Good topic, Amanda! I actually think there is a subcontext in the scene of the fundraising dance, in the interaction between LaShawn and Lureen.
I'm going to open up a *really* broad topic here. But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately. I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it. She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc. This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality.
So, I just wonder how people feel the movie treats the subject of female sexuality (again I know this is a big topic) when it comes to the main female characters in the film. Lureen, Alma, Cassie, and Alma Jr. in the last scene.
I'll start with some "starter" questions/ obervations (beginning with my Lureen observation above).
Alma:
I think one of the more disturbing aspects of the story and film with regard to this topic is Ennis's persistence in having sex with Alma in "positions" that she does not like. As much as I love Ennis, this is a really upsetting thing for me to deal with/ think about. As much as I sympathize with his dilemma and his own pain, I think the way he treats Alma in bed is one of the worst aspects of his character. And I don't recall this topic being hashed out in great depth too often. So, I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this.
Cassie:
Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold. She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too). But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how. And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.
Alma Jr.:
I always feel so sad at the end of the movie that Alma Jr. is getting married so young to a "roughneck". I know I'm supposed to feel happy that she's in love, etc. But, honestly, I feel sorry for her. I feel like she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere. It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her. What's up with that?
And, this is a sort of selfish question about this topic for me... in a movie that's so much about exploring the nuances of the love between two men and gay male sexuality and the societal pressures put on those relationships (not just Jack and Ennis's but also Earl and Rich and even Randall in his situation), why is there seemingly no hint about gay female sexuality?
I apologize if this is repeating what was said in another thread...
I'd be surprised if Ennis, in the early years of their marriage, knew she hated anal sex. We see her contorted face, he doesn't. And I'd guess there'd have been no more conversation about sex between the two of them at that point in the marriage than there was between story Ennis and Jack their first summer.
I think it's telling that in the second sexual encounter between them that we see, Ennis doesn't even try to flip Alma over. She's apparently made her feelings clear by then. Which is consistent with the increasing attempts at directness and assertiveness she shows in other scenes.
Cassie: Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold. She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too). But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how. And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.
(if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate).
I'm sort of surprised that Cassie put up with Ennis for so long (if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate). She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested in their relationship that he doesn't mention it to his best friend, when he finally does discuss her sounds pretty indifferent, doesn't talk (unlike Carl!) and presumably isn't the greatest in bed. And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!Yes, but girls don't fall in love with fun, Katherine. (What's the matter with us??!)
If you'd been to that part of Wyoming, (as I recall you've been to Idaho, which is similar) you'd know why Cassie puts up with Ennis for five effen years. Marriageable guys are few and far between; in fact PEOPLE are few and far between (altho there's gettin to be a lot of roughnecks around there, but they're sequestered away on mancamps, LOL!)
Well, when I was in Sun Valley/Ketchum last, I remember there bein a lot of cokeheads!!
She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested...
And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!
...and [Ennis] presumably isn't the greatest in bed.
Alma:
Oh my, poor Alma. She was so much a product of her time and place. A victim to that specific society as much as Ennis and Jack (more than Cassie and Lureen).
Very long ago we discussed her background, her (assumed) upbringing and the fact that she was downright "trained" to be the woman and wife she was. I believe she simply had not much awareness and therefore no high expectations in regard to her own sexuality and their sex life. Women were trained to obey their husbands, in daily life as well as in the bedroom. And so she let him do what she hated.
I also agree with you about Ennis. As much as I love him - this is too much. It's truly the only thing I hold against him. The fact that he was gay is an explantaion, but in no way an excuse. The only thing that can be said to his credit is (again) their time and upbringings. He was also raised in the believe that men had every right to do what they wanted with their wifes. Even if this was never explicit stated to him (in regard to sex), it was just how the world was, it was 'natural' and a matter of fact.
That's a good question. My first thought was that it would have been "too much". But on the other side, Ang Lee is a master of subtle hints. He sure would have been able to work it into the movie just as a little, unobstrusive sidenote. Maybe he really did with the interaction between Lureen and LaShawn? I'm not decided about this.
And, I do think he was fully aware that [Alma] didn't like [being turned over]. This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise. For me it almost feels out of character for Ennis.
