BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Penthesilea on September 24, 2007, 11:41:37 am
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Happy Monday everyone :)
A little bit later than usual, but for most of you it's still before noon - and here we go with a brand-new TOTW.
This week, the suggestion for the TOTW came from our very own Amanda/atz75. Yay Amanda, thank you for your suggestion :D!
And here's the question at full length:
Did it seem like Jack was being responsive to Randall's flirtatiousness at the Charity Dance?
Was Jack openly flirting with Randall with their wives sitting right besides them? Did Jack make eye-contact with Randall instead of LaShawn when asking 'Wanna dance?' How about Jack and Randall sitting on the bench?
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(Oh this is a good one. I had seen BBM just once before the long wait for video, during which I took in all the discussion on IMDB.)
On just the one viewing, I was positive that Jack was in no way interested in Randall. He did seem to pick up Randall's vibe at the dinner table. But when Randall asked on the bench, Jack seemed as if he'd just been offered Brand X beans — and his expression was a mix of shock at Randall's ability to be so brazen, and a faraway 'missing Ennis' look.
I stuck by this impression a long time. (iirc, Littlewing and I were the main holdouts swearing there was nothing, ever, between Jack and Randall!)
I was eventually swayed by other folks' observations and by subsequent BBM viewings. Obviously, Jack has no chance to (verbally) respond to Randall in the scene we see. But latter parts of the film (OMT's mention of the 'ranch neighbor' etc.) indicate Jack accepted the "fishing trips" offer, although it was a pale second-best to what he wanted with Ennis.
The "wanna dance?" in the dining room? The excellent way it was shot deliberately makes it vague and intriguing. But after repeated Zapruder-like reviews of the scene, I do believe Jack is looking at LaShawn.
The trick that makes it look otherwise: when the camera cuts to her and Randall, Randall is looking straight at Jack but LaShawn's eyes shift from Lureen to Jack — making Randall look like the 'recipient' of the question for that split second. But in the previous cut, Jack is looking at LaShawn. (imo)
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Well Jack is just so laidback for starters. It's hard to tell. He didn't seem responsive to Randall's flirtations at the dance hall, though given the circumstances, I wouldn't expect him to be.
I don't know. Randall's flirtations might have gone over Jack's head. Maybe they (Jack/Randall) talked in the truck (if Lashawn let them) after they picked up Randall and his wife when their vehicle had broken down.
When they are sitting in the bench outside, Jack looked more surprised then interested if you ask me. He certainly didn't jump up and say, yeah sure, let's go to that crappy house. Of course, bigmouth Lashawn interrupts the conversation.
Jack was quite guarded given the circumstances. No doubt, Childress is a small town. Jack even knows Randall's boss. So he probably figured he would bump into Randall again and pick up where they left off.
All in all, it hard to say. Gay married males flirting with each other while their wives are right there. And no doubt Lureen was already wondering if Jack had any "secrets."
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Yes, it was a trick with the camera that threw you for a loop when Jack asks Lashawn to dance. He directly looks at LaShawn when he asks her to dance. But the trick with the cameras throws you off a little. Now, was this intentional by Ang or not? Muwahahaha!
Now we know from reading scripts and such that they originally intended to show Jack getting dropped off at his truck by Randall in front of the mechanics. So the intention was for them to get together. Jack even says at the final lake camp he's got a thing goin' with the forman's wife (a lie, it's actually with the foreman, but he could never tell Ennis that.)
However, the way the final cut of the movie is edited, the scene (as is most of the whole movie) is presented to us as ambiguous. We are never shown Jack fully accepting Randall's offer, but we do see him contemplating it.
The key for me that he did get together with Randall is when he tells Ennis about the "foreman's wife". As far as flirting at the table, I think Jack knew exactly what Randall's body language meant. But as Kd5000 said, he didn't exactly jump on it right then and there. (He didn't even answer Randall about it outside, but they were interrupted by the girls before he really had a chance to anyway.)
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Yes, it was a trick with the camera that threw you for a loop when Jack asks Lashawn to dance. He directly looks at LaShawn when he asks her to dance. But the trick with the cameras throws you off a little. Now, was this intentional by Ang or not? Muwahahaha!
