BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Brown Eyes on April 27, 2006, 10:01:53 pm

Title: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 27, 2006, 10:01:53 pm
Think of this thread as an homage to the "notice anything so subtle..." thread back on the old board.

Here are two relatively little details that always strike me as amazing flourishes to their particular scenes.

-I love that when Jack emerges from the tent after the first tent scene and approaches Ennis, his blue shirt remains un-tucked.  An amazing contrast to Ennis's compulsive "shirt-tucking" habit.   Jack's un-tucked shirt (in addition to his visibly worried/hurt facial expression) makes him seem incredibly vulnerable.

-In the reunion scene... I love when Ennis first enters the apartment after the big kiss he wipes his mouth!  I love that.


Anyone else have other favorite details?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ProwlAmongUs on April 27, 2006, 10:33:33 pm
I like the scene when Jack reaches over and gently touches Ennis' face ( I THINK after he says, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."). This really knocks me back on my heels. Jack is gentle and caring and this little gesture sums up his whole persona. I have to admit there are days when I wonder if *I* will ever get over this movie. I've never had a film/story have such an impact on me. I saw it opening day in the theater, and I'm still numb at times... :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: henrypie on April 27, 2006, 10:58:39 pm
That face-touch of Jack's is after Ennis tells him about seeing Earl's body.  If that's the one you mean.  The ear-grab, kinda?
I love that.

My all-time favorite subtle detail may be the bird flying over when Ennis nervously watches the white truck drive past when Jack has come up unannounced after Ennis's divorce.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on April 27, 2006, 11:00:44 pm
All time favorite:

The nose nuzzle after the reunion kiss....sigh
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ProwlAmongUs on April 27, 2006, 11:03:40 pm
That face-touch of Jack's is after Ennis tells him about seeing Earl's body.  If that's the one you mean.  The ear-grab, kinda?
I love that.

My all-time favorite subtle detail may be the bird flying over when Ennis nervously watches the white truck drive past when Jack has come up unannounced after Ennis's divorce.

That's the scene I meant; thanks for the clarification!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on April 28, 2006, 04:01:40 am
The nuzzle is my favourite, too.

There's another detail, in which Ennis does not what I expect him to too: it's the scene when he gets the first postcard from Jack. He washes his hands, picks the postcard and reads it. Then heads for the next room and we see him from behind. He puts his left hand to his back in a well-known manner. I always think he will tuck the shirt in (I love this mannerism). But no, he just wipes his hand at his shirt (cause he didn't use a towel after washing them). Always makes me laugh, because this time he does not tuck in the shirt.



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheyne on April 28, 2006, 05:47:40 am
Kudos to the nuzzle..  ahh the nuzzle...

Amanda, i LOVE your observation about the untucked shirt.. you are SO right.. it does make him seem suddenly so vulnerable.  Even if he was a shirt-tucker like Ennis, it was more important in that moment to get over and talk to Ennis and make some contact - any contact - after the sex. Somehow, I don't see Jack as a tucker. Its important to Ennis that everything is "right" where as Jack is more devil-may-care...

My favourite moment would have to be Jack's body-draping at the very start.. I cannot watch it without a slight moan of desire escaping my lips.  Every time.  :D

I also love the profile shot of Jake just before the "nobody's business but ours" line. You can see every emotion fleet over his face then.. he's already in love and he's just scared to death that it was just a one-time thing for Ennis, especially after the "one shot" line. He's debating how to keep the door open, so to speak and you can see the vulnerability again.. just amazing acting on Jake's part...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on April 28, 2006, 07:16:38 am
Favorite detail:   The nuzzle after the reunion kiss of course!

also,  love how you can see Ennis's lips move as he is reading Jacks first postcard.

Also,  when John Twist mentions Randall to Ennis, you see his nostrils flare in a moment of anger.   

Tell you what.....  for a low budget, Art house Film that this was supposed to be, this movie is chock full of the best acting, best scenery, best screenplay, etc etc.    The entire cast and crew just seemed to give us 110%.   
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: MaineWriter on April 28, 2006, 07:28:26 am
I love--in the motel scene, the way Ennis rubs Jack's arm--a little caress--while they are talking.

in tent scene 2, the little kiss that Ennis plants on Jack's chest.

And like David said, the nostril flare. How the heck did he do that?

L
xo
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: henrypie on April 28, 2006, 08:43:36 am
Here is an observation from the version of the movie I saw last night in a dream.... and a little bit of background... I saw it (in a dream, again) in a little mom-and-pop theater in an addition to a farmhouse down a dirt road in Western Maryland or maybe the Eastern Shore of Maryland... one of the red areas of the state, ten or twelve seats, freshly baked cookies for the patrons.... weird, nice.