I love this thread & have a lot to say. But first: about why Cassie put up with Ennis?QuoteShe's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested...
Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?
The book makes it clear that Ennis makes Alma climax before turning her over — lending at least a bit of reciprocity and consideration to his character.
Interestingly, the film makes it clear that he doesn't. I wonder why this is.
What do you think about Alma Jr.? I feel she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.
Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love...
...only whether Kurt loves her. What's up with that?
And, I do think he was fully aware that [Alma] didn't like [being turned over]. This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise. It almost feels out of character for Ennis.
Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?
2) One thing we know about Cassie is that she's an aspiring nurse — therefore drawn to the idea of rehabilitating those who seem in need of healing, which Ennis certainly did!
3) She was probably infatuated with Ennis to a point that logic ("it's been X number of years") takes a backseat. And nothing keeps infatuation alive like mystery, which Ennis had in spades.
Alma sure seemed turned on by Ennis (even 11 years into their marriage and with all their problems)! So he must have been doing something right.
Why do you think it would be too much? I mean, this movie (on one of it's many levels) is about confronting the topic of sexuality- focused primarily on gay male sexuality, but heterosexual female sexuality is at least addressed in different ways (through the lense of several very different characters) and the topic of bisexuality in men can also be said to be at issue within the context of the film/ story. I think this leaves a bit of a skewed picture of female sexuality. Granted the range of the film is sort of narrow given the relatively small number of major characters.
It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her. What's up with that?
I'm in the "it would be too much" camp, partly for the reason you mention in your last sentence. Do we ever even see two women in the same scene together, aside from Alma and her daughters or Lureen and her mom? Oh yeah, Cassie and Alma Jr. But otherwise, there's no evidence that any of these women have ever even met any other women.I assume you're talking about the movie, since you say "scene." So, there's the two scenes with Lureen and LaShawn, which are very important scenes in my opinion. These were created by McMurtry and Ossana, I theorize, to flesh out the Texas Jack part of the story and setup his death and the final pronouncements of Lureen to Ennis. I think it was in the dialogue between Lureen and LaShawn that Lureen began to know that Jack was gay, when she found out the similarities between Jack and Randall.
I assume you're talking about the movie, since you say "scene."
So, there's the two scenes with Lureen and LaShawn, which are very important scenes in my opinion.
These were created by McMurtry and Ossana, I theorize, to flesh out the Texas Jack part of the story and setup his death and the final pronouncements of Lureen to Ennis. I think it was in the dialogue between Lureen and LaShawn that Lureen began to know that Jack was gay, when she found out the similarities between Jack and Randall.
Lureen might have been an only child, too...Well Goadra, I think that's pertinent because it helps account for her confidence (and relative audacity some would say ::) ::) ::)).
What is an issue of course, is Jack's baffling lack of attention. I agree that by the dance scene she may be in the process of putting pieces together, but is still basically in the dark (thus asking "Why . . . Jack?)
People tend to be hard on Lureen for some reason, as if not being primarily a homemaker means she had less of a heart. But she just wanted to be noticed and loved, like anybody else.
...It's interesting that other than Jack's suggestion in the motel with Ennis during the reunion, there's no real hint that Jack and Lureen contemplate divorce through the rest of the film. I think that's quite a big clue to something....
If Alma had divorced Ennis earlier, could it have made a difference in his acceptance of Jack? And likewise with Lureen - even though her & Jack were good friends it was not really an ideal marriage so maybe if she'd suggested a divorce it could have spurred Jack to try harder with Ennis?
I do find it odd that Lureen didn't express more dis-satisfaction with the relationship
Maybe she had affairs & the continuing marriage helped her cover?
A clue to Lureen covering for Jack? Do tell!
The film makes it pretty clear that Ennis was so scarred from his upbringing that no extenuating circumstances in his adulthood would bring him around. After his divorce, he still preferred not to even be seen with Jack.
I don't think the responsibility would be on the wives to set the men free to chase a dream their wives had no clue about, would it?
By today's standards it would be considered odd for a young wife to stand by her husband for so long after finding out he was gay . . .
Do you think she ever would have attempted to "cure" him from being gay/seeing Jack, eg by submitting to anal sex she is showing Ennis that he can "have the best of both worlds"?
