at first glance, appears to be about something else.
The first example is in the prologue, in the first paragraph:
"...Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."
Here's this entire paragraph that's about -- what? Rural poverty, the loss of Western land to developers, and the lifestyle of a guy who's more than a little rough around the edges, peeing in the sink, hanging his clothes from a nail or something? It's not just unromantic -- it's anti-romantic.
And then, at the end of the paragraph, there's that little half-sentence. ...he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream. And there, almost hidden at the end of run-on sentences and bleak descriptions, is the most important detail in the entire prologue.
It's... well, it's a surprise, I guess. Here I, the reader, have been lulled into thinking that I understand this character and his situation, and then suddenly, in half a sentence, everything I understood is turned on its head. It's not the way I would structure, say, a scientific argument, but I think there's something powerful about forcing a sudden change in perception. It's like... I don't know, like a Zen koan, or like suddenly waking up. It draws attention to the detail that's out of place.
And it's a particularly appropriate structure for characterizing Ennis. I mean, if you didn't pay that close attention to Ennis, you might see a guy who works hard, has earned enough respect to be responsible for the keys to the ranch, but who hasn't earned enough money to own a ranch himself. And a guy who... well, he doesn't quite seem the cocktail party type, does he? But the surface appearances don't even begin to tell the story of Ennis del Mar, and the real story slips out only at the end, only if you're paying attention.
And that's not the only time that the end of a sentence or paragraph contains something unexpected, something apparently unrelated, a kind of revelation:
"They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddamn word except once Ennis said, 'I'm not no queer,' and Jack jumped in with 'Me neither. A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours.'"
"Years on years they worked their way through the high meadows and mountain drainages...[snip]...but never returning to Brokeback."
The whole paragraph in which Ennis and Jack talk about other affairs, but which ends with:
"Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies."
"Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back marked DECEASED."
And the sentence I was thinking about, right after it:
"He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."
I guess the structure of the whole story also hides the main point until the end. Lots of people have pointed out that, after the reunion at least, Jack and Ennis seem to talk about their attraction to each other a lot:
"'Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback that makes it so goddamn good.'"
"'Sure as hell seem in one piece to me...'"
"'...I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.'"
"'That's one a the two things I need right now...'"
But you know what? All that time, they're talking about sex. So they seem to accept the sex, and unlike on the mountain, they even talk about it.
But the emotional depth of the relationship isn't apparent... until the flashback to the dozy embrace.
And then the offhand mention of the twelve hundred drive for nothing.
And then learning that Jack wanted his ashes spread on Brokeback Mountain, that it was "his place."
And then Old Man Twist's revelation that Jack had talked about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, at least until that last visit.
And then the description of the punch, mixed together with the discovery of the shirts.
It's like being slammed, over and over, with the realization that these weren't just two guys who enjoyed having sex with one another -- this was an incredibly profound love. And we don't learn the depth of it until Jack's dead.
I know enough about the short story form to know about O. Henry's stories, and about the way the plot always goes off in an unexpected direction at the end. I guess, in a way, Brokeback Mountain follows that form. But it isn't Jack's death that's the surprise, or at least, it isn't the biggest surprise. It's the discovery of the love we had missed noticing all along. Love, not just sex -- that's the twist.
And I think the whole story structure is part of the characterization of Ennis, as well. We're never allowed too deeply into Ennis's mind. We're allowed to see some of the events, and we're allowed to see the sex. But the love... the details that point to it are mentioned in offhand comments, as if they are pushed out of mind, until Jack's dead and the realization all comes together.
And then, going back and reading the story again, all those details that add up to the love start to stand out. Pawing the white out of the moon. The headlong, irreversible fall. Trying to puke in the whirling snow. "Little darlin." "This ain't no little thing that's happenin here." Reading the story for a second time is like dreaming with Ennis.
And those shirts were there, all along, in the second sentence of the story.
I hope nakymaton will grace us with one more offhand revelation before taking off for parts unknown. :'(
- “Ennis, weather-eyed, looked west for the heated cumulus that might come up on such a day” -and- “On the third morning there were the clouds Ennis had expected” -- Jack might control the weather, but it’s Ennis who can predict it.
It's like being slammed, over and over, with the realization that these weren't just two guys who enjoyed having sex with one another -- this was an incredibly profound love. And we don't learn the depth of it until Jack's dead.
I know enough about the short story form to know about O. Henry's stories, and about the way the plot always goes off in an unexpected direction at the end. I guess, in a way, Brokeback Mountain follows that form. But it isn't Jack's death that's the surprise, or at least, it isn't the biggest surprise. It's the discovery of the love we had missed noticing all along. Love, not just sex -- that's the twist.
And I think the whole story structure is part of the characterization of Ennis, as well. We're never allowed too deeply into Ennis's mind. We're allowed to see some of the events, and we're allowed to see the sex. But the love... the details that point to it are mentioned in offhand comments, as if they are pushed out of mind, until Jack's dead and the realization all comes together.
And then, going back and reading the story again, all those details that add up to the love start to stand out. Pawing the white out of the moon. The headlong, irreversible fall. Trying to puke in the whirling snow. "Little darlin." "This ain't no little thing that's happenin here." Reading the story for a second time is like dreaming with Ennis.
And those shirts were there, all along, in the second sentence of the story.
no i know. thanks, do you happenv to major in literature?
This brings up another point that I have made, but I think only on IMDB - I believe that in the Story, NOTHING like the second tent scene occurred. I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion. Indeed, as Mel says to start this post - neither you the reader nor Story Ennis himself knew Ennis really loved Jack until the end of the story . . .
(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. ;) )
I think it's possible that (story) Jack & Ennis didn't kiss until the reunion.
On the other hand, I think it's also possible that they did, but we aren't shown those memories. Near the end of the story, we suddenly learn a lot of details that change our perception of the relationship, that show that the two men were in love, though Ennis (probably) couldn't accept it. If we had known about them kissing on the mountain, would that have changed our perception of the relationship early in the story? I think it would have... I think it would have lessened the emotional punch of those last few pages, because we would have known about the love all along.