Now we know from reading scripts and such that they originally intended to show Jack getting dropped off at his truck by Randall in front of the mechanics. So the intention was for them to get together. Jack even says at the final lake camp he's got a thing goin' with the forman's wife (a lie, it's actually with the foreman, but he could never tell Ennis that.)
However, the way the final cut of the movie is edited, the scene (as is most of the whole movie) is presented to us as ambiguous. We are never shown Jack fully accepting Randall's offer, but we do see him contemplating it.
The key for me that he did get together with Randall is when he tells Ennis about the "foreman's wife". As far as flirting at the table, I think Jack knew exactly what Randall's body language meant. But as Kd5000 said, he didn't exactly jump on it right then and there. (He didn't even answer Randall about it outside, but they were interrupted by the girls before he really had a chance to anyway.)
And don't forget that OMT mentions "another fella" that Jack was going to bring up to the ranch, the so-called neighbor of his from down in Texas. I assumed he was talking about Randall here, so I guess Jack and Randall did connect at some point.
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I don't think we see him being responsive. I think he did respond (I.E. the lake scene lie) but we don't ever see it.
Like Eric said, it's ambiguous. When Randall threw out his Idea on the bench, Jack was trying to balance his lonliness with his feelings for Ennis. Apparently, as so often happens, the lonliness won out and I believe Jack had a relationship with Randall. But, in response to the question, he was not responsive at the dance.
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You're right Lee that he didn't respond at the dance. But he didn't reject him either. And isn't that just as good as saying, hey, let's go for it?!?!? :P
Remember, Jack flirted with the rodeo clown at the bar. Flirting was second nature for him. Meeting Ennis changed his behaviour for a while, but not for life.
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I've always thought that Jack was not flirting with Randall at the table, though I do think Randall thought for a split second that Jack was asking him to dance.
I've never heard anyone agree with me on this, but I think that when Randall flirts with Jack outside on the bench, Jack looks frozen with the shock of "OMG, am I that obvious that this new guy can tell I'm queer?"
I do think (based on the "ranch fella" remarks of Mr. Twist, and Jack's own story about running around with the ranch foreman's wife) that Jack and Randall develop a sexual relationship, but how deep that relationship was, I don't know. I still think he would have dropped him for Ennis in a flash, if Ennis had given him any hope, or just continued with Ennis as they were, seeing him as much as possible, and just not mentioning Randall.
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Thanks Chrissi... glad you like the suggestion. ;D
In my first many, many viewings of this scene I was always convinced that Jack was looking directly at Randall when he asks "want to dance?". It never crossed my mind that he didn't (sort of like I was always totally convinced that Ennis said "I'm sorry" in TS2). In those initial viewings, it just seemed clear to me. But, the more I watch BBM and read discussions here, the more ambigous the whole Randall scene seems.
I do sort of think Jack was flirting at the dinner table. But, I think he was more wary of the situation on the bench. I feel like the look on his face on the bench shows he's less-than immediately enthusiastic about Randall's advances.
By the way... I LOVE the banner picture for the TOTW! :laugh:
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Randall is shamelessly devouring Jack with his eyes. Lureen's socialite veneer is so close to cracking from boredom and dissatisfaction that she's practically openly questioning Jack's ardor. And LaShawn restlessly claws for conversation and attention amid it all.
The multiple levels of tension at the dining table are palpable, and I think Jack says "wanna dance" as a form of tension-breaking and escape.
(Dancing with chatty LaShawn may not have been paradise, but it was certainly preferable to the cauldron of drama brewing in the preceding hour.)
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You're right Lee that he didn't respond at the dance. But he didn't reject him either. And isn't that just as good as saying, hey, let's go for it?!?!? :P
Remember, Jack flirted with the rodeo clown at the bar. Flirting was second nature for him. Meeting Ennis changed his behaviour for a while, but not for life.
Sorry Lee, but I don't agree that not rejecting someone outright can be taken as "hey, let's go for it." I don't believe the two are related. If someone doesn't clearly reject you I just don't think that means "yes." It could be that the person is simply being nice, not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, and hoping that they get the message of non interest without being blatant about it.