It is a mystery to me why she took so long to get round to a divorce even given the trappings of the era . . .
....With all the ignorance surrounding homosexuality, that's a good possibility Nic. Have you ever seen Far From Heaven? If not, rent it! It's really pertinent and a fine film too...
I was pleased she took the job at the store, as it was something she could do off her own back, even if the prime reason was needing the income. I found Ennis lumbering her with the kids at work in the film very hard to take at first veiwing! >:(
... I see her becoming pregnant with Monroe's child as her completely having no choice but to follow the societal convention at the time. She seems quite plucky so I could have seen her as taking a more pro-active role in managing the store with Monroe, but no - she is relegated to the kitchen sink & I imagine becoming a stay-at-home mum for many more years. This may have been ok with her of course, but I interpret the fact she stood up for herself getting the job & then the divorce as indicators she became more independent & naturally would have liked to continue in that vein if it had been possible at the time. Especially as she had settled for Monroe - she would want something to "balance out" her compromise of accepting second best.
......After all, a lot of mothers today think the same way -- they opt to stay home with their children, even feminists with degrees and careers and good incomes and access to excellent child care. ...
[A wife/mother working outside the home] could even be considered faintly shameful . . . an indication that the husband wasn't capable of supporting the family himself.
....I always thought that the look he and Alma exchange over the broken jars is meant to feel significant. ...
I think this is part of what vexes Ennis, especially in the 'bucket kick' scene. Again, I don't think Alma has anything going on with Monroe here she's certainly not 'gussied up' in any way, nor particularly giddy about going to work. This is shown right after a J + E fishing trip, indicating to me that her resentment of this (channeled into passive-aggressive behavior relating to finances) is fraying the marriage.
in two scenes of marital conflict . . . ashes get spilled.
Love it... Atz!!
See my thread: If Lureen is lesbian too... please.
Hugs!!
The film makes them far more "real" or "fleshed-out" characters compared to the story, which usually glosses over the women very quickly.
Lureen as a lesbian is a bit over the top.
I'm going to open up a *really* broad topic here. But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately. I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it. She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc. This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality.
So, I just wonder how people feel the movie treats the subject of female sexuality (again I know this is a big topic) when it comes to the main female characters in the film. Lureen, Alma, Cassie, and Alma Jr. in the last scene.
I'll start with some "starter" questions/ obervations (beginning with my Lureen observation above).
Alma:
I think one of the more disturbing aspects of the story and film with regard to this topic is Ennis's persistence in having sex with Alma in "positions" that she does not like. As much as I love Ennis, this is a really upsetting thing for me to deal with/ think about. As much as I sympathize with his dilemma and his own pain, I think the way he treats Alma in bed is one of the worst aspects of his character. And I don't recall this topic being hashed out in great depth too often. So, I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this.
Cassie:
Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold. She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too). But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how. And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.
Alma Jr.:
I always feel so sad at the end of the movie that Alma Jr. is getting married so young to a "roughneck". I know I'm supposed to feel happy that she's in love, etc. But, honestly, I feel sorry for her. I feel like she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere. It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her. What's up with that?
And, this is a sort of selfish question about this topic for me... in a movie that's so much about exploring the nuances of the love between two men and gay male sexuality and the societal pressures put on those relationships (not just Jack and Ennis's but also Earl and Rich and even Randall in his situation), why is there seemingly no hint about gay female sexuality?
I agree with what you say, Amanda. When Alma has an interchange with Monroe right after the interchange with Ennis, she and we are meant to see the contrast between the brutish Ennis and the sympathetic Monroe. I don't think Monroe was considered to be much of a catch in Wyo. even though he was a successful merchant.
FR - why wouldn't Monroe be considered as a catch? I'd have thought mothers for miles around would be cueing him up at the church socials for their daughters ;D
The character of Monroe is played to be pretty transparent and straightforward — a stand-up (if comparatively boring) guy. And you can tell from his 'delayed' reaction to the fight at Thanksgiving that he's a little bit afraid of Ennis. So if he & Alma had had anything going on by the grocery store scene, it would have shown in the way Monroe greets Ennis: either a little guilty or a bit afraid.