(The movie is structured differently, and it's just as effective as the story... I've finally got over my old crankiness about the second tent scene. Though I'm still just as cranky about reading additional mushiness (*cough* "I love you" *cough*) into the movie. ;) )
The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back. Which is interesting it its way if you also agree that in the story the boys only had "Ennis pitching/Jack receiving" sexual encounters (was that a delicate enough way of putting it?) and nothing more - perhaps throughout their entire relationship (in the story). This could be further bolstered by Jack's thought, at the time of his flashback, that perhaps they had never progressed much farther.
From mlewisisc:
I side with those who say that most of Film Ennis's issues arise from his struggle against his sexuality. But perhaps Story Ennis's issues arise merely from the misfortune of the only real love in his life being a man. Story Ennis is more concerned with the consequences - physical and potentially social - that arise from a sexual relationship with Jack. Film Ennis is concerned with the fact that he is so attracted to another man, more perhaps than the consequences.
I don't believe the boys kissed - ever - until the four year reunion.
but as far as artistic and emotional impact goes... I think you can believe what you want to believe.
The item that really leads me to believe the boys in the story ONLY had sex and did not kiss prior to the reunion is the flashback to the "embrace" itself, e.g., when Jack realized Ennis wanted to neither see nor feel that it was Jack he held - thus all the affection directed at his back.
Yeah, I think the interpretation hinges on how literally you read the flashback to the dozy embrace. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack that he held. There's the literal description, and then there's the symbolism of Ennis not wanting to "face" his feelings about Jack. It's a fascinating description from a writing perspective -- both "face" and "embrace" can mean literally looking at someone or hugging someone, or figuratively accepting something. But although Proulx uses both words in the passage, the actual description of Ennis's reluctance focuses on the literal act, rather than on the figurative implication. I think she's deliberately evoking both interpretations, but she's subtle about it. (Subtle enough to get people arguing about it!)
...and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack's big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet salvia welling, ...
There's something about "the right key turning the lock tumblers" that, hmmm, maybe suggests to me that this was a new discovery. And the intensity could be the result of both the four-year separation and the repression of the urge to kiss on the mountain.
So maybe Annie Proulx erred on the side of too many words. But, well, she didn't have Heath Ledger's acting to carry the story for her. No wonder she was so knocked out by his performance!
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Chrissi and Meryl and Lee and momof2! I was playing devil's advocate with mlewis back there. I think he/she has a really good point, and the more I think about it, the more I think he/she's probably right about the story.
Back before the movie came out except in festivals, somebody on Wranglers actually argued that the reunion kiss might have been so intense precisely because it was the first time they had actually kissed. (The person on Wranglers was pretty much torn to pieces for even suggesting that possibility; some people had already seen the movie, and some people had already written fanfic, and I think most people were very attached to the image of Jack and Ennis kissing, and kissing a lot, that existed in their minds. Which, you know, I can't really blame them for...)
Chrissi (Penthesilea)'s quote:
There's something about "the right key turning the lock tumblers" that, hmmm, maybe suggests to me that this was a new discovery. And the intensity could be the result of both the four-year separation and the repression of the urge to kiss on the mountain.
Because kissing really is something special, something emotionally intimate. So I understand why people want to believe that they kissed on the mountain, and I understand why Ang Lee (or whoever, but I suspect it was Ang) decided that the movie needed something like the 2nd tent scene. But the way I read story-Ennis, he's a real mess. I don't buy the argument that story-Ennis is focused on his external fears; I think that the Inner Parent that Meryl describes was just as much of a force in story-Ennis's life as he was for movie-Ennis. So I think that Ennis may very well have avoided kissing in the midst of all that rough, quick, laughing-and-snorting sex... because that would have meant acknowledging that he was queer. And he couldn't do that; he experienced the emotions in strange, metaphorical ways, as a "head-long, irreversible fall" and as a need to puke.
And I think I've read some guys saying that, yes, denial can be like that, that there are guys who will avoid kissing to avoid recognizing that they are gay. I'm not a gay man, though, so I can't speak from my own experience.
Now all this has made me think of something else - and it kinda contradicts what I just said above. When Story Ennis divorced Alma, and called Jack, and Jack drove 1200 miles for nothing - what stopped Story Ennis from going ahead and "ranching up" with Jack at that time? It had to still be the fear of the tire iron, right? In that way, at least, he was just the same as Film Ennis - just, as Mel says above, a difference of how to show the same character in print vs on screen.
So if any of you find me rehashing old stuff - please be patient! And I do love everyone's input - it's so enlightening - thesis, antithesis, resolution of a new thesis that itself gets bashed into something even better.
In the end, I don't think it matters whether they kissed on the mountain in the story or not. It's a detail that's important for fanfic writers and for people who demand exact translations of a story to a movie, but as far as artistic and emotional impact goes... I think you can believe what you want to believe.
(Edit to fix a typo.)
Exactly *that* expression of the right key turning the lock tumblers gives me the impression it was not their first kiss: they came together easily, naturally, like (and because) they had done many times before, like it had always been between them, despite the four years of being apart.
Thanks Jeff! ;D
Too early in the morning to really think much out here, but maybe there's a simpler proposition I can throw out and see if I get a general agreement. This may seem WAY too obvious, but knowing where folks stand can help. Would most of you agree that, within the confines of the story, Jack is the ONLY man Ennis ever is "with" sexually? If that's true, then do we believe his motel statement that he "never had no thoughs a doin it with another guy"? How about after the motel scene? Did he have those thoughts later in the relationship? How about after Jack's death?
Ms. P's explanation of where the character Ennis came from (older cowboy in bar giving longing looks to young, pool-playing ranch hands) seems to be at odds with what on the surface I take from the story - as we said before on IMDB, to me, Story Ennis is a "one-man man" - for life! This enhances the tragedy of the entire situation of course - and has spawned many a "happy ending for Ennis" fanfic.
Thoughts?
Hold that thought for a sec while I go back to the original topic. Talk about your offhand, tacked-on revelations. What about the statement in the story where it says "Ennis married Alma in November and had her pregnant by January." This is portrayed differently in the movie. There, the marriage ceremony is concluded by the preacher saying, "You may kiss the bride. And if you don't, I will." The effect is to show that the institution of marriage is a house of cards (not worth shoring up with a Constitutional Amendment, I have to add).