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Here is a different question:
If Jack divorced and moved up to Lightning Flat with Randall, would he have made up some excuse to disappear for a week to go meet Ennis?
"hey Randall, I'm going down to Childress to see my son Bobby". Then he goes camping with Ennis.
This is a really interesting question David! My feeling is that if Ennis were to get in touch with Jack in this type of situation (or really any circumstance), Jack would go meet him. I don't know that Jack would really be able to resist an invitation from Ennis. Whether or not Jack would initiate invitations to Ennis in this type of circumstance somehow seems more complex to me. I think Ennis would also go running to Jack under most circumstances. Neither one really "knows how to quit" the other.
But, as we see from Ennis's reaction to Mexico... we know that Ennis would not react well to the idea of Jack living in Lightning Flat with Randall or any other fellow. I think Jack would have to hide the fact that he was living with Randall entirely for a relationship to persist with Ennis. So, the type of scenario you suggest would involve a lot of denial and sneakiness to be feasible at all.
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There are parallels between this scene and the scenes of Jack and Ennis on the mountain. It's almost like the charity dance is a mini telling of Jack and Ennis, only with some things reversed or turned around, and parts played by other people.
At the beginning of the dance, Jack helps Randall when his truck was broken; at the end of their time on mountain, Ennis helps Jack when his truck is broken. LaShawn tells her background and how she wound up in Childress; Ennis tells his background and how he wound up on the mountain. LaShawn talks a blue streak to Jack; Ennis talks to Jack more than he's spoke in a year. With Ennis, Jack spills beans on himself. With Randall, Jack spills ashes on himself. Both spillings immediately followed a comment alluding to masculinity, one positive and the other negative -- "balls the size of apples," "husbands never dance with their wives." After that, Jack looks away while Ennis is washing (trying to resist), and Jack looks away when Randall proposes Roy Taylor's cabin (trying to resist?).
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Great topic of the week!
I love the "camera trick". It took me several viewings to see it. I suspect it was intentional, adding to the ambiguity.
I found it interesting that Jack asks Lashawn to dance right after Lureen's comment that husbands never want to dance with their wives. Jack looks at Lashawn ("wanna dance?"), then he does look at Randall, and says, "you mind?"
Lureen is then left at the table with Randall, and she looks away, exasperated, probably knowing Randall ain't gonna ask her to dance. He's too busy looking at Jack.
Regarding the bench scene, I find Jack's response to Randall's proposition difficult to read. I'm not sure if it's shock, he seems to have some internal dialogue though.
I'm puzzled by the nose-powdering line: it seems so odd; is it just small talk, or is he communicating something else?
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I've always thought that Jack was not flirting with Randall at the table, though I do think Randall thought for a split second that Jack was asking him to dance.
I've never heard anyone agree with me on this, but I think that when Randall flirts with Jack outside on the bench, Jack looks frozen with the shock of "OMG, am I that obvious that this new guy can tell I'm queer?"
I do think (based on the "ranch fella" remarks of Mr. Twist, and Jack's own story about running around with the ranch foreman's wife) that Jack and Randall develop a sexual relationship, but how deep that relationship was, I don't know. I still think he would have dropped him for Ennis in a flash, if Ennis had given him any hope, or just continued with Ennis as they were, seeing him as much as possible, and just not mentioning Randall.
I do agree with you on this Clarissa - that was one of my first thoughts as well, that Jack might be thinking 'is my sexuality that apparent?' Being propositioned by Randall IMO was a 'shock' to Jack for multiple reasons. Not the least of which, it caught him off guard and I believe he was used to being the pursuer, not the pursued. And, I believe as others have commented, he had immediate thoughts of Ennis interpersed with his initial reaction.
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I'm puzzled by the nose-powdering line: it seems so odd; is it just small talk, or is he communicating something else?
Like Lureen's remark about men never dancing with their wives, it's a comment on Jack and Lureen's sex life. He's saying, "Why powder your nose if you're just going to go home and go to bed? There's nothing going at home in bed, that's for sure!"
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.I'm puzzled by the nose-powdering line: it seems so odd; is it just small talk, or is he communicating something else?
