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Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => IMDb Remarkable Writings Rewound => Topic started by: TOoP/Bruce on June 22, 2007, 04:45:51 pm
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Report of Brokeback Mountain Symbols (Spoilers)
by - jshane2002 (Fri May 19 2006 23:30:08 )
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by - flashframe777 (Fri Dec 23 2005 23:49:33 )
This thread is about the use of symbology used in Brokeback Mountain.
Add what you know to the list:
1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden.
2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
by - delalluvia (Sat Dec 24 2005 00:04:31 )
UPDATED Sun Dec 25 2005 00:28:08
1) Sheep - society, as in 'following like sheep', Jack & Ennis ride the herd, outside of it, not a part of it.
2) dead sheep - gutted, hollowed out - sheep's clothing, hiding something that isn't what it seems
3) Brokeback - the last straw, what burdens
4) colors - blue, red, black and lack of color and what they represent
5) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise; Ennis Del Mar - island of the sea; Signal - warning or sign; Riverton - moving slowly, winding past, flow, Lightning Flat - as in struck by lightning
6) coyotes - tricksters gods, teaching lessons by tricking - not always a pleasant experience
7) flattened harmonica - not harmonic, discord
8) beans = staple/mundane, elk/wild game = speaks for itself
9) black/white hats - experienced/no experience, guileless/earthy
10) methodist/pentecost - methodists have a system, things are done right a certain way/The Pentecost refers to the day wherin the descent of the Holy Spirit —a transformative and profound experience
All I can think of right now.
by - flashframe777 (Sat Dec 24 2005 00:07:41 )
Wow...you're good D. I got to mull some of it over.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
by - delalluvia (Sat Dec 24 2005 07:47:50 )
Interesting thread. bump
by - tommynewyear-1 (Sat Dec 24 2005 10:05:22 )
DAMN - you've been doing your homework, delalluvia!
by - emergency_notfall (Sat Dec 24 2005 07:51:54 )
Very funny.
No, what does "Ennis" really mean? Is it just a common male name or does it have a special meaning?
Thinking of it, "Jack" does have a strange double meaning, doesn't it?
by - delalluvia (Sat Dec 24 2005 07:56:16 )
Good question emergency.
As it's been pointed out and in my post above Ennis is Innis translates to 'island'.
Jack is a slang version for John. Jack's father was John. Not sure if Jack was really named Jack or was called that to differentiate him from his father.
When I think of the name 'John' John the Baptist comes to mind.
by - emergency_notfall (Sat Dec 24 2005 08:17:37 )
Oh, I thought Del Mar referred to an island.
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by - delalluvia (Sat Dec 24 2005 08:20:46 )
Ennis/Innis = island
del mar = of the sea
by - emergency_notfall (Sat Dec 24 2005 08:51:20 )
Aah, I get it! Thank you!
by - 3of19 (Tue Dec 27 2005 05:39:43 )
Someone mentioned on the board that the name Jack has roots in ancient Hebrew and originally means "grace", as in a gift from God.
Which is very fitting, Jack is a gift for Ennis.
by - Shuggy (Sun Dec 25 2005 00:56:29 )
8) beans = staple/mundane
In the story, the spoon handles sticking out of the bean cans are like tyre levers.
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."
by - bbinsider (Sun Dec 25 2005 10:23:29 )
what about the 4th of July fireworks scene? For some reason that one resonates with me. I'm overwhelemed by the picture perfect patriotism (gag!) that ends in such anger and violence....just as the fireworks explode over the crowd. It is such an angry, mean intolerant scene. Much like what gays and lesbians have to endure day in and day out....
by - BannerHill (Mon Dec 26 2005 22:22:13 )
Here are a couple of things I noticed this viewing
1 Has anyone noticed the sign nailed to the outside of Agguirre's office door? It says: "intruders will be shot". Underneath that line the sign continues; "Survivors will be shot again" Pretty cold. I didnt notice it the first time and its hard to make it out because Jack is walking down the steps and blocking it. Classic Western mentality, and dark foreshadowing.
2 What a great scene when Agguirre roars up in his car and startles Ennis Del Mar. It establishes who is an insider and who is an outsider.
A bizzare thing happened in line to see BBM here in Santa Monica. Graham Becker, the actor who plays Jack's father in Law, was in line right behind me. He was by himself and asked me what movie I was in line for.I froze and didn't know what to say to him. I think he was actually in line to see Cassanova. Wierd but true!
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by - Shuggy (Sun Jan 1 2006 19:48:04 )
1) Sheep - society, as in 'following like sheep', Jack & Ennis ride the herd, outside of it, not a part of it.
2) dead sheep - gutted, hollowed out - sheep's clothing, hiding something that isn't what it seems
3) Brokeback - the last straw, what burdens
4) colors - blue, red, black and lack of color and what they represent
5) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise; Ennis Del Mar - island of the sea; Signal - warning or sign; Riverton - moving slowly, winding past, flow, Lightning Flat - as in struck by lightning
6) coyotes - tricksters gods, teaching lessons by tricking - not always a pleasant experience
7) flattened harmonica - not harmonic, discord
8) beans = staple/mundane, elk/wild game = speaks for itself
9) black/white hats - experienced/no experience, guileless/earthy
10) methodist/pentecost - methodists have a system, things are done right a certain way/The Pentecost refers to the day wherin the descent of the Holy Spirit —a transformative and profound experience
11) Aguirre = wrath of God? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068182/combined
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."
by - delalluvia (Sun Jan 1 2006 20:30:18 )
shuggy
11) Aguirre = wrath of God? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068182/combined
Very interesting.
After your post, I did some thinking and decided that neither Proulx nor Lee would use a movie reference as symbolism, but a more basic one even though yours kicks @ss.
So after looking around I found these two, the latter being the most significant:
Aguirre a Form of 'Aguilar' Basque 1590
Aguilar means Sharp-sighted Cordoba, Portugal, et al
by - Shuggy (Mon Jan 2 2006 13:01:11 )
Aguirre a Form of 'Aguilar' Basque 1590
Aguilar means Sharp-sighted Cordoba, Portugal, et al
That figures, it's derived from aquilla, an eagle. Joe Aguirre is literally eagle-eyed.
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."
by - delalluvia (Mon Jan 2 2006 17:55:27 )
That figures, it's derived from aquilla, an eagle. Joe Aguirre is literally eagle-eyed.
D'oh! Thanks for reminding me of my Latin. I should've figured that one out.
by - Mary_Utah (Sat Dec 24 2005 10:33:44 )
I have read the story, not seen the movie (yet) but:
The shirts inside of each other - being under one's skin (Ennis was under Jack's skin. Later turned around, Jack was under Ennis' skin)
The shirts in the closet - sorta speaks for itself
"If you can't fix it, you got to stand it" ~ Ennis/Brokeback Mountain
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by - naun (Sat Dec 24 2005 11:43:15 )
What about this...First Jack is protecting Ennis with Ennis's shirt inside his. Then Ennis protects Jack with Jack's shirt inside Ennis's?
Yes, that's how I read it, too.
by - flashframe777 (Sat Dec 24 2005 22:40:51 )
Okay, this is a stretch, but the scene where Ennis wakes up surrounded by snow. Could life be any colder without Jack?
What did Ang mean with that scene?
Anyone, anyone, Bueller?