The story comment makes it clear that Ennis married Alma to prove his masculinity.
Does it? Or does it just illustrate that this is what you do when you're a 19- or 20-year-old ranch kid in 1963 Wyoming (and maybe still today)? You find yourself a girlfriend, marry her young, and--'scuse the vulgarity--knock her up immediately? Was Ennis really that self-aware, or was he just fulfilling societal norms?
Maybe the "longing" Annie observed in the older cowboy in the bar wasn't actually desire for the boys shootin' pool. Maybe that longing was actually for a lost love. Perhaps watching those young cowboys brought back memories of a relationship in his own past, when he, himself, was as young as the boys he was watching when Annie noticed him. Perhaps there was an element of simply longing for his own lost youth in there, too.
I think Ennis sleeps with women to keep trying to prove to himself that he's not "queer." :-\ :(
Actually, that's part of why I think he's NOT bi. I'm bi myself, and raised really homophobic and rural, and, you know... I think that if Ennis really liked doing it with women, he would have managed to live as if he were straight. (Really, being bi... it's not that difficult to pretend to be straight. Soul-destroying to try to bury part of oneself, yes... but easier than it would be if an opposite-sex relationship simply didn't work.)
Is there a large difference between "fulfilling societal norms" and "proving his masculinity," especially in Wyoming in 1963?
So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it. Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress? Does he actually enjoy it? If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack? I imagine the answer would come back "both."
Maybe the "longing" Annie observed in the older cowboy in the bar wasn't actually desire for the boys shootin' pool. Maybe that longing was actually for a lost love. Perhaps watching those young cowboys brought back memories of a relationship in his own past, when he, himself, was as young as the boys he was watching when Annie noticed him. Perhaps there was an element of simply longing for his own lost youth in there, too.This is a very poignant speculation, and shows good insight into the multiple nuances of the human character.
But now I see your point--is he lying to Jack, as Jack is lying to him about the ranch foreman's wife? Interesting possibility, and not one I'd thought of before.Of course, the potential ambiguity of this detail does not exist in the film adaptation. I wonder how different the movie might have been if Cassie had been left out, and the waitress only existed, like in the story, as a passing and possibly ambivalent reference by Ennis?
Yes, I think there is, though maybe it's a question of "proving it to whom?" If by "proving his masculinity" you mean "to himself," I think that requires a level of sophistication and self-awareness--not to say education--that I think Ennis lacks. I never bring my copy of the story with me to work (Lord, it's been months since I last wrote that statement! ;D ), but I think I remember that in the blurb on the jacket it says that Ennis and Jack marry women and father children "because that's what cowboys do." That's what people do in Wyoming--and probably anywhere else in small-town America--in 1963, and probably still do in a lot of places today.
Nice to see you around on a thread that makes you feel the need of your book, Jeff! :D
Anyway, are you saying Ennis isn't capable of needing to prove anything to himself ever -- or just in regard to getting married? If it's the latter, I agree; I think he gets married sort of automatically, because that's what's expected of him. Otherwise, though, he spends a lot of time trying to prove to himself that he "ain't queer." He's concerned about keeping up appearances, too, but it's his own self-image that's most at stake, even if he didn't hear that concept from Dr. Phil.
As for whether he sleeps with Cassie, remember that according to the timeline of the movie, anyway, they've been together for something like FOUR F'IN YEARS. If they hadn't slept together by then, I think what Cassie would have said in the bus station is, "Oh, I got you about three and a half years ago, Ennis Del Mar." That is, I think she'd early on have begun to wonder what's up, at the very least, most likely would have figured it out pretty quickly and in any case probably would have been out the door long ago.
But sleeping with Cassie or Alma and really WANTING to sleep with Cassie or Alma are two different things. He must have made it convincing enough, because neither woman seems eager to split up. But neither movie Ennis nor story Ennis seems very excited about the prospect of sleeping with women. I don't really believe story Ennis when he says, "I like doin it with women." At least, I don't think he likes beyond just the opportunity to, well, you know ...
This is a very poignant speculation, and shows good insight into the multiple nuances of the human character.
No offense intended to Mel, but I guess maybe I just have this gut feeling that "proving his masculinity" is too sophisticated a concept to apply to Ennis. I think he would more likely think just in terms of "doing the right thing," "doing the normal thing," "just doing what people just do"--that sort of thing. Of course, what he does might have the same practical effect as "proving his masculinity."
But, yeah, apparently he does spend a lot of time trying to convince himself that he ain't queer.
And I've never quite made up my mind how important is the detail that Ennis apparently preferred to "do it" with Alma the same way he, of necessity ;D , "did it" with Jack.
I have my story book at work (in my briefcase, actually) thank you very much . . . and this comment of Jeff's seemed like a good opportunity to ask for y'all's insight into another line of Ennis's from the motel - which is when he says to Jack, right before he relates the story of Earl & Rich, the following: "Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you see around sometimes." This is immediately followed by the comment, "And I don't want a be dead." Just after the Earl & Rich story, when Jack bitches about the time between their seeing one another, Ennis asks Jack this question: "Shit. I been lookin at people on the street. This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"
So what's my point/question? What precisely does Ennis mean by saying he doesn't want to be like them guys? I always read this as meaning he doesn't want to be/appear queer. But then when he asks Jack if this happens to other people (and what is "this" to him? Their sexual relationship? Their LOVE, that we're not convinced he even knows about/is convinced about himself at this point? If he's not really sophisticated, then is it just the plain electric nature of their relationship [Ms. P's descriptor intentional]?), it makes me doubt he was referring to guys who appear queer. By his question to Jack, he's saying he's looking on the street for other folks engaged in a strange relationship, and not seeing it. So his earlier comment means what? That he doesn't want to be childless and unmarried, e.g. a "deviation" from the local social norm - but not rising to the level of "queer"?