Because my mother frequently used the expression "Let's go powder our noses" when I was young as a euphemism for going to the ladies' room, I think it's just small talk, a way for the screenwriters to poke fun at how often women need to use the restroom and how long it takes them once they're in there. We don't see how long Jack and Randall have been waiting for their wives. Perhaps it was a long time. Maybe Jack is thinking, Damn Lureen, what's taking her so long. I want to get out of here. I'm sick of always having to wait for her.... But instead he just comments, "Ever notice how a woman'll powder her nose before a party starts, and then powder it again when the party's over? Why powder your nose just to go home to bed?" Jack's a guy; he doesn't get the whole makeup routine. Neither does Randall.
I think the conversation is just a way for the screenwriters to get the characters from trivial conversation to the heavy stuff, Randall's proposition of a weekend at Roy Taylor's cabin for just the two of them.
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I do agree with you on this Clarissa - that was one of my first thoughts as well, that Jack might be thinking 'is my sexuality that apparent?' Being propositioned by Randall IMO was a 'shock' to Jack for multiple reasons. Not the least of which, it caught him off guard and I believe he was used to being the pursuer, not the pursued. And, I believe as others have commented, he had immediate thoughts of Ennis interpersed with his initial reaction.
Hi Elle and BBM-Cat,
This is a really interesting interpretation of the scene and Jack's physical response. But, it's funny... I have tended to read the significance of the whole scene as being about Jack's strong "gaydar" and his ability to either read or draw-out other gay men. I think Ennis is meant to be the most astonishing achievement in this regard... the fact that Jack was able to get Ennis to come out of his shell on Brokeback, etc. is of course one of the appeals of the relationship (I think from Ennis's perspective at least). And, here again, Jack and Randall are able to figure each other out through subtle exchanges and glances at a dinner table with their wives present, etc. It leaves the Jimbo exchange open for interpretation. Jimbo appears to reject Jack completely, but I've heard discussions here and there where it's been suggested that Jack really did have an understanding that Jimbo might be interested in men but that Jimbo felt threatened by the public-ness of Jack's advance (in front of the bartender, etc.).
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Hi Fran, I partly agree with what you just said. My comment before that was about the subtext, of course, not Jack's actual literal meaning. It didn't occur to me that Paul might be asking literally what Jack was talking about, perhaps not having heard the phrase as a once-common euphemism for going to the restroom. Yes, Jack was making small talk and using a common idiom of the day. And it's a way to carry the conversation along with small talk. To me, it works just fine on that level.
But most if not all of the lines in the film carry multiple meanings, and I think this one serves a second purpose. Subtextually, I see the entire dance scene as full of subtle remarks -- often digs -- about sexuality, including sexual orientation, sexual activity and masculinity. Men never dance with their wives. Jack and Randall don't have a smidgen of rhythm between them. Randall isn't mechanical. He wouldn't listen to LaShawn if he were going deaf tomorrow. LaShawn spent more on clothes than she made at N.M., which is more than Randall ever will make. Then there's the question of who Jack's actually asking to dance and the underlying meaning of Randall's invitation.
To me, the nose-powdering remark is another one of those. Subtly, unconsciously, Jack is saying there's nothing going on in bed that's worth getting gussied up for.
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There are parallels between this scene and the scenes of Jack and Ennis on the mountain. It's almost like the charity dance is a mini telling of Jack and Ennis, only with some things reversed or turned around, and parts played by other people.
At the beginning of the dance, Jack helps Randall when his truck was broken; at the end of their time on mountain, Ennis helps Jack when his truck is broken. LaShawn tells her background and how she wound up in Childress; Ennis tells his background and how he wound up on the mountain. LaShawn talks a blue streak to Jack; Ennis talks to Jack more than he's spoke in a year. With Ennis, Jack spills beans on himself. With Randall, Jack spills ashes on himself. Both spillings immediately followed a comment alluding to masculinity, one positive and the other negative -- "balls the size of apples," "husbands never dance with their wives." After that, Jack looks away while Ennis is washing (trying to resist), and Jack looks away when Randall proposes Roy Taylor's cabin (trying to resist?).