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
by - delalluvia (Sat Dec 24 2005 22:51:51 )
UPDATED Sat Dec 24 2005 22:56:45
flash,
Okay, this is a stretch, but the scene where Ennis wakes up surrounded by snow. Could life be any colder without Jack?
Or foreshadowing of his life alone being cold. When he comes back down to the campsite to be with Jack, the ice has thawed. Together they warm each other.
The other symbol I'm still trying to reconcile is Jack always being cold. They always camp when it's cold. Jack hates the cold.
Ennis' lack of action/consideration for their relationship and love leave Jack cold.
In the washing clothes by the river scene, Jack is washing Ennis' shirt buck-naked.
He looks around, shivers.
by - flashframe777 (Sat Dec 24 2005 22:57:32 )
Del...it also called for quick decision-making. Ennis was bewildered at have to make snap decisions. Jack just did what was required at the moment, and Ennis needed time to work out his resistance.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
by - nalgene (Sat Dec 24 2005 23:02:04 )
Yeah, in the snowy scene, Ennis is absolutely bewildered by the situation (I think I would be too!), but he gets down to Jack and Jack's cleaning up camp, taking down the tent, kind of unfazed. I don't know, maybe obvious. But something about Ennis stumbling about in the snow, with that blanket around him...
by - vml-the-great (Sat Dec 24 2005 23:43:40 )
Bump. This is an interesting thread.
by - nalgene (Sat Dec 24 2005 23:54:52 )
A friend of mine pointed out (and this is so obvious I know, but I just love the way it comes out visually, in the film, when you think back on it) that whenever they are together (except obvious places like Ennis' apt, the hotel etc.) the surroundings are absolutely idyllic, the scenery lush, so much to look at, the air just LOOKS clearer, and fresher.
When they are alone, in their lives, everything is flat (no mountains, of course), and dry and brown and washed out. Think about when Ennis first pulls up to Jack's house. The house is so sad and washed out and THAT kitchen. The saddest room I've ever scene (outside of some in Ireland, honestly).
I just love that contrast.
And where do they have their first scene together? A parking lot? And the last scene...? Exactly.
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by - delalluvia (Sat Dec 24 2005 23:57:15 )
UPDATED Sat Dec 24 2005 23:57:50
nalgene,
that whenever they are together (except obvious places like Ennis' apt, the hotel etc.) the surroundings are absolutely idyllic, the scenery lush, so much to look at, the air just LOOKS clearer, and fresher.
When they are alone, in their lives, everything is flat (no mountains, of course), and dry and brown and washed out
Ooh, well said. The best impression I get of this as well is when they head for Brokeback after the motel scene. They drive off from the dinginess of Ennis' apartment and the music lifts and by the time the truck is curving in the road of a goregous mountain backdrop, you feel rejuvenated and free and happy.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - flashframe777 (Sun Dec 25 2005 00:02:56 )
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Ah yes, Nalgene, I agree.
Another thing is whenever you have the scenes where the wind is blowing like Alma hanging clothes, or the wind kicking up dust, or the wind blows through the grass as the train passes -- it is a prelude to communication between Jack and Ennis. It's as if the wind is carrying the message in the air.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
)
by - nalgene (Sun Dec 25 2005 00:06:14 )
Ahhh, I love this thread. But I must go to bed. Merry Christmas to those who are so inclined... ;)
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - spottedreptile (Sun Dec 25 2005 00:28:09 )
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UPDATED Sun Dec 25 2005 00:31:08
I was musing on the intro scene where Ennis is outside Aguirre's office and the train goes past. You see Ennis' body flickering between the carriages, like a film advancing in front of the shutter.
Couldn't work it out, then it dawned on me, kinda.
Ennis 'shuttered,' captured, caught - as on film.
Maybe?
The wardrobe colours, also referred to more completely in another thread:
Ennis, brown, somber like the unchanging soil, deeply rooted.
Jack, blues, like the sky, always changing, restless.
by - flashframe777 (Sun Dec 25 2005 00:29:40 )
I like that SpotRep.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
by - delalluvia (Sun Dec 25 2005 00:30:28 )
I was musing on the intro scene where Ennis is outside Aguirre's office and the train goes past. You see Ennis' body flickering between the carriages, like a film advancing in front of the shutter.
Couldn't work it out, then it dawned on me, kinda.
Ennis 'shuttered.'
Maybe?
Dunno spotted. Someone else on another thread pointed out the very obvious train symbol; travel, change, unknown destinations, loneliness - as in the lonely cry of a train whistle at night.
by - spottedreptile (Sun Dec 25 2005 01:26:54 )
can't disagree with that either, delalluvia. However it seems to be a real contrast with what Ang does re Jack, so I wondered if there was a different meaning that Ang applied particularly to Ennis. Like he's a creature that's been trapped and can't get itself free, hence the expression 'caught on film.'
Also it's like a kinetoscope where the motion is jerky, like some frames are missing, so the subject is not seen as a complete entity. There's a lot we don't see, and with Ennis, that couldn't be more true.
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by - Ellemeno (Sat Jan 21 2006 15:58:19 )
Another thing is whenever you have the scenes where the wind is blowing like Alma hanging clothes, or the wind kicking up dust, or the wind blows through the grass as the train passes -- it is a prelude to communication between Jack and Ennis. It's as if the wind is carrying the message in the air.
As Aguirre says, "Look what the wind blew in."
Thanks for bringing this thread back.
not so lonely now, is it? hm
by - naun (Sun Dec 25 2005 01:43:11 )
A friend of mine pointed out (and this is so obvious I know, but I just love the way it comes out visually, in the film, when you think back on it) that whenever they are together (except obvious places like Ennis' apt, the hotel etc.) the surroundings are absolutely idyllic, the scenery lush, so much to look at, the air just LOOKS clearer, and fresher.
Very often they're near a body of water, which suggests perhaps a state of purity or guiltlessness.
Somebody mentioned the snow and the cold. I've often thought, watching Lee's earlier film The Ice Storm, that the images of ice and cold sharpened the sense of isolation you feel about the characters and made you more aware of their need for emotional warmth. Something similar is going on here, I think. The scenes in Brokeback of cars or trucks arriving or departing in a cloud of dust serve a similar purpose, I suspect, emphasizing the distance between people.
by - naun (Tue Dec 27 2005 05:28:34 )
The last that Jack sees of Ennis is of him driving away with a horse (or was it two horses?) in a trailer that has a kind of cage over the top. It's not hard to see the caged horse as a symbol of the freedom they have lost.
Speaking of horses, the scene of Jack selling the tractor (the "Versatile"(!) tractor, as a sharp-eyed viewer here noticed) while Lureen does the accounting in the office, years after their rodeo days are over, reminded me of some lines from Yeats' poem "At Galway Races":
We, too, had good attendance once,
Hearers and hearteners of the work;
Aye, horsemen for companions,
Before the merchant and the clerk
Breathed on the world with timid breath.
I wonder if Proulx or the screenwriters were thinking of the same poem? Here's a link to the entire poem:
http://www.poetry-archive.com/y/at_galway_races.html
The sheep
by - 3of19 (Tue Dec 27 2005 05:42:26 )
I got an idea today regarding the eviscerated sheep Ennis finds after the first night in the tent with Jack.
The audience doesn't know it yet, but I guess the sheep could remind Ennis of the murdered farmer his father shows to him.
From the PoV of the audience, it looks merely like a reminder of what happens if they skip out on their sheep-herding duties, but for Ennis it means more.