Sorry to keep jumping in and out today, gang. What do we do with the fact that Story Ennis says to Jack he likes doin it with women? Is that just Ennis's way of arguing to himself that he's not "queer"? Or is it about making babies - e.g., he stopped sleeping with Alma when she wanted him to use protection (see also Ennis's desire to have a son - was this discussed above or in another thread?). But then. like Alma thought, what Ennis liked to do didn't make too many babies. As to the story, I believe that Ennis is actually sleeping with "the waitress" later in the story, and I don't believe Jack when he says he's having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife. I realize, however, that my trust in Story Ennis could be misplaced, as noted by Ms. P herself when she writes that the sparks flew up "with their truths and lies . . . " plural of course.
So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it. Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress? Does he actually enjoy it? If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack? I imagine the answer would come back "both."
Jumping back here with you...
Whether Ennis likes to sleep with women: nobody has quoted the whole sentence yet:
I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this.
I have an odd comparison: I like green salad, but hell, it's nothing like pizza. Means I don't have anything against green salad, I don't mind eating it and enjoy it to a certain extent. I'm okay with it. But I'm totally enthusiastic about pizza. I love pizza. If I had to choose, there's no question I'd take the pizza over the salad.
In the end, I'm indifferent about green salad. I could do without it, but like it enough to eat it (because it's healthy).
I think Ennis was indifferent about sleeping with women. Could have done without it, but liked it enough to do it, because a) it's what was expected from him and b) it's not so lonley as his right hand.
I think b) is an important point to Ennis. And I don't talk exclusively about the sexual aspect, but also about the social aspect of having sex with another person: being close to someone, feeling the other person, touching and being touched.
Being connected to another person - even if it is only for bodily aspects and even if it is not the right person - it's better than nothing anyway. Humans are social animals. Ennis was alone most of his life. He was able to stand it because he was less social and more of a loner than many people are. But this doesn't mean he had no social needs at all. Remember that pause, when Alma says "not so lonley like you were raised. You don't want it so lonley, do you?" (when she wants to move to Riverton). You can see her remark has struck a chord in him. Makes me sad every time.
About their truths and lies:
I don't think this sentence is (only) in regard to the afore conversation. I think it's meant more general: what they said to each other and more important what they didn't say. Their pretending. Pretending they weren't lovers.
In regard to the afore conversation Ennis could have been lying about putting the blocks to the waitress, or about her having problems he didn't want. I think he was the one with the problems (and maybe she didn't want them).
I also have argued a social angle on his connection with Jack, e.g. their high-time supper by the fire, and Ennis's feelings he'd never had such a good time - an interaction with Jack like he'd never had with Alma. Why not? He knew before he went up the mountain he was going to marry her when he got down. Was it mostly because he was gay and just had a better social time with a man? Was it because Alma was really no fun, or less fun than Jack? Probably a bit of both - he was attracted to him, deep down, and also attracted to Jack socially, and they were both hungry for something that really went beyond sex, a connection neither of them had perhaps ever had in their entire lives.
Yeah, I think the green salad/pizza analogy is a good one, P!
One nit to pick with the end of your argument, however: Alma's lines regarding loneliness were from the film.
of course, much of the story's sadness comes from the tragic irony that when Ennis found the one person who could satisfy all his desires, his cultural imperatives, both in the community and in his own head, instilled by his father (back to the tire-iron wielding Inner Parent) stopped him from embracing the only connection left that could satisfy.
From an optimistic perspective, the story sucks. It's a ringing, bitter condemnation of either or both of (a) society's homophobia; and/or (b) Ennis's own lack of strength. At the same time, it's a pretty amazing depiction of a deep, but flawed, love between two people, and a short, sharp, insightful analysis of human character. The point is, Ennis is screwed at the end of the story, emotionally, and I don't see any redemption coming his way.
Yep.
(BTW, mlewis, you don't know this about me, but I can get really nasty when BBM fanfic comes up, so I try to avoid talking about it in this thread.)
Yep.Agreed. Tragedy is the highest form of drama (or storytelling) per Aristotle, right? As a BRIEF comment on fanfic, I dipped my toe in back during the height of my BBM obsession because I JUST NEEDED MORE. Excepting Jeff W's great short stuff, I pay no attention now - I'd rather re-read the story and see what new insight I can glean.
But I think there's a heck of a lot more insight into human nature in that bleak story than in reams of happily-ever-after (fanfic or original fiction, BBM or completely unrelated) fantasies.
(BTW, mlewis, you don't know this about me, but I can get really nasty when BBM fanfic comes up, so I try to avoid talking about it in this thread.)
Is that why you did not reply to my post way back there, Mel, because I am a reader of fanfic? ???
Given the amount of fanfiction written of the variety where Ennis gets to find someone, and live "happily ever after" in a melancholy way, kind of a bittersweet trance of a life Jack created for Ennis by Jack's "sacrificial" death, it's no wonder to me that so many people feel put off by the story after they fall in love with the film. From an optimistic perspective, the story sucks. It's a ringing, bitter condemnation of either or both of (a) society's homophobia; and/or (b) Ennis's own lack of strength. At the same time, it's a pretty amazing depiction of a deep, but flawed, love between two people, and a short, sharp, insightful analysis of human character. The point is, Ennis is screwed at the end of the story, emotionally, and I don't see any redemption coming his way.
The film, of course, gives us the hope that his experience with Jack will open him up to other loves in his life (e.g., attending Jr.'s wedding). I see my own prejudices, founded in the story, making my way into the interpretation of the end of the film. I certainly DON'T believe Film Ennis EVER finds another man, let alone a Jack replacement! I think he only gets bittersweet solace from the resolve not to let work get in the way of his loves anymore.
Sorry, now I'm the one going on about the film. Point is, the story is arguably unrelentingly bleak; the film gives some light to Ennis's tragedy.
BTW, I'm on my non-Mac machine here at work and I can't fiqure out how to spell check this thing! If someone could let me know how. .
Jumping back here with you...
Whether Ennis likes to sleep with women: nobody has quoted the whole sentence yet:
I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this.
I have an odd comparison: I like green salad, but hell, it's nothing like pizza. Means I don't have anything against green salad, I don't mind eating it and enjoy it to a certain extent. I'm okay with it. But I'm totally enthusiastic about pizza. I love pizza. If I had to choose, there's no question I'd take the pizza over the salad.
In the end, I'm indifferent about green salad. I could do without it, but like it enough to eat it (because it's healthy).