And... I just want to say wow to this observation!! :o
I think this is a truly interesting way to see this scene. So, is this an example of the "ink-blot" structure of the film? Or a microcosm of the film? Maybe microcosm is most accurate?
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Hi Fran, I partly agree with what you just said. My comment before that was about the subtext, of course, not Jack's actual literal meaning. It didn't occur to me that Paul might be asking literally what Jack was talking about, perhaps not having heard the phrase as a once-common euphemism for going to the restroom. Yes, Jack was making small talk and using a common idiom of the day. And it's a way to carry the conversation along with small talk. To me, it works just fine on that level.
But most if not all of the lines in the film carry multiple meanings, and I think this one serves a second purpose. Subtextually, I see the entire dance scene as full of subtle remarks -- often digs -- about sexuality, including sexual orientation, sexual activity and masculinity. Men never dance with their wives. Jack and Randall don't have a smidgen of rhythm between them. Randall isn't mechanical. He wouldn't listen to LaShawn if he were going deaf tomorrow. LaShawn spent more on clothes than she made at N.M., which is more than Randall ever will make. Then there's the question of who Jack's actually asking to dance and the underlying meaning of Randall's invitation.
To me, the nose-powdering remark is another one of those. Subtly, unconsciously, Jack is saying there's nothing going on in bed that's worth getting gussied up for.
Katherine, you're right. I was actually looking at the scene through more wishful eyes.
Admittedly, of all the scenes I've rewatched over and over, the Childress benefit dinner isn't one of them. For one thing, I find Cassie particularly annoying -- I think she has too many lines -- but I digress. Maybe this will explain it better: I don't want to see Randall putting the moves on Jack. I don't want to hear Jack imply he's not sleeping with Lureen because I already know who he'd rather be sleeping with and that he's just killing time with Lureen till Ennis can get his act together. Nor do I want to see Randall flirting with Jack because he's moving in on Ennis's territory, and that's not right. :)
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You're funny Fran. And I sympathize completely. 'Nother thing to keep in mind that powder is a powerful symbol. Men have their gunpowder--their guns. Women have THEIR weaponry--facepowder and such. Both types of powders are powerful reminders of potency. The flip side of this is the ashes--powder that represents the remainder of power, the residue, the emasculated form of powder. Both the ashes and the facepowder are present in this pivotal scene.
Later, there is a reminder of this as Lureen appears made up like a geisha or a Kabuki dancer when she confronts Ennis, altho thru telephone wires.
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Nor do I want to see Randall flirting with Jack because he's moving in on Ennis's territory, and that's not right. :)
I know what you mean! :-\
The flip side of this is the ashes--powder that represents the remainder of power, the residue, the emasculated form of powder. Both the ashes and the facepowder are present in this pivotal scene.
Good point that powder could be seen as a form of power for women. Lureen is still desperately trying to use her pow(d)er, but Jack just doesn't get it.
And... I just want to say wow to this observation!! :o
I think this is a truly interesting way to see this scene. So, is this an example of the "ink-blot" structure of the film? Or a microcosm of the film? Maybe microcosm is most accurate?
It's like a little mini mirror, don't you think?
(I should say not all of this observation is entirely original to me; it's partly extrapolated from a discussion on imdb -- which took place last week!! Yet another amazing example of how you never stop discovering things about this film.)
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Hi Elle and BBM-Cat,
This is a really interesting interpretation of the scene and Jack's physical response. But, it's funny... I have tended to read the significance of the whole scene as being about Jack's strong "gaydar" and his ability to either read or draw-out other gay men. I think Ennis is meant to be the most astonishing achievement in this regard... the fact that Jack was able to get Ennis to come out of his shell on Brokeback, etc. is of course one of the appeals of the relationship (I think from Ennis's perspective at least). And, here again, Jack and Randall are able to figure each other out through subtle exchanges and glances at a dinner table with their wives present, etc. It leaves the Jimbo exchange open for interpretation. Jimbo appears to reject Jack completely, but I've heard discussions here and there where it's been suggested that Jack really did have an understanding that Jimbo might be interested in men but that Jimbo felt threatened by the public-ness of Jack's advance (in front of the bartender, etc.).