Re: The sheep
by - nictwister (Tue Dec 27 2005 09:38:07 )
When Jack comes to Ennis after learning the divorce is final and Ennis' daughters are in the car. The coversation is obvious very awkward for Ennis but I noticed he look off a truck in the distance and then they showed us the viewer that truck driving by...what was that meant to be?
The general public? Acceptance? Was that society driving by and reminding Ennis that someone would always be watching hence they could never be together despite the divorce?
That whole conversation was weird - why did Ennis take the time to send a card to Jack about the divorce if he didn't even want to entertain the idea of them being together.
Also, what did having the girls for one weekend have to do with them not being together? It just seem like some dialog that didn't communicate much - yet you knew exactly what it meant?
Re: The sheep
by - jyanks (Tue Dec 27 2005 09:49:38 )
I saw symbolism when Anne Hathaway is on the phone with Ennis. If you notice, her Lee Press-on nails are starting to come off....I thought that this was an important, yet minor detail that Ang Lee wanted us to notice.
Fake nails/Fake person = Fake story
Re: Fake nails
by - nictwister (Tue Dec 27 2005 09:53:47 )
I DID NOTICE THAT - and I thought the same exact thing.
Nail polish
by - delalluvia (Tue Dec 27 2005 11:29:10 )
UPDATED Tue Dec 27 2005 11:40:39
I saw symbolism when Anne Hathaway is on the phone with Ennis. If you notice, her Lee Press-on nails are starting to come off....I thought that this was an important, yet minor detail that Ang Lee wanted us to notice.
Fake nails/Fake person = Fake story
You know, I thought the same thing until I read a reviewer who talked about the nail polish stain on Lureen's finger.
So I took a closer look the next time and thought instead of press-on nails, what they look like is just Lureen doing a poor job of polishing her nails.
Those in the know understand what I mean when you go the manicurist and get a bad polish job. It's like they paint a swathe of color down the middle of your nail but don't get the sides covered.
In the end, that's what I decided it looked like to me.
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Re: The sheep
by - nalgene (Tue Dec 27 2005 11:37:24 )
NAUN - love the lines from Yeats! He's my favorite poet.
DELALLUVIA - I noticed that nailpolish on her finger too! Such detail. Also noticed the tobacco stains on her teeth.
Re: Nail polish
by - jyanks (Tue Dec 27 2005 12:24:11 )
Interesting about the bad polish job. I'll have to wait to video to watch again.
The "fake" element is still there. Her hair gets blonder & blonder throughout the movie. That's another piece of symbolism that shows how fake she is.
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - nictwister (Tue Dec 27 2005 17:38:03 )
So for all you really smart people who can spot the points of symbolism....What was meant by the two Thanksgiving scenes. One at Jack's house where the Father-in-Law is carving the Turkey with a regular knife and the one with Ennis where the Step Dad is using an electric carver.
The director meant something here because they did close-ups on both carving techniques. Did it represent the routine of life?
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - delalluvia (Tue Dec 27 2005 17:44:35 )
Hi nic,
One at Jack's house where the Father-in-Law is carving the Turkey with a regular knife and the one with Ennis where the Step Dad is using an electric carver.
The director meant something here because they did close-ups on both carving techniques. Did it represent the routine of life?
I think it was just to contrast the two family gatherings, to show how isolated both men are no matter their suroundings. One man needed to have someone else invite him to a meal, the other much better off, but still extraneous at the meal.
The electric knife was just a real touch of 70's cheesiness and how it appears at the Monroe's with their wanna-be class aspirations.
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - nictwister (Tue Dec 27 2005 18:11:58 )
You are so damned introspective. I think you pegged it.
What other symbolism did you see that you can share? I have read your postings and you are right on every time.
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - delalluvia (Tue Dec 27 2005 18:25:45 )
UPDATED Tue Dec 27 2005 18:30:28
jyanks
That's another piece of symbolism that shows how fake she is.
I don't think it's meant to symbolize how fake Lureen is, but how fake their life together became. It's all for show, flash and glitz, all surface, reality not what it seems.
What other symbolism did you see that you can share?
Thanks nic. Those are pretty much all I've come up with so far and I mention others from time to time when someone says something that makes me go 'Aha!' But as lurch pointed out, there is a danger of reading too much into things.
For example, the sheep thing.
Sheep are EXTREMELY symbolic, but then again, how many other herding animals could Proulx have used that are common in Wyoming? Sheep and cattle are pretty much it so far as I know and she wanted to use sheep to symbolize Jack and Ennis' failure to be real 'cow' boys because the sheep is despised by most cattlemen.
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - nictwister (Tue Dec 27 2005 18:44:14 )
Delalluvia,
What about the way Ennis's parents died? It sounded as if the drove off a cliff. Was that supposed to mean anything?
What about Jack checking on his son's tutor on his way out the door to meet Ennis? What did that symbolize?
You say you have seen it 6 times? When are our lives going to get back to normal? It took Ennis a YEAR to figure out that what made him sick was taking his eyes off of Jack. How long is it going to take us to recover. :)
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Other sights and suppositions
by - delalluvia (Tue Dec 27 2005 18:51:41 )
nic
Delalluvia,
What about the way Ennis's parents died? It sounded as if the drove off a cliff. Was that supposed to mean anything?
I didn't think it meant anything other than what it was, how they died. I never imagined they ran off a cliff - roads through mountainous areas are rarely a straight line ("one curve in 43 miles..."). You could easily kill yourself just running off the road in the days before seatbelts were required. Just run off a country road, lose control on the gravel, hit a ditch, flip over and that's all she wrote.
What about Jack checking on his son's tutor on his way out the door to meet Ennis? What did that symbolize?
Not so much as symbol but an example that 1) Jack is a caring parent and 2) that very few people actually like Jack.
You say you have seen it 6 times? When are our lives going to get back to normal? It took Ennis a YEAR to figure out that what made him sick was taking his eyes off of Jack. How long is it going to take us to recover. :)
LOL! Dunno. I'm a Star Wars veteran, so seeing the same movie once or twice a week for an entire summer is nothing unusual for me.
Matter of fact, for the upcoming New Years 3 day weekend, I am already planning what days I'm going to catch BBM again.
Re: Other sights and suppositions
by - nictwister (Tue Dec 27 2005 20:25:03 )
Delalluvia,
Well for me this is a first. I am sad to say I have had deaths in my family that haven't affected me this deeply. I am wanting to move on to anger and acceptance.
Last night I tried to shift my brain by watching Purple Rain (my all time favorite - for the music of course) and 2 minutes into the movie I was sitting back at the PC reading about BBM again.
What part of the country are you from?
Re: Other sights and suppositions
by - nalgene (Tue Dec 27 2005 20:29:31 )
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...Purple Rain (my all time favorite - for the music of course)
_____________________________________________________________________
Me too! Purple Rain is going to be my wedding song.
Re: Other sights and suppositions
by - delalluvia (Tue Dec 27 2005 20:48:51 )
UPDATED Tue Dec 27 2005 20:49:55
Hiya nic,
Well for me this is a first. I am sad to say I have had deaths in my family that haven't affected me this deeply. I am wanting to move on to anger and acceptance.
Brokeback got you good.
Last night I tried to shift my brain by watching Purple Rain (my all time favorite - for the music of course) and 2 minutes into the movie I was sitting back at the PC reading about BBM again.