I think Ennis was indifferent about sleeping with women. Could have done without it, but liked it enough to do it, because a) it's what was expected from him and b) it's not so lonley as his right hand.
I think b) is an important point to Ennis. And I don't talk exclusively about the sexual aspect, but also about the social aspect of having sex with another person: being close to someone, feeling the other person, touching and being touched. Being connected to another person - even if it is only for bodily aspects and even if it is not the right person - it's better than nothing anyway. Humans are social animals. Ennis was alone most of his life. He was able to stand it because he was less social and more of a loner than many people are. But this doesn't mean he had no social needs at all. Remember that pause, when Alma says "not so lonley like you were raised. You don't want it so lonley, do you?" (when she wants to move to Riverton). You can see her remark has struck a chord in him. Makes me sad every time.
About their truths and lies:
I don't think this sentence is (only) in regard to the afore conversation. I think it's meant more general: what they said to each other and more important what they didn't say. Their pretending. Pretending they weren't lovers.
In regard to the afore conversation Ennis could have been lying about putting the blocks to the waitress, or about her having problems he didn't want. I think he was the one with the problems (and maybe she didn't want them).
he isn't as sad a figure to me. I know men like that...and half of them live that way because they know nothing else and WANT nothing else. It is hard for most of us to comprehend that. That there are people who are not worried about material goods or comfort. That live in the moment. I think Ennis was one of those people.
He had Jack. and never lost him, really. To love another person like that...how many of us would give anything to have had that in their life?
Sorry to keep jumping in and out today, gang. What do we do with the fact that Story Ennis says to Jack he likes doin it with women? Is that just Ennis's way of arguing to himself that he's not "queer"? Or is it about making babies - e.g., he stopped sleeping with Alma when she wanted him to use protection (see also Ennis's desire to have a son - was this discussed above or in another thread?). But then. like Alma thought, what Ennis liked to do didn't make too many babies. As to the story, I believe that Ennis is actually sleeping with "the waitress" later in the story, and I don't believe Jack when he says he's having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife. I realize, however, that my trust in Story Ennis could be misplaced, as noted by Ms. P herself when she writes that the sparks flew up "with their truths and lies . . . " plural of course.
So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it. Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress? Does he actually enjoy it? If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack? I imagine the answer would come back "both."
Well here I will deposit my two cents: I have bolded part of your quote there Mel, that is the part I am addressing.... To say that is does not matter whether they kissed on the mountain or not during their summer together, I can't agree with that. I think it is the kissing that expresses the love. without the kissing, the unspoken love that Jack has for Ennis is not expressed. :o
I'm not saying that story Jack and Ennis did kiss that summer, I am just saying that whether they did or not does matter very much
From an optimistic perspective, the story sucks. It's a ringing, bitter condemnation of either or both of (a) society's homophobia;
ok we don't know that they stopped having sex totally after that one scene...(from the movie)...and I know if I told my husband in the middle of proceedings to slap on a condom after x number of years?? He would be very very unhappy...the time for THAT discussion was NOT at that moment. Alma was looking for an excuse to NOT have sex...(anyone remember when the pill came out? Why wasn't Alma on it if she was so concerned?)
Jess, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. But to the extent I think Ennis is a sad figure, it has nothing to do with him being poor or having a spartan lifestyle. In fact, one of many things I love about BBM is that we AREN'T asked to feel sorry for people because they're uneducated or poor. In most movies, characters' economic status is central to our understanding of them, and if a character starts out poor, their path to achieving economic success constitutes at least part of the plot. Wealth = happy ending. BBM is refreshing because it DOESN'T do that.
No, I think Ennis is a sad figure because his own internal conflicts keep him from grabbing his one chance at happiness. Even when Jack is alive, Ennis can't fully enjoy the relationship because of his guilt and shame, and in the end he's left alone, grieving, knowing he blew it.
Yes. But it's kind of a glass half full/half empty situation, right? Of course, he was lucky to have what he did with Jack (half full). But they didn't get to live happily ever after together (half empty).
but Katherine...if he had woken up on fresh linen sheets in his own ranch house...ate a good stout breakfast cooked by the maid...you wouldn't be so tore up about him being 'alone'
i guess Ennis' econimic state is like salt rubbed continuously to an open wound. i talked my 2 best buddies to watch the movies and one of them said in the end of the movie..trailer scene, "ooh.. how lonely"
living in a community where family is ALWAYS together, with large Balinese compounds, we can only imagine how it feels for Ennis having lost his other half and ends up downsizing his world to a trailer in a remote area.
social service pays for poor people...can't believe they could afford condoms but not a trip to the clinic. especially with young kids...you are in there all the time any way...
Yes, Jeff, I think maybe she's talking about getting a house in town and envisions Ennis working in town, say at the power company. He hates working on the highway crew, and wants to get another job at a ranch, which would require them to move. So, apparently they compromise, staying at the rental apartment instead of leasing a house.
Okay, I was single at that time in the story, and, yup, you could get birth control pills at the clinic for a nominal fee, say $5 a month.
ok we don't know that they stopped having sex totally after that one scene...(from the movie)...and I know if I told my husband in the middle of proceedings to slap on a condom after x number of years?? He would be very very unhappy...the time for THAT discussion was NOT at that moment. Alma was looking for an excuse to NOT have sex...(anyone remember when the pill came out? Why wasn't Alma on it if she was so concerned?)
Lately another sentece in the short story hit me (motel scene):
"I didn't know where the hell you was," said Ennis. "Four years. I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
Ennis was about to give up on Jack. In the reverse, it means, that he has not given up on him (yet). He always hoped during these four years to see Jack again, always waited.
Another offhand revelation for the reader.
And quite a revelation for Ennis, even when storyEnnis is more vocal than movieEnnis.
The first quoted sentence with its emphasis leads me to another question/speculation: did storyEnnis try (even half-heartedly) to find Jack? Maybe asking around a little, in a casual, alongside manner, among travelling ranch hands/the rodeo curcuit (when an oppurtunity provided)?
He wasn't going to try to contact Jack over the next four years, because he waited for and needed Jack to take the lead. just mho.
Lately another sentece in the short story hit me (motel scene):
"I didn't know where the hell you was," said Ennis. "Four years. I about give up on you. I figured you was sore about that punch."