I think you're very perceptive about this Amanda - and I agree with the impression of Jack's gaydar and the nonverbal communication occuring between he and Randall. Which, I think, because the nonverbal communication was actually verbalized aloud by Randall it was a bit of a 'shock' to Jack. Though they were picking up on each other's signals, maybe Jack didn't expect it to go further than that. I'm speculating also that Jack was taken aback at being pursued, given as you describe, his "ability to either read or draw-out other gay men". It's all very interesting.
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I think you're very perceptive about this Amanda - and I agree with the impression of Jack's gaydar and the nonverbal communication occuring between he and Randall. Which, I think, because the nonverbal communication was actually verbalized aloud by Randall it was a bit of a 'shock' to Jack. Though they were picking up on each other's signals, maybe Jack didn't expect it to go further than that. I'm speculating also that Jack was taken aback at being pursued, given as you describe, his "ability to either read or draw-out other gay men". It's all very interesting.
I completely agree that the whole situation shifts a bit out on the bench. You're right that once the guys are alone and Randall feels comfortable enough to actually verbalize his intent.. I think Jack feels a little overwhelmed. Maybe thinking that Randall is pretty "fast" here. And I think the fact that Randall happens to mention fishing (of all things) probably triggers all sorts of anxiety for Jack about Ennis and what this new scenario with Randall could mean to his relationship with Ennis.
But, yes, Jack's reactions seem much more guarded on the bench than at the dinner table. At least that's how I perceive it.
I do like the suggestion that he might be concerned about being so easily read as gay by another guy in a public place. It seems possible that this is one component of Jack's relative un-ease or stiffness at Randall's fishing trip suggestion.
This is also an interesting case where Jack isn't really the one making the first move. With Ennis and Jimbo, Jack takes the first initiative. So, maybe this throws him off a little too. In this way Randall is lined up more with Lureen as a first-move maker... and I guess both are second-choice options for Jack.
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I have felt like Jack was picking up on Randalls signals and was not comfortable with it. His feelings for Ennis being one thing, the fact their wives were there was another. I think he volunteered to dance with LaShawn to get out of that situation. What I have wondered is was Lureen prompting him to do that with "Husbands, never seem to want to dance with their wives...."
Later on the bench Jack is obviously nervous, looking for something to say, coming to the realization this opportunity had now presented itself about the time Ms. Neiman-Markus made her powdered nose reappearance.
So my answer: he was about to, and apparently did at a later date.
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I get the gaydar references in this scene and what it implies about Randall and Jack.
I also think that Jack is hinting that Lureen left to talk privately with Lashawn, and that perhaps he suspects what the conversation is about, even though Randall seems to be clueless on the subject. I am assuming that if the ladies left to powder their noses together, Lureen is the one who initiated the leave-taking.
I've always wondered what it is that Jack suspects Lureen is talking about with Lashawn...
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It was clear in the dance scene that Jack just wanted to get some dancing done with anyone other than his own wife. However, Randall did not start flirting until they were outside on the bench. I am sure that Randall was indeed the other ranch fella, and that he was also the one Jack was having an affair with, though of course he lied to Ennis about it and said it was the foreman's wife.
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At least from my perspective... I think the flirting started at the dinner table. And I think it mostly happened silently through glances and very veiled conversation. My sense is that the eye-contact (especially) made over dinner encouraged Randall to feel confident about being really rather forward in his suggestion to Jack on the bench.
It never ceases to amaze me how many different interpretations can be applied to almost any scene in BBM. And the other thing that amazes me... is the confidence with which most of us perceive certain scenes and meanings. Coming across very different readings/interpretations of certain scenes can actually come as a surprise or even a shock. I think this ability to have multiple readings of different scenes (and the movie as a whole, really) is what makes BBM a film and cinematic art (more than just a movie). Amazing.
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I've always wondered what it is that Jack suspects Lureen is talking about with Lashawn...
I doubt Lureen is talking about anything. :laugh:
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<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/2136439-420.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/2136439-420)
Heya,
This is slightly off-topic... but it does pertain to the image used on the banner for this TOTW... Notice that there's a guy wearing a white hat directly behind Jack here! I just happened to notice this while looking at the main BetterMost page. Another instance of the yin and yang and the ever-present reminder of white hats in Jack's world contrasted with the black hats that surround Ennis in his daily life.