Don't feel embarrassed. I'm a grown up and if I want to spend my spare time yakking online about cowboys in love, the meaning of herding sheep, whether an ancient Roman matron who murders her daughter's ex-husband and wants her young son to have an affair with Caesar is a good mother or not (HBO's 'Rome' is another obsession) and muse over with my fellow fans whether a Wookiee can actually swim with all that hair, then I will.
Some people bowl or play pickup games or watch sports or do needlepoint. I yak online on fanboards. So sue me.
What part of the country are you from?
Texas.
Re: Other sights and suppositions
by - gpeddino (Tue Dec 27 2005 20:56:16 )
Alma = means 'soul' in Spanish or Portuguese
Lureen = maybe a reference to 'lure'?
Re: Other sights and suppositions
by - anml-lvr (Sun Jan 1 2006 22:30:58 )
delalluvia,
You are a crack-up...thanks
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Dec 31 2005 06:37:32 )
What about Jack checking on his son's tutor on his way out the door to meet Ennis? What did that symbolize?
The things delalluvia said; also it showed the nature of the relationship between Jack and Lureen. He asks her to call the teacher, she said she thought he was going to, and he said the teacher doesn't like him, you do it, and she agrees. They have a give-and-take partnership, pleasant enough and effective as far as getting things done, but it's cold, all business. As Jack says later in the movie, they could do it all over the phone. Then the scene ends with a perfunctory kiss, no real warmth.
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Re: Carving of Turkey
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 05:53:49 )
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 09:53:08
hi turkey slicin' appreciators : )
this is one of my favorite 'threads'.. so I hope you'll excuse me for stretching the topic to include just imagery- because I don't have any subtle symbolism to offer here with turkey observations-
but the 2 turkey dinner slicing scenes sure stay, uh, seared in the memory! Ang Lee must be having fun here.
both turkeys are hugely contrasted with those red elk-meat strips, eh? (after the first sortof shocked gasp..) now that was a real rib-sticking feast, the one on Brokeback... no fancy silver or electric knives at that dinner.. no need for 'em--
(the electric knife almost made ME snicker.. poor guy. Alma does not look happy and can't be a fun ride this time around as Mrs Electric Knife.. sigh.) (speaking of the silver knife household, I couldn't STAND Mr Father in law for one dinner, much less take him skulking around, daily- YUK)
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - pkdetroit (Wed Dec 28 2005 06:47:09 )
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All these tiny details are what makes a movie great. And Ang Lee is oh so subtle too, not hitting you over the head like Spielberg and others tend to do. So many movies seem to be made with only "that will look really cool" in mind with no consideration of how greatly a story can be moved forward by the important little details of which many moviegoers will be blissfully unaware.
Like the dead sheep for example, on the surface it is a reminder of what can happen if the boys are derelict in their duties, but a lot can be read into that dead animal that can inhance a moviegoer's experience of the story.
Unsurprisingly, Lee is very Chinese in the way he presents his stories. Other fans of Chinese cinema will agree that even if you are unable to follow the stories, many Chinese movies are visually breathtaking. Each scene is like a painting, details have the same importance on a big screen as on a small canvas. And not just details ,like carving knives, but perspective and scale and how objects relate to each other in the space, color, sound and of course music are not just add-ons but integral parts of the whole.
I look forward to seeing BBM again...and again.
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - flashframe777 (Wed Dec 28 2005 09:44:54 )
There's something about the last shot, the picture window that haunts me. With the yellow and green in the background it makes me think of "America The Beautiful" (that's God Save The Queen to you Brits), and amber waves of grain. It's serves as a picture window to what life could be, and a reminder not to let it pass you by.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - flashframe777 (Thu Dec 29 2005 22:27:51 )
bump for movie engineer.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Carving of Turkey
by - Ellemeno (Sat Jan 21 2006 16:08:09 )
Re turkeys, I keep thinking this in the theater, and then forgetting to mention it here - Isn't there a saying about "getting one's turkey basted?" I've had the sense it means to have one's sexual needs met.
Well, Jack goes to Mexico and walks down that alley with the lovely and talented Rodrigo. Fade to black. The very next shot is an extreme close up of this big old turkey having goo poured over it, and Jack's belt buckle.
not so lonely now, is it? hm
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by - deliane (Tue Dec 27 2005 19:13:06 )
not exactly a symbol- more of a simile-
Jake and Ennis' relationship- especially the lovemaking scenes- reminds me of a kind of rough dance between horse-tamer and wild horse.. but backwards: Jake is the would-be rodeo rider of bucking broncos who says he can't be thrown yet is thrown, over and over. but with Ennis- he is masterful. gentle, coaxing, can't be thrown no matter how rough Ennis' ride. and Ennis, the stoic, the sharp shooter, is the wild one, the untamed force-
beautiful and moving. hard for me to put into words. but it makes what they are, ranch hands, seem a metaphor for how their love plays out- and how they read eachother.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - ddmaul (Tue Dec 27 2005 20:36:33 )
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Yes. There's another thread on here somewhere that talks about the meaning of the characters' names. Ennis is Gaelic for island, and Twist refers (in rodeo jargon) to the bundle of muscles in the thighs and butt that are used in staying on a bull. So, you hit it right on the head: Jack Twist is trying like hell to stay on the bullride that is his relationship with Ennis. In another scene Ennis says "I never rodeoed much myself. Don't see the point in riding for just a few seconds" (that's paraphrased, I know). Jack says "Money's a good point", to which Ennis replies "not if you get stopmed winning it". And there's their relationship: a few moments at a time, with the potential to be richly rewarding if only Ennis could get over the fear of "getting stomped". Great, now I'm crying again....
by - dane-oliver (Sat Dec 31 2005 09:56:34 )
I also saw a lot of imagery relating to the poverty of the regions that both Jack and Ennis live in and how the divide between urban and rural effected them. For example, the scene in the honky tonk bar with Ennis, his girlfriend and his daughter shows a women with a tatoo on her entire back. To me this symbolized Ang's intention to show the Western lifestyle as it really was in the 1980s and how much it contrasted to a very different urban lifestyle for homosexuals that was happening in larger urban centres at the same time.
by - diemxperdidi (Sun Jan 1 2006 21:20:04 )
UPDATED Sun Jan 1 2006 21:21:00
i don't know if someone else has said this, but what about Jack's rodeo-ing?
Rodeo is dangerous, with the potential to get hurt (...or killed). And it's very shifting, as well. The bulls change, the places change. When someone asks Jack about doing the calf-lassoe thing (not up on cowboy lingo, sorry), he says he hasn't the money to buy a horse. If he bought a horse, he would have to stay with that horse...no more changing for each show. Does this not reflect his character? He is willing to risk anything for his love, he is always moving, he seems to CRAVE change.
On the other hand, Ennis expresses some amount of distain for rodeo cowboys...he likes the stability of stationary lifestyles.
However, in the first sex scene, Ennis takes the more masculine role, "riding" Jack. Perhaps Jack forces Ennis to embrace change and risks, and on the flip side, Ennis forces Jack to pull back at times.
I might be way off base here, though. You've probably talked about this before, too, so whatever. Carry on ^.^
we can all just kiss off into the air
by - mlewisusc (Sun Jan 1 2006 22:24:01 )
On a long-ago (3 days?) thread, someone who knew about rodeo and other things pointed out that the bartender knew Jack was hitting on the rodeo clown, and suggested calf-roping to him, basically meaning if he wanted to hook up with a guy, he'd need to go after someone younger and less experienced than the rodeo clown. Basically a derisive aimed at Jack because he just got shot down.