Story Ennis had a perfectly good source of information about Jack, namely that he knew Jack's parents lived in Lightning Flat. If he'd really wanted to find him, he could have asked them to tell Jack to get in touch.
And the movie reinforced that with Ennis's parting words to Jack, "Well, I guess I'll see you around, huh."
And the "what if we have to work for Aguirre agin
He never thought he'd not see Jack again.
Thats why I am so convinced that for Ennis it was Jacks reaction to leaving and the fight and its aftermath that changed everythig for Ennis.
He wasn't going to try to contact Jack over the next four years, because he waited for and needed Jack to take the lead. just mho.
I agree, marlb42. Clearly Ennis would have loved to see Jack at anytime during those four years: we see him pining, we see him overjoyed by the postcard and by Jack's appearance. But there's no way he could have taken the initiative, at that point, to look up Jack's parents in Lightning Flat. It just isn't in his personality. His homophobia wouldn't let him, and he would be terrified of rejection.
At the end of the movie, when he finally visits LF and tacitly acknowledges his relationship with Jack, it's a huge step for him. Sort of a mini coming out.
As for how he acts at their parting in Signal, to me his behavior and body language scream, "Do something, Jack! Say something to keep this from happening!" But he doesn't know how to say that out loud.
That line in the story made two points to me. First, it's a surprise indication that we haven't been told everything going on in Ennis's mind during those four years. If you took the description of Ennis's domestic life at face value, you might assume that the relationship on the mountain was some kind of anomaly. But it wasn't.
And the other thing that struck me in this section, again, was that Jack wasn't blameless in the separation... or at least that Ennis blamed Jack, at least in part. (There's another part where Ennis pointedly doesn't ask Jack whose fault the four-year separation was, as if it was Jack's fault, at least as far as Ennis sees it.) And that adds to the sense that Jack had tried to move on, a sense that is reinforced by the comment that Jack had been "riding more than bulls"... which is one reason why the discovery at the shirts at the end is such a surprise emotional blow.
I don't know what story-Ennis did. Somehow I can't picture Ennis asking people about Jack. And it makes me wonder exactly what he expected Jack to do -- Ennis didn't go back to Aguirre that next summer, he had married, his folks were dead -- how hard did Ennis expect Jack to look?(emphasis mine)
Yes, I got the same feeling from the movie. We also see Ennis yearn for Jack these four years, we are shown his lonliness despite Alma+daughters.Good points.
But like Mel already said, we have nothing of this in the story. Proulx describes Ennis' domestic life within those four years without a thought of Jack (but maybe another small hint with her choice of words: Ennis favoured the little appartment "because it could be left at any time.").
Good points.
A couple other indications in the story:
When right after the separation Ennis felt "like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at at time" and "He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off." That "long time" makes it sound, to me, like he was feeling that bad well into his married life.
And then, "he rolled her over. Did quickly what she hated."
Proulx never comes out and says "Ennis lay on the bed, thinking about how wonderful it was to make love to Jack, and went through the motions of having sex with Alma anyway." She implies that by describing sex with Alma in a way that isn't particularly erotic, and then lets the reader make the connection when Ennis flips Alma over.
It's like being slammed, over and over, with the realization that these weren't just two guys who enjoyed having sex with one another -- this was an incredibly profound love. And we don't learn the depth of it until Jack's deadWhile I agree that we should have learnt about the depth of their love, it is only understandable to a point anticipating that only death could separate the two. Even so it was death that made their love 'uttered' (although a little too late), being free to love and be loved in return
I've noticed that, since this topic was posted, I add more postscripts to my PMs, emails, and letters. And I usually try to put in something that throws the reader for a loop!!
I think this is a clue:
There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.
On the mountain, they are suspended above the "ordinary affairs" of society, distant from "tameness." In other words, they're in the wild, in nature, removed from society's homophobia. The passage has an unworldly, almost heaven-like sound to it: flying, euphoric, looking down on a hawk ...
And then, when they left:
As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall.
He's falling from their place above the world, back to society's "ordinary affairs" and homophobia, and the process is irreversible.
or, if all else fails, hide behind your hat and be silent.
Is Jack a cowboy then ;)?
This topic started by our absent FRiend Mel is a perfectly good place to discuss this!! As so many things are, this is ambiguous in the story, but I don't think AP meant to say they said these things during sex. However, they are significant because they were the ONLY things said in reference to the sex: "...but saying not a goddamed thing except once Ennis said, 'I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with "Me neither. A one-shot-thing. Nobody's business but ours.'"
Clancypants is very perceptive and has great insight, but you have to take anybody's interpretation with a grain of salt because we all apply our personal agendas to the story.
In the movie, Ennis was much more hesitant and reticent, taking his cue from Jack IMO. In the story they were more equals.
I'm going to put one totally irrelevant, off-topic post here in the Open Forum, for the sole purpose of bumping my post count by one..........
He had wanted to be a sophomore, felt the word carried a kind of distinction,
Here's a sentence that is hitting me hard today:
Poor Ennis, didn't get to be a sophomore because the transmission went on the pickup truck, and he was pitched into ranch work. Where I went to school, the word sophomore carried no distinction whatsoever, because students entered high school in the 10th grade, so there were no freshmen. Sophomores were at the low end of the totem pole.
Ennis wanted the softness of words and study and learning, but what he got was hard work and privation. :(
While Ennis is busy worrying about the bad times to come, Jack is enjoying the present -- a sky so "boneless blue" that he "might drown looking up." Which later, of course, he does. :'(
I am now trying to reconcile or resolve Ennis running 'full throttle...money spending' and the story being at least in part about poverty. I guess I am not seeing a lot of evidence that Ennis (story or movie) is a big spender. Story!Jack, on the other hand, gradually enjoys a higher standard of living, especially after LD dies, and he gets his vague managerial . And we see Movie!Jack having nicer trucks and camping gear as time progresses.