:D
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:laugh: I don't suppose she can get a word in edgeways! Besides, she really doesn't seem to like LaShawn very much, judging by the snide remark about the sororities. So she's hardly likely to open up about Jack's lack of interest in her .. if anything, she'd be boasting about how fantastic he is in bed!
Susie :)
My experience is that women often retire to the restroom together as a pretext to talk in a place where the men can't go. If they had nothing to talk about, they wouldn't have gone together - particularly since they had only just met for the first time that evening and Lureen in particular doesn't seem to be enjoying anyone's company.
I know that this may only be a plot device to leave the men alone so they can have their discussion, but I am always left wondering in this scene what was they reason Lureen and Lashawn had to go someplace private to talk?
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I know that this may only be a plot device to leave the men alone so they can have their discussion, but I am always left wondering in this scene what was they reason Lureen and Lashawn had to go someplace private to talk?
I bet it wasn't Lureen who followed LaShawn, but vice versa. As you and Susie have already stated, Lureen wasn't very enthusiastic about Lashawn. In contrast, she was short of being rude with her snide remark.
And although LaShawn noticed it, she decided not only to ignore it, but countered it with even more good-will to keep the conversation flowing.
LaShawn was new in town, she probably didn't have any friends yet, she had a husband who tried to ignore her as much as he could. She was almost desperate in her attempt to get attention, and if it was only from almost strangers and even from a woman who wasn't very friendly to her. Besides, Jack and Lureen belonged to the social class she also wanted to belong to/to fit in. No wonder she tried to get in contact to Lureen. That's why she followed her to the restroom.
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My experience is that women often retire to the restroom together as a pretext to talk in a place where the men can't go. If they had nothing to talk about, they wouldn't have gone together - particularly since they had only just met for the first time that evening and Lureen in particular doesn't seem to be enjoying anyone's company.
I know that this may only be a plot device to leave the men alone so they can have their discussion, but I am always left wondering in this scene what was they reason Lureen and Lashawn had to go someplace private to talk?
Women tend to go to the restroom together just because they're sociable. Sometimes they have something specific to discuss or gossip about, but many times a woman headed to the restroom will just routinely ask the other woman if she wants to join her, with no conversational agenda. In this case, particularly, as the two couples were leaving, it would be natural for the women to stop in the restroom together on the way out.
IMO, it's probably reading too much into the scene to think that Lureen and LaShawn were discussing anything private or significant. For one thing, as they emerge it sounds like LaShawn is just babbling on as usual. For another, what would they have to talk about that would BE significant? Their unhappy marriages? Their husbands' gayness? the subtle flirtations going on at the table? No way -- they don't know each other well enough, and they're both in denial anyway. And anything other than that -- Lureen's concerns that the sagging agricultural economy might hurt the farm implement business, LaShawn's confession that she finds Roy Taylor hot -- wouldn't be significant in terms of the story.
Mainly, their absence gives Jack and Randall the opportunity to talk about something that IS significant.
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It's nice when someone is attracted to you, makes you feel special, desirable. It really boosts your confidence, something that Jack's had knocked out of him constantly by his dad, his wife, his father in law, and above all, his lover.
That's so true. And when Jack and Lureen met, her attention must have been such a balm to him, emotionally.
It's one thing to flirt innocently across the table, it quite another to be openly propositioned.
Yes, and you see that with Jack and Lureen too. He's thoroughly enjoying her attention on the dance floor and in the car. The looks, the dancing, the kissing, the holding. He says, "fast or slow, I like the direction you're goin" with a nice relaxed smile. Then when she takes off her top and makes it clear she wants to really get heavy, he looks scared. The same exact thing happens with Randall's proposition on the bench (as opposed to the looks across the table).
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Another instance of the yin and yang and the ever-present reminder of white hats in Jack's world contrasted with the black hats that surround Ennis in his daily life.