Not my knowledge, I'm just passing it on.
But I might agree about the riskiness of bull riding showing Jack's more "outgoing" or "risk-taking" outlook (e.g., made the first move, wants to try living together).
by - mlewisusc (Mon Jan 2 2006 18:31:57 )
Another item I noticed on my last viewing of the film -
Jack's character actually holds the sheep - the lamb on the way up, a sheep slung across his back crossing a stream, picking something out of the lamb when they are sitting up on the pasture.
Ennis, by contrast, has a lamb in a sack attached to his saddle, but no other contact seen (including during the separation scene - Jack dragging a sheep over to their herd, Ennis on his horse).
Could this merely be because Jack was originally the herder?
As others at other threads have said, Lee does NOTHING without a reason.
So is there more to this?
What are your thoughts?
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by - frog123 (Sat Jan 21 2006 16:01:31 )
""by - delalluvia
1) Sheep - society, as in 'following like sheep', Jack & Ennis ride the herd, outside of it, not a part of it.
2) dead sheep - gutted, hollowed out - sheep's clothing, hiding something that isn't what it seems
3) Brokeback - the last straw, what burdens
4) colors - blue, red, black and lack of color and what they represent
5) names - Twist - cowboy lingo; also not straight, a surprise; Ennis Del Mar - island of the sea; Signal - warning or sign; Riverton - moving slowly, winding past, flow, Lightning Flat - as in struck by lightning
6) coyotes - tricksters gods, teaching lessons by tricking - not always a pleasant experience
7) flattened harmonica - not harmonic, discord
8) beans = staple/mundane, elk/wild game = speaks for itself
9) black/white hats - experienced/no experience, guileless/earthy
10) methodist/pentecost - methodists have a system, things are done right a certain way/The Pentecost refers to the day wherin the descent of the Holy Spirit —a transformative and profound experience""
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
""by - flashframe777
1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden.
2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence.""
WOW double wow!!!
I love IMDb...I see new things about BBM everyday!
Thank you so much x
www.ennisjack.com
by - SeattleDreamer (Sat Jan 21 2006 16:13:31 )
1) Opening scene, Ennis and Jack waiting for Aguirre. Aguirre shows up, doesn't look at them, walks into trailer. You see Ennis just stopped on the steps, looking very awkward, waiting for permission to go in. Here Ennis and Jack are portrayed as "boys", lacking confidence, unsure of their future. No surprise that Aguirre refers to them as "boys"..... "you boys looking for work you better get your asses in here pronto". If these were older men, do you think Aguirre would have ignored them like that walking in? Also, no surprise that there was no diaglogue whatsoever with Ennis and Jack in that opening scene..... children do not talk. They are boys at the beginning, turn into men on the mountain. Very poignant scene.
2) Also, did you notice that right after that scene, they are walking to the bar, and Jack is walking in front, and Ennis is way behind? They are not talking to each other, yet you have to presume that Jack proposed they go to the bar, and Ennis, the shy one, lags behind.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - delalluvia (Sat Jan 21 2006 17:28:25 )
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seattle
No surprise that Aguirre refers to them as "boys"..... "you boys looking for work you better get your asses in here pronto". If these were older men, do you think Aguirre would have ignored them like that walking in? Also, no surprise that there was no diaglogue whatsoever with Ennis and Jack in that opening scene..... children do not talk. They are boys at the beginning, turn into men on the mountain. Very poignant scene.
Aguirre called them a 'pair of deuces'.
by - shrinkrapt (Sat Jan 21 2006 17:32:08 )
As mentioned on another thread, fire is very symbolic. As Ennis is psyching himself up to apologise to/shag Jack in the tent, he stokes up the fire (passion) and gets up, leaving it blazing mightily.
by - mikel1814 (Sat Jan 21 2006 18:14:03 )
UPDATED Sat Jan 21 2006 18:22:59
Ok here it goes, there are tons. LOL
Beginning of movie. Semi truck travelling right to left at dusk, Ennis gets out holding nothing but a brown paper bag. All his worldly posessions. This is Ennis' right of passage into a whole new world that he isn't expecting.
End of movie, Ennis climbs into a truck holding nothing but a brown paper bag. What in the beginning of the movie is nothing but odds and ends, trivial materials...extra shirt, tooth brush, razor...becomes a sacred container for the most important thing in his life...it shows that Ennis comes into the movie with what he thinks is important - the few things he has, and ends realizing how trivial all of that really is. The truck drives left to right at dusk and we go into the coda of the movie. This is the beginning of his closure.
Jack Twist. Verbs for struggling to break free. Twist is the term rodeo riders use for the strenth and agility in the legs required to hold on to something for as long as possible to win in the end. Jack, like a jackrabbit.
Black hat. The tragic character. The "bad guy" in the sense that he is more the antagonist of the film. He is fated to meet his demise from the beginning. The person who takes dangerous risks. This is a cinematic term, I'm not saying that Jack is bad, it's just ancient story telling. You cannot have an Ennis Del Mar without a Jack Twist. He is the one that brings about the drama, and in true Greek form, is the one that triggers the change in the protagonist. In this case, loving so much that it kills him.
Blue eyes, blue shirt. Color of the sky. Color of dreams. You can almost imagine him being poor, staring out that dingy bedroom window at the sky at age 15, dreaming of being somewhere else, knowing he doesn't belong there. Staring at the sky for so long that his eyes start to soak up the color.
Ennis Del Mar, Island of the Sea. Walking five paces behind Jack to the bar after they meet. Sitting and pouting on the last day of Brokeback on that hilltop. Alone. Browns and beiges, muted. Playing it safe. Holding in all of his color. White hat. The good cowboy. The one that is going to grow, learn, the protagonist.
Joe Aguirre. Authority. Government, Society. If Brokeback Mountain is the Christian "Eden," Aguirre represents judgement. "He's got no business making us do something against the rules." This is interpereted two was by both characters subconsiously. Jack is saying that he and Ennis should be together, it's in the stars. They should not be apart. It's against the rules of love and fate. Ennis does not respond to this statement, but stares into the distance. He was taught to respect authority. His father plays a strong role in his life, especially since he is dead. He holds his father up next to God. Ennis senses Jack's meaning here but, just like "sticking with the beans," he follows the rules set out by God. By society. By his father. By Aguirre. It isn't until he finally decides to kill the elk that he finds a a way to nurture Jack. Later Aguirre interrupts the utopia. Joe is the name of the everday man. He is just your average Joe. He represents what common society belives. Aguirre is similar to the word "Augerer." An Auger is a one of a group of ancient Roman religious officials who foretold events by observing and interpreting signs and omens. "Look what the wind blew in..."
The sheep have been discussed already. Lamb of God, after Ennis has his "opportunity" to "sin," the lamb has died. This is merely a coincidence, a result of the sheep not being watched. But the death, the sound of flies, the sheep ripped open, seems to Ennis as a sign from God and authority that the rules have been broken. He is now a sinner.
As the movie progresses, the colors I mentioned earlier begin to appear in many places. Jack's "blue parka." Ennis has a light blue truck. In our first scene with Alma, she is wearing Ennis' beige, in her hat. She has adopted the heart of Ennis. Ennis' winter hat is blue. He is still connected to Jack. Later, we see Ennis getting ready to head off to visit Jack, and he's wearing a Beige shirt with blue stripes. This is probably the time in the film in which he is the most balanced. He has the best of both worlds. This has a claming effect on him, but as we all know, things do not stay this way for long in life, and things begin to go downhill.