I think this is a fine place for your offhand revelation, Lynne! Story Ennis could be impulsive and spend money when he wanted something, and story Ennis could loll naked on a bed at the Siesta Motel talking to his lover for over an hour, not like movie Ennis. For the movie, I think Heath, Ang, and the scriptwriters emphasized the differences in the two men because, well, opposites attract and it works well with the yin/yang theme. But Annie Proulx's depiction of the men is more subtle. She portrayed them more as two kindred spirits against the world whereas in the movie they are more like two different people who fall in love despite their differences.
Thanks, FriendLee. I guess I am still seeing inconsistencies in StoryEnnis' money spending. They did splurge on the hotel Siesta, and he did quit his jobs in the old days to be with Jack. But the postcard at the end was only 30 cents and one was enough and he didn't need more than he had when Alma, Jr. visited. Maybe the impulsive spending was tempered with age, as evidenced by him stressing his child support payments and being unable to just quit the jobs, like in the old days. I see very few examples, tho, of early Ennis spending money. After all, he worked weekends at a ranch when he was on the road crew to be able to keep his horses. I guess the horses could be considered a luxury. I just don't see that he had much.
Katherine asked this question ages ago, when we were discussing the brief reference to Jack's post-divorce drive ("twelve hundred miles for nothing"):QuoteTell me, though, why did that particular line devastate you for a week? You mean because you were haunted by the image of Jack driving all that way, full of hope, for nothing?
And I know this sounds like a book-club question, but: What do you suppose Annie's reasoning was, from a storytelling perspective, for mentioning things like the phone call and the punch in such a SEEMINGLY offhand way, long after their actual occurence?
I know it's taken me a long time to answer the question. Not four f'ing years, but long enough.
My first response is: you know, that isn't the only time in the story that important information, particularly important emotional information, comes out in an off-hand kind of way, at the end of a sentence or a paragraph that, at first glance, appears to be about something else.
The first example is in the prologue, in the first paragraph:
"...Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream."
Here's this entire paragraph that's about -- what? Rural poverty, the loss of Western land to developers, and the lifestyle of a guy who's more than a little rough around the edges, peeing in the sink, hanging his clothes from a nail or something? It's not just unromantic -- it's anti-romantic.
And then, at the end of the paragraph, there's that little half-sentence. ...he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream. And there, almost hidden at the end of run-on sentences and bleak descriptions, is the most important detail in the entire prologue.
It's... well, it's a surprise, I guess. Here I, the reader, have been lulled into thinking that I understand this character and his situation, and then suddenly, in half a sentence, everything I understood is turned on its head. It's not the way I would structure, say, a scientific argument, but I think there's something powerful about forcing a sudden change in perception. It's like... I don't know, like a Zen koan, or like suddenly waking up. It draws attention to the detail that's out of place.
And it's a particularly appropriate structure for characterizing Ennis. I mean, if you didn't pay that close attention to Ennis, you might see a guy who works hard, has earned enough respect to be responsible for the keys to the ranch, but who hasn't earned enough money to own a ranch himself. And a guy who... well, he doesn't quite seem the cocktail party type, does he? But the surface appearances don't even begin to tell the story of Ennis del Mar, and the real story slips out only at the end, only if you're paying attention.
And that's not the only time that the end of a sentence or paragraph contains something unexpected, something apparently unrelated, a kind of revelation:
"They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddamn word except once Ennis said, 'I'm not no queer,' and Jack jumped in with 'Me neither. A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours.'"
"Years on years they worked their way through the high meadows and mountain drainages...[snip]...but never returning to Brokeback."
The whole paragraph in which Ennis and Jack talk about other affairs, but which ends with:
"Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies."
"Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back marked DECEASED."
And the sentence I was thinking about, right after it:
"He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."
I guess the structure of the whole story also hides the main point until the end. Lots of people have pointed out that, after the reunion at least, Jack and Ennis seem to talk about their attraction to each other a lot:
"'Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback that makes it so goddamn good.'"
"'Sure as hell seem in one piece to me...'"
"'...I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you.'"
"'That's one a the two things I need right now...'"
But you know what? All that time, they're talking about sex. So they seem to accept the sex, and unlike on the mountain, they even talk about it.
But the emotional depth of the relationship isn't apparent... until the flashback to the dozy embrace.
And then the offhand mention of the twelve hundred drive for nothing.
And then learning that Jack wanted his ashes spread on Brokeback Mountain, that it was "his place."
And then Old Man Twist's revelation that Jack had talked about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, at least until that last visit.
And then the description of the punch, mixed together with the discovery of the shirts.
It's like being slammed, over and over, with the realization that these weren't just two guys who enjoyed having sex with one another -- this was an incredibly profound love. And we don't learn the depth of it until Jack's dead.
I know enough about the short story form to know about O. Henry's stories, and about the way the plot always goes off in an unexpected direction at the end. I guess, in a way, Brokeback Mountain follows that form. But it isn't Jack's death that's the surprise, or at least, it isn't the biggest surprise. It's the discovery of the love we had missed noticing all along. Love, not just sex -- that's the twist.
And I think the whole story structure is part of the characterization of Ennis, as well. We're never allowed too deeply into Ennis's mind. We're allowed to see some of the events, and we're allowed to see the sex. But the love... the details that point to it are mentioned in offhand comments, as if they are pushed out of mind, until Jack's dead and the realization all comes together.
And then, going back and reading the story again, all those details that add up to the love start to stand out. Pawing the white out of the moon. The headlong, irreversible fall. Trying to puke in the whirling snow. "Little darlin." "This ain't no little thing that's happenin here." Reading the story for a second time is like dreaming with Ennis.
And those shirts were there, all along, in the second sentence of the story.
I first watched BBM two weeks ago which was the first week of January 2012. It was the best movie ever made. Below are a few of the things I have noticed about the movie and would love to discuss.True, I'm sure he knew from an early age that he was different. In the story, there is a bit more about his brother. He got tired of being bullied by his brother, so he beat him up one day, on the recommendation of his tyrant of a father.
1. Ennis never talks about his siblings after the beginning of the movie. Why do you think he never mentions them again? I think they were probably homophobic like his father and Ennis wanted nothing much to do with them. Ennis always new he was gay.