Yes, they have that going on a lot throughout the film. Most notably (and poignantly) in the Bus Station scene. Behind the tearful Cassie, a pair of men — one in a beige hat, one in a black hat — stand at the Greyhound counter. (Going off somewhere together? While Ennis is "nothin, nowhere"?)
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Nice observation Amanda .... just when you think you know it all, someone points something new out!
Susie :)
ps. I just wanted to say that I always really enjoy reading your posts .. it's a pity we've never had the chance to have a good natter!
Thanks Susie! :-*
A good "natter"?
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A good "natter"?
I believe that's English for "chat". :)
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I believe that's English for "chat". :)
Ah! Thanks! :-*
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Re: Jack on the bench.
I find it very "Ang" that Jack just stares, unmoving, to Randall's proposition. (And, wearing too much makeup, I might add.)
We're left to wonder what Jack might be "nattering" on about in his mind. Is he thinking about Ennis? Considering the proposition? Mortified? Nauseated from dancing with Lashawn?
I love how Ang never spoon-feeds us. It's up to us to figure it out.
Great question, Amanda.
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We women usually go to the loo when we're about to leave a place, even if it's just to make sure we don't come out looking like a train wreck!
Why do you care if you look like a train wreck if you're just going to go home and go to bed?
;) :laugh: ;D
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Don't you start!! :laugh: :laugh: ... Without sounding too indelicate ... you never know what's going to happen when you get there!! ;)
Guess your evenings are a little more unpredictable than Lureen's! :laugh:
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It never ceases to amaze me how many different interpretations can be applied to almost any scene in BBM. And the other thing that amazes me... is the confidence with which most of us perceive certain scenes and meanings. Coming across very different readings/interpretations of certain scenes can actually come as a surprise or even a shock. I think this ability to have multiple readings of different scenes (and the movie as a whole, really) is what makes BBM a film and cinematic art (more than just a movie). Amazing.
One of my favorite things about BBM is that it means different things to different people. Ask two people what the movie was about and you'll get two different answers. Ask two people what the movie meant to them and you'll get two different answers.
It was very interesting when everyone in my office watched the DVD. Everyone's first reaction to it and their thoughts on what it was about was different, and I found that very interesting. (One person's first reaction was "I've had (gay) friends who've gotten beaten up.." Another person's reaction was "I bet a lot of folks have a separate lover on the side". A third person just wanted to know "how did Jack die?")
BBM really is an enigma. Most all scenes are "open narrative" and "open to your interpretation". It is up to you to complete the story. We all have different answers, and they're all correct answers. :D
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With that said, here's how the scene plays out for me.
Randall and Jack exchange "knowing" glances at the table. (There is no flirting or proposition at the table).
Lureen pisses Jack off with the "husbands don't want to dance with their wives" comment, so he asks LaShawn to dance to get her back.
Out on the bench, Randall does proposition Jack, and we see Jack "comtemplating everything". The wives interrupt before Jack can answer (saved! for the moment), and Randall has a mean bitter look on his face when they do interrupt.
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I agree with Eric. I dont usually participate in this type of thread because of two things. One I agree with Eric, where there is no right or wrong answer. We each bring our own process to the decision. Even further, sometimes I find myself of one thought, and the next time a different one. The mood of the person is a large part of how you interpret it all. It is as changable as a Wyoming sky. Bright and hopeful, and dark and ominous. Each time you seek the way, it shows you another..
Annie is truly right. Saying each person should finish it themself, in their own mind according to their own mind set. of course that is a paraphrase.
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I agree about there being multiple correct interpretations. Including Janice's point that many of my OWN interpretations change over time.
That said, I have learned more in these conversations and debates about meaning than I ever thought possible to learn about a movie. More than I ever learned in any college literature class, that's for sure. I came here (or, originally, to imdb) loving the movie but with very little understanding of its endless depths and subtleties. Through participating in these conversations with people sharing insights, throwing ideas around, bouncing off each other, brainstorming, reaching amazing new discoveries together, I've come to a fuller, richer appreciation for this amazing film. I don't always "agree" with everybody's interpretations -- though I feel there are no right or wrong answers -- but I have learned much from everyone here, whether I share their opinions or not.
Thanks, everybody! :D :-*
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More news about this ?
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Much more ?
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No ?