Blue is also the color of love in this film. It's almost as if it's a beacon, or a neon sign trying to attract Ennis' attention to reassure him of love. First it's Jack, then Alma Jr. is wearing bluebird earrings when she's trying to convince him to let her move in with him - let her love him, let her into his life. (Where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring.)
The tents in the last several trips are also blue, they are the safe haven of their love, next to the rushing blue water, under the big blue sky.
Jack's mother at the end of the film is wearing a blue sweater, there is a blue towel hanging from the stove and a blue coffee pot. Everything else in that scene is washed out white, but it's as if the area around her is awash in a blue aura. She represents love. Alma Jr's sweater at the end of the film has large blue stripes on it.
Although there aren't very many things in Jack's room, which has a ghostly, tomb like feel to it, the things that are there represent all of his dreams.
The cowboy on the desk, the baby shoes on the dresser, the gun hanging from the wall. The stick on the window ledge, to hold open the window - to allow the sounds of the outside - the sounds of the wind in the distance - his childhood dreams...to reach him inside. And yet Ennis still hasn't found the answer he is looking for. He is drawn into the closet, and he finds it.
The mailbox. Putting his address stickers carefully in place. Finally allowing for communication. Finally allowing those that love him in.
Alma Jr's future husband is "Kurt." or "Curt" Curt means "terse, using few words, getting to the point without being overly expressive." Alma has fallen in love with a man like her father. Of course she has.
And of course, the open window at the end. Ennis' dreams - a wide open field, with no Mountain towering over him. We are trapped inside the claustrophobic trailer, yet we are allowed to gaze out of the window. Into the distance like Jack did as a child. Into Ennis' future, which seems hopeful. A blank, uninterrupted canvas. Another chance to get it right. Next to that, Ennis' world, his daughters blue sweater, his lovers blue shirt. His worldy posessions, locked deep inside.
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by - chefjudy (Sun Jan 22 2006 12:20:27 )
this is great - please read
by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 22 2006 14:53:31 )
Michael1814...that was absolutely beautiful.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
by - mikel1814 (Sun Jan 22 2006 20:22:29 )
Thanks for the bumping and compliments. That's usually how I end a really good Saturday night...
by - breakfastonmars (Sun Jan 22 2006 21:05:50 )
Mike, I second (or third) that --- beautiful post! Beautiful thread.
I want to add a few things (then I have to go to bed).
I find the recurence of the opening scene (that shot where the truck is driving on the screen) later in the movie to be one of the most (if not the most) beautiful shot in the movie.
It is such a wide shot and at first Ennis is traveling in a truck with someone, and in the later shot he is travelig in his own car.
I find the second shot to be so beautiful and lonely. Just Ennis traveling at dusk and it is such a wide shot on a lonely country road that you can just sense this beautiful loneliness watching Ennis drive through on that road with not a single other being in that shot. And having the same shot twice in a movie - but with twenty year's difference and once right before he is to meet his true love and the second time after he has lost hime - speaks volumes about time, to me.
Also, I believe that there is hardly any score in the first four year's that Jack and Ennis are apart after herding the sheep... the score starts again when Jack re-appears on Ennis' doorstep. I thought that was a beautiful and clever touch.
Also, to me Ennis folding his daughter's sweater was a very symbolic gesture. He at first wants to give it back to her, but then folds it for her when he knows she has gone. This is a very paternal gesture (folding a child's clothig for them) and says, to me, that Ennis knows that this someone will be apart of his life, so he is keeping something of hers in his trailer for when she comes the next time. He is accepting that she is in his life this way, and he seems content with this fact.
Also, at the end when he asks "Does he love you?" when his daughter says she is getting married... I believe this is the first time that Ennis utters the word love in the movie, perhaps in his life.
His marriage to Alma was not about love (at least not on his part) and he could not admit that he loved Jack, so him saying this was a very monumental step, in my view. In asking that question he is saying "I realize that love is important"... which to me is what really struck me.
The journey that Ennis goes through is about accepting that love is important. A natural after-effect of realizing the importance of love is realizing the importance of self-love, but it is about Ennis' acceptance of love first and foremost.
by - kodack10 (Sun Jan 22 2006 21:31:58 )
That was beautiful breakfast on mars. Sharing those ideas are what I love about movie boards. The movies over, you've spent your two yours watching it. But you spend the next month discussing it, analyzing it, thinking about it.
Kodack
Sheep shagging might have been less controversial.
by - kodack10 (Sun Jan 22 2006 20:25:28 )
I had a strange thought during those scenes in isolation up on the mountain. A film about guys being lonely and having sex with sheep would have probably gone over with the public easier than a film about honest love among 2 men.
That thought doesn't reflect an opinion of the movie, it's more of an opinion of the masses of people who won't see this movie.
Kodack
Re: Sheep shagging might have been less controversial.
by - delalluvia (Sun Jan 22 2006 20:32:17 )
I posted this on another thread:
Ennis is looking at the disemboweled sheep - what's left? A sheep-skin, the wool of a sheep.
As in 'pulling the wool over one's eyes' or 'wolf in sheep's clothing' the sheepskin has come off to reveal someone who isn't what he seems -
cut to
Jack, naked and exposed {doing laundry) shivers and looks around.
and this symbol was mentioned in another post/thread. As Ennis is hugging the shirts to him at the end, and someone remarked how the hanger hook made a question mark shape against his face.
Upon my 9th viewing today, I realized that instead of a question mark, it - if anything other than just a hanger - could symbolize a shepherds crook.
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by - meryl_88 (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:26:36 )
Thanks to everyone for the marvelous insights. Every time I see the movie I see more because of these threads.
I'd just like to mention a couple of things having to do with Ennis and Jack being symbols of Earth and Air, respectively.
Regarding the scene where Alma, kneeling on the bed, embraces Ennis from behind, coaxing him to accept a move into town where he won't feel so lonely: others have noted elsewhere that Ennis's face becomes a mask at the word "lonely" as his thoughts presumably turn to Jack. Watching the film after reading the comments here, I realized suddenly that Ang Lee absolutely tells us this is the case: in the pause before Ennis turns to kiss Alma, the wind can be heard distinctly beating against the house. This sound would not have been there as the actors shot the scene but added later by the sound effects department. It literally gave me chills.
The scene at the Twist house: I used to feel sorry for Jack's mother that she couldn't give Ennis her son's ashes due to the father's obdurate refusal. However, now I've come to feel that in the act of putting the shirts into the bag which Ennis is holding for her, she is actually committing Jack (the blue shirt) to the Earth (Ennis/the brown bag) symbolically. The rite is still accomplished.
One more thought, about the dead sheep discovered the morning after Ennis and Jack first have sex. When I first saw the film, I saw it mainly as a symbol of punishment for Ennis's irresponsibility. But in later viewings it became more of a symbol of things to come, a mute warning that something had now changed that would set them on a tragic course. The bloody sheep, watched helplessly by the whimpering dog, calls up the image of Ennis mourning the murdered Jack. Or you could take it to symbolize how Ennis and Jack are destined to be "gutted" over the years by their fears, secrecy and lies, while their loved ones stand by, powerless to change things.
by - SpookyRabbitInDaYard (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:34:50 )
The piece of music that is missing from the soundtrack CD (one of them, there is at least one more...), I think of as the death theme.