2. In the first scene Ennis carries a paper bag filled with his clothes which were his only possessions. At the end of the movie Jack's mom puts the infamous shirts in a paper bag. Any significance of the paper bags? Poverty?Yes, and it's related in a way to his comment that "if you don't have nothing, you don't need nothing" (when his daughter told him he needed more furniture). It's also related to his expectations in life, which were not high. It also suggests his vulnerability...a paper bag does not protect its contents well.
3. When Ennis and Jack first start to herd the sheep up the mountain on horseback Jack is holding a baby lamb in his arms and looks back at Ennis. Ennis has his lamb wrapped up in a blanket and it rode on the side of the horse. I see this as Jack wearing his emotions out in the open and Ennis burying his inside.I never noticed that before Kittycat. You are undoubtedly right!
4. At Jack's parents house Ennis allows himself to open up. He talks a lot. Although he is heartbroken about Jack's death he seems to be relaxed around Jack's parents. (Jack's mom anyway). He says "On no ma'am I could not eat any cake right now. Just coffee for me" and "You don't know how bad I feel about Jack. Me and Jack knew each other for a long time. We were very close." "Yes ma'am I would like that very much" when asked to see Jack's room upstairs. I think he was just as comfortable talking to Jack's mom as he was talking to his own daughter(s). Maybe more. I definitely see him and Jack's mom developing a great relationship over the years. Maybe Jack's father will die soon.One would hope Old Man Twist would keel over just from all the bile and bitterness that have built up within him.
5. Windows obviously have something to do with the story. But what? I can't figure it out. Any thoughts?Perhaps a feeling of being on the outside looking in, as Ennis said he looked at all the people on the pavement and wondered if "they knew". Windows and mirrors give a feeling of detachment and a barrier between the person and life.
6. While Jack is standing on a combine doing a sales pitch a man comes into the office and asks Jack's father-in-law, "Is that the cowboy who used to rides bulls?" The father- in-law replies "he tried to". Jack had a reputation during his bull riding days of being gay and that man might have known. He probably told the father-in-law and they both plotted to have Jack killed. Even though the father-in-law died before Jack I think he had something to do with his death. When Lurleen is describing Jack's death to Ennis I find it interesting that she describes every wretched second of it in detail. "He was changing a tire.... drowned in his own blood before anyone found him", etc. As if that was what she was instructed to say about Jack's death. Sounds too scripted. Did she know a deep dark secret about Jack's death? I know it's kind of morbid. Just an observation.There's been quite a lot of speculation about this. The movie is ambiguous, but the story makes it more clear that she was covering up the real reason of death.
7. When Jack is desperately looking for his blue parka Lurleen is ignoring his concern about the parka and talks about other things. Maybe she hid the parka just to annoy Jack. She knew having to look for it would delay his trip to see the love of his life.Maybe, but I think it's more likely that Jack misplaced it since he was never the organized type of person.
8. Fishing. Fishing. Fishing. Ennis told Alma that they were fishing buddies. He took his fishing gear with him on each trip. Why did they never fish? There were many streams, rivers and lakes they could have fished in. Who doesn't love fresh fish? Did they hate their real lives that much? Did they did not want to even bring up fishing because they had talked to their wives about fishing?They didn't fish, I think, because fishing is a time-consuming activity and they wanted to spend the time doing . . . other things. Plus, they liked to eat the ritual foods that they had had on Brokeback Mountain, potatoes, elk, maybe even beans.
9. While arguing with Jack once about having a life together Ennis sarcastically says, "Lets get Alma and Lurleen to adopt my girls and then we could be free to live a life together and do what we want." Maybe Ennis fantasized about that often. Maybe Ennis was subconsciously sorry he even married Alma that November after Brokeback. When Ennis shed a tear at the divorce I think he was more upset about having to pay child support. This would financially keep him from seeing Jack as often as he wanted.Sounds likely. I think Ennis' outburst had to do with Alma giving up the girls so Lureen and Jack could adopt them and Ennis and Jack could live together without him having to abandon his daughters. That was a highly unlikely scenario.
10. When Ennis read that Jack had died he immediately went to the phone booth across the street to call Lurleen. How did he know the number? Did he have it memorized? Did he carry it with him in his wallet? I thought that it was very touching that he had Jack's number all this time but could never call Jack.I'm not sure how much time passed between the "deceased" postcard and the call to Lureen. It could have been a while.
I see Jack as being the "male" and Ennis being the "female" in the relationship. However the story shows that there really were no "roles". They loved each other unconditionally and would do anything for one another. You see Jack doing Ennis's laundry. You see Ennis diligently cooking for Jack. Ennis helped Jack carry the large log and offered to trade places with him to sleep with the sheep. Ennis shot the elk because the groceries were destroyed and Jack wanted to eat some meat. Jack ran over to Ennis to comfort him when he came to the camp with a bleeding head. Jack took off his bandana and dipped it in hot water to help clean the wound, etc.Amen, kittycat.
The beauty of the story is that love has no bounds. Love cannot be conformed to "roles". Love cannot be restricted to the way society says it has to be. Aquirre, Jack's father-in-law and Jack's father lived their lives strictly as "society" told them to live. Without an original thought. Without an open mind. Were they happy? Did you once see a smile on their faces? Were they three people you would like to hang out with?
Isn't this a wonderful thread started by our old friend nakymaton? I miss him/her.
they liked to eat the ritual foods that they had had on Brokeback Mountain, potatoes, elk, maybe even beans
Yes, I met her but I was in the habit, back in the day, of protecting her privacy since she worked in a very strictly gendered profession.
Front-RangerMy DVD (English) has that whole exchange....but I didn't catch it until probably a dozen viewings. And only with earbuds in and the volume turned AAAALLLLL the way up. And because of a discussion on one of these threads about what they were saying.
Russian dubbing would make it pretty clear with beans!
In the "You're late" scene Ennis says: "Look, what I got here" or smth like that. His further speech is too silent to hear, but in russian version there's the whole dialogue between them: "— Look, what I got here! — Is that beans you've brought?! — Yes, beans themselves! I'd like to cook it just like earlier days".
So be sure, Front-Ranger, the did cook beans :-P
That is one of the made-up phrases (and even dialogues like the upper example) our dubbers have added.
P.S. I used translator, but I haven't found a proper word (a word that denotes something made-up what interpreter adds to the text on his own)