It begins with the dead sheep, with the flashback of Earl's death by dragging, with the postcard and its red word and with the discovery of the shirts.
Powerful piece of music, really well used...
"Yes ma'am, I'll have a cup a coffee, but I can't eat no cake just now."
by - Julie01 (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:43:13 )
hey, that's my favorite music from ther movie--not on the sound track?
"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - SpookyRabbitInDaYard (Sun Jan 22 2006 23:48:13 )
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Nope. It's all minor key keyboards and the only real violin in the movie.
I guess they thought it would interrupt the country/acoustic guitar flow of the CD?
It's my favorite music too, Julie! Very dramatic...
"Yes ma'am, I'll have a cup a coffee, but I can't eat no cake just now."
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by - henrypie (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:10:24 )
meryl88:
I had not thought of the act of putting the shirts in the brown bag as a symbolic interring of Jack's remains -- absolutely beautiful and well-observed. Thank you.
by - bjblakeslee (Tue Jan 24 2006 04:08:44 )
>>This thread is about the use of symbology used in Brokeback Mountain.
Add what you know to the list:
1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden.
2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence. I posted this before on another <<
Ennis talks to Jack about having shot a cayote with "balls the size of apples" on one of his returns to the camp. This also amplifies the Eden theme with a "forbidden fruit" reference.
by - Countess_of_Moldovia (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:06:28 )
I don't follow this board too closely so forgive me if I'm posting incorrectly or redundantly or whatever.
Sheep have always been a biblical sign of innocence. Christ refers to the church (the body of believers) as sheep, and he says "you must become like little children to follow me."
In short, sheep represent blind purity and innocence.
HOWEVER,
The metaphor is extended by the reference to Christ as the sacrificial sheep. He is also refered to as a Lion amongst other things, all depending on the particular aspect of his personality that is being discussed.
Jesus as the Lamb of God is the ultimate sacrifice - the blood that must be spilled to atone for the sins of the world.
I believe the dead sheep is used in both capacities here, first as a sign of the end of innocence (as someone once said) and as a foreshadowing of Jack's ultimate death, the blood that will be spilled on account of his love and "sacrifice" (I use that term metaphorically) for Ennis.
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14118
by - ThE_FiLmMaKer90 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:15:06 )
I really need everyone to go read this post:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/34552269
cheers
[email protected]
by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:21:40 )
breakfastonmars--you referred to Ennis folding Jr.'s sweater--notice how he did it--held it tucked under his chin, took both sleeves out and folded into the middle--like an embrace in and of itself, before folding it and putting it on shelf in his wardrobe
the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--
by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:44:18 )
flickfan
the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--
I don't see how that follows. Can you explain more?
Team Jolie
by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:43:17 )
dellaluvia
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---
2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.
Any better?
by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 16:54:26 )
ejunk
Naw, Ennis was just carving a rough horse shape. There was no cowboy on top. Jack's 'cowboy' looked like a favorite childhood toy. I think it's just a symbol that both men wanted to be cowboys and neither quite made it.
flick
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---
I think the POV is the author's - couldn't say otherwise if it was Ennis or Jack's opinion since the short story is mostly Ennis' POV, but right after this section about the fight, it segues into Jack's POV.
2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.
Ah, gotcha. Mmm, a possibility I grant you, but for this to make sense in the movie, there would have had to have been mention of the hanger in the movie's story, but it was not for obvious reasons. So your suggestion of the hanger's symbolic meaning depends on the fans of the movie/story being able to shift from the story to the movie for it to make sense. Those only familiar with the movie won't get it. It would be like an 'in' joke that only few would understand.
Team Jolie
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - ejunk86d (Tue Jan 24 2006 15:17:25 )
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One thing that struck me was "The cowboy on the desk." When they were on the mountain the first summer, Jack's up sleeping with the sheep and Ennis is in camp. I think it's even raining and he's in the tent (will have to go see movie again to confirm this). Anyway, Ennis is carving a horse and rider; did he give that to Jack and that is what is on his childhood bedroom's desk?
Thoughts on symbolism (if any)?
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Jack Nasty loves you!
by - RobertPlant (Wed Feb 1 2006 05:51:28 )
Maybe it has already been noticed:
- The water, that washes away the "sin"...
Jack washes his clothes after their first night..
- Moreover he's naked and shivers..
nudity and "cold" here may represent his vulnerability and fear in front of his feelings
Btw in my opinion this scene means that the one with Ennis is his first
experience with an other man.
by - fernly (Sat Feb 4 2006 00:30:15 )
UPDATED Sat Feb 4 2006 00:31:46
lightning--Jack is from Lightning Flat..
in the story's reunion scene after Alma had seen them kiss, "Behind her in the room the lightning lit the window like a white sheet waving"...
in the movie, (help me out here, I don't remember exactly when this scence occurred, damn I'll have to go see the movie, again) Jack is sleeping on the mountain, sheep dog near him, lightning in the distance - maybe over the camp where Ennis is?
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - RobertPlant (Sat Feb 4 2006 02:15:49 )
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Yes, Jack is looking at the camp...on one of the first nights they spend there.
by - jmmgallagher (Fri Feb 10 2006 22:02:46 )
There is so much trash on this board, and this thread is pure gold.
BUMP!
"And it was light--"
by - cheriberry (Fri Feb 10 2006 22:14:24 )
This thread itself is a symbol -- of the end of intelligent life as we know it.
by - jmmgallagher (Fri Feb 10 2006 22:22:16 )
Of course, we have to hear from the dark side....
by - Front-Ranger (Sat Feb 11 2006 12:36:02 )
What about laundry. On the mountain, Jack launders his and Ennis' shirts in the stream on the day after the tent scene. Later, we see Alma using a washboard to do the family laundry in the kitchen. Then they move to an apartment over a laundromat. As time goes by, the laundering becomes more high-tech, but it still seems to stand for something primordial.
by - ulm89 (Sat Feb 11 2006 17:47:18 )
IMPORTANT:
I don't know if anyone noticed a parallelism... (maybe it's just in my mind dunno..) :
ennis finds the sheep dead, violently killed by another animal----> ennis remembers when he was a child and saw a man terribly killed by his father (more or less in the same position of the sheep)---->Jack dies beacause he was abandoned like the sheep and ennis didn't take care of him...
another thing: did anyone notice that the little cowboy on Jack's desk at the end of the film was made by ennis at the beginning?
did anyone also notice that Jack, even though he is much more active and "revolutionary" than ennis, often tries to imitate him? for eg when he says he's not a begger to the barman (ennis had told Jack something very similar when Jack had offered him some money)or when Jack marries that f....g Laureen only beacause Ennis was about to get merried to Alma...
by - RobertPlant (Sun Feb 12 2006 02:20:20 )
I agree about the meaning of the dead ship...
As for the little cowboy: Ennis was making just a horse (without cowboy) and it was pretty larger than the one on Jack desk.
Anyway everybody makes this association..maybe you could think they had similar objects, Ennis' room had to be more or less like the Jack's one, when he was a kid.
Finally I don't think Jack marries Lureen to imitate Ennis, but to "settle" down in every respect.
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Symbolism: the calves
by - pipedream 2 days ago (Thu Mar 16 2006 01:33:56 )
UPDATED Thu Mar 16 2006 08:38:29
I posted this in another thread yesterday, but thought it just fits in here:
Did anybody notice how Ennis mentions calves two times in this movie when talking about his work?
During Cassie's and Ennis' first conversation she asks him what he does for a living and he answers that until yesterday he was castrating calves (don't know the exact wording for I saw it dubbed). Why doesn't he just say he was a ranch hand? Of course it has a meaning. To castrate a calf means to turn in into a sexless being, only there to live and eat, put on weight and someday get eaten.
At that point in his life Ennis sort of is like a sexless being himself: his life reduced to mere existence, him being there only to eat and drink, smoke, sleep, go to work and pay for the kids. He is only a shell of a human being and a shadow of his former self, except for the time he can spend with Jack. However, these occasions are obviously getting even rarer as years go by. Their happy days are positively numbered.
And now, remember the supermarket scene earlier on? Before he leaves Alma with the kids he says he has to be there when the cows were going to calve: New life to be born, happy days with Jack still ahead! Upcoming opportunities to seize!
From the fact that years later he had to castrate the beasts rather than help them into this world you can tell that even his job is getting more and more depressing, just like his life.
If ever I should tell the moment: Oh, stay! You are so beautiful! Then you may cast me into chains, then shall I smile upon perdition! (Goethe)
Re: Symbolism: the calves
by - Front-Ranger 2 days ago (Thu Mar 16 2006 07:46:36 )
Great insight. Also, what about calf roping. Ennis' father was "a fine ~" The bartender asked Jack if he'd ever tried ~. Before you castrate em you have to catch em. Does the symbolism have to do with cutting short one's life and opportunities or restricting them to what society says is okay?
Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."
by - (name removed by request0 2 days ago (Thu Mar 16 2006 18:08:33 )
Eating elk: Jack has a mouthful (overly full)--Jack lived life more fully (bit off more than he could chew?). Ennis is nibbling off a bone--Ennis took whatever bones life threw at him; he never sought anything for himself.
by - reannawrites 1 day ago (Fri Mar 17 2006 12:30:01 )
This might not be very symbolic - but there were several cigarette butts in Lureen's ashtray in the scene with her and Jack before he leaves for his trip and is looking for his parka...I just felt it represented all of her repression and tension...non-stop smoking.
Great thread guys - some of these ideas above are truly amazing.
Add what you know to the list:
1) The sheep--Adam's most favored animal in Eden.
2) The murdered sheep - the end of Ennis' innocence. I posted this before on another <<
Ennis talks to Jack about having shot a cayote with "balls the size of apples" on one of his returns to the camp. This also amplifies the Eden theme with a "forbidden fruit" reference.
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - Countess_of_Moldovia (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:06:28 )
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I don't follow this board too closely so forgive me if I'm posting incorrectly or redundantly or whatever.
Sheep have always been a biblical sign of innocence. Christ refers to the church (the body of believers) as sheep, and he says "you must become like little children to follow me."
In short, sheep represent blind purity and innocence.
HOWEVER,
The metaphor is extended by the reference to Christ as the sacrificial sheep. He is also refered to as a Lion amongst other things, all depending on the particular aspect of his personality that is being discussed.
Jesus as the Lamb of God is the ultimate sacrifice - the blood that must be spilled to atone for the sins of the world.
I believe the dead sheep is used in both capacities here, first as a sign of the end of innocence (as someone once said) and as a foreshadowing of Jack's ultimate death, the blood that will be spilled on account of his love and "sacrifice" (I use that term metaphorically) for Ennis.
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14118
by - ThE_FiLmMaKer90 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:15:06 )
I really need everyone to go read this post:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/34552269
cheers
[email protected]
by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 09:21:40 )
breakfastonmars--you referred to Ennis folding Jr.'s sweater--notice how he did it--held it tucked under his chin, took both sleeves out and folded into the middle--like an embrace in and of itself, before folding it and putting it on shelf in his wardrobe
the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:44:18 )
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flickfan
the hanger hook--very well could symbolize a shepard's crook--but remember at the last reunion--I think in the story it is Jack that draws a comparison between a coat hanger used to open a car window (there is that allusion again) -- something about how it is bent almost back to original and does not show any ill effect of being undone and I am sorry I don't have that quote handy because it seems doubly strong with the effect of the shirts entertwined and embracing--not just each other but their own individual fates--
I don't see how that follows. Can you explain more?
Team Jolie
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:43:17 )
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dellaluvia
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---
2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.
Any better?
Re: Brokeback Mountain Symbols Thread (spoilers)
by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 16:54:26 )
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ejunk
Naw, Ennis was just carving a rough horse shape. There was no cowboy on top. Jack's 'cowboy' looked like a favorite childhood toy. I think it's just a symbol that both men wanted to be cowboys and neither quite made it.
flick
sorry my connection/explanation was confusing
I meant that 1--there was specific mention of a coat hanger in the original story during the last reunion/fight scene on the mountain when one of them --think it was Ennis but can't say for sure --compares their fight to a coat hanger that can be bent out of shape to pop open a car door through its window(again the window/door images) and then can be reshaped to its original form w/o showing any damage or change from the original---
I think the POV is the author's - couldn't say otherwise if it was Ennis or Jack's opinion since the short story is mostly Ennis' POV, but right after this section about the fight, it segues into Jack's POV.
2)in the movie the coat hanger is on inside of closet door with the two bloodstained shirts entertwined--I remember this second coat hanger as having a wooden crosspiece -- not a wire hanger-- so it is not the kind that can be used to jimmy a car door -- this relationship is now fixed, can't be changed from its original shape--won't be opening any more "windows" --since Jack is dead and Ennis has gone through his catharsis-- but it still supports and uplifts the two shirts, the symbols of their metaphysical, eternal embrace.
Ah, gotcha. Mmm, a possibility I grant you, but for this to make sense in the movie, there wo
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These threads are cool.
Concerning the contrast between the Thanksgiving turkey cutting scenes. .. when keeping in mind the form of turkey carving, we see Jack actually doing the main carving of the turkey with a real knife, and just after taking over the position of lead duck or whatever the father-in-law called it. This established Jack's masculinity and role as hero, (albeit a tragic one since he "saves" Ennis in the end through his own death).
Contrasting that to the other thanksgiving where Monroe is using an electric knife (though definitely accurate in establishing a period fad) where Ennis isn't even doing the carving, Lee is establishing Ennis as being compromised in his masculinity, playing second fiddle to someone who isn't even man enough to use a real knife to carve the turkey. His state is that of one who is fallen and in need of rescue, an angel with no wings.. .
next - the scene where Jack suggests shooting a sheep. Simply put, Ennis states that he's content to endure beans until the next allotment of food arrives, but Jack states "Well, I'm not". Beans symbolizing the poor, mundane and lowest desireable element of sustenance, fresh meat symbolizing bounty and richness, a wealth of existence. .. something Jack always reaches for while Ennis is afraid to do it. It's a metaphore of their future relationship, and indeed their lives.
Jack is the risk taker, willing to break rules, Ennis is the fearful one, who survives. But just barely.
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I just want to add that the above post starting "These threads are cool" was
by iamlaron (Sat May 20 2006 00:36:59)
and that the following question got posted -- which I think may have gotten its own thread later:
by BannerHill (Thu Jun 22 2006 10:49:21)
Why was there a pentagram pianted on the side of the barn outside of Jack's window?
Oracle, you totally rock. Right now I'm mostly just saving copies of threads off the other board, but I do plan to repost them here if I can possibly manage it. My copies are mostly recently saved, so they're missing Clancy and toycoon and Dozy and you.
TrollHammer