The not-so-subtle dream-detail I noticed: "Gee, the Pepsi sign in the opening scene when Ennis jumps down from the truck is more in-your-face than I ever seemed to notice before."
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: chefjudy on April 28, 2006, 09:43:41 am
 :) this one always get to me:

when Jack drives up from Texas after the divorce and Ennis tells him that he has the girls that weekend, Jack is so caught up in the moment and anticipation of being with Ennis that he even has his tongue sticking out a little and then licks his lips - I'm never sure if it was intentional or not, but it says a lot about Jake and Ang if it was deliberate and then he ends up so crestfallen and weeps - I literally ache for Jack..................... :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 28, 2006, 10:25:14 am
Another detail from that scene (tho not lovable) is that after Ennis and Jack embrace, Jack brings his hand to Ennis neck as if he's going to pull him in for a kiss, but Ennis roughly knocks his hand away. You have to look quickly to see it, it just registered subconsciously for me the first dozen  ::) times I saw the film. But now, I see it and, Mr. Bill-like, I say, "oh no!"
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Kelda on April 28, 2006, 10:45:37 am
The hand in mouth after the divorce scene...My heart breaks for jack there...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: silkncense on April 28, 2006, 12:19:35 pm
Quote
Jack's body-draping at the very start.. I cannot watch it without a slight moan of desire escaping my lips.  Every time. 

I also love the profile shot of Jake just before the "nobody's business but ours" line. You can see every emotion fleet over his face then.. he's already in love and he's just scared to death that it was just a one-time thing for Ennis, especially after the "one shot" line. He's debating how to keep the door open, so to speak and you can see the vulnerability again.. just amazing acting on Jake's part...

I couldn't agree more.  And the latter is one of the few times we see how vulnerable Jack is - usually he tries to project a self confident, in control personality with Ennis. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on April 28, 2006, 12:42:18 pm
There's another detail, in which Ennis does not what I expect him to too: it's the scene when he gets the first postcard from Jack. He washes his hands, picks the postcard and reads it. Then heads for the next room and we see him from behind. He puts his left hand to his back in a well-known manner. I always think he will tuck the shirt in (I love this mannerism). But no, he just wipes his hand at his shirt (cause he didn't use a towel after washing them). Always makes me laugh, because this time he does not tuck in the shirt.

And the weird thing is, in the trailer he DOES tuck in his shirt! So why doesn't he in the movie? Maybe they (Ang, Heath, etc.) thought there were already too many shirt tuckings. Or ...

Is it just me, but -- let's see, how to put this delicately? I guess it's impossible -- does Ennis bolting from the room at just that moment, perhaps in combination with that hand gesture, somehow bring to mind the line from the story about how he wrang it out a hundred times thinking about Jack? I mean, Movie Ennis would never actually SAY that, but I'm sure that in fact it must have happened. And he's certainly thinking about Jack then. Maybe this is their subtle indirect tactful way of alluding to that.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But then, everything in this movie means something ...

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Kd5000 on April 28, 2006, 12:52:39 pm
a subtle homage.

When Ennis is checking out the pickup truck as it's driving by in the distance when Jack has come up after getting the divorce postcard.  It shows shows how paranoid Ennis really is.

You think the man or woman in the pickup truck thinks it's odd to see two guys talking together in a field? It just re-enforces how wary Ennis is of being seen with Jack. 

I like the whitewater imagery. I don't know if their is symbolism there, whitewater that is, but alot of the scenes between Jack and Ennis take place near water. I know, there suppose to be fishing, so it makes sense to camp out by water, but they weren't fishing.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: PatSinnott on April 28, 2006, 01:05:43 pm
I watched again last night on DVD, and noticed a detail that someone pointed out on imdb.  At the divorce, in the courtroom, Ennis sheds a tear in his left eye.  It doesn't actually fall out, just starts to drip over the edge of his eyelid.  Heath is so talented that he could do that, start tearing up on cue.  Whoa!  Look for it next time you watch, it's sooo cool.  It shows that he is so unhappy, even when getting the divorce, he's miserable.  I really don't think he wants to be alone, it's just he can't help it. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ednbarby on April 28, 2006, 02:45:43 pm
I love that, too, Pat.  (I watched it again last night, myself.  :))

After Jack says on the mountain, "Kept his secrets to himself, never taught me a thing, never once come to see me ride," he takes a swig from the whiskey bottle and then kind of smacks his lips.  The way he does that - partly as a reaction to the bite of the liquor, but mostly out of bitterness about his father's neglect - just stabs me in the heart.  I know I've felt that kind of bitterness toward my parents at different times in my life, and it's just so perfectly expressed there that I'm right back in that feeling every time.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on April 28, 2006, 03:12:04 pm
Another detail from that scene (tho not lovable) is that after Ennis and Jack embrace, Jack brings his hand to Ennis neck as if he's going to pull him in for a kiss, but Ennis roughly knocks his hand away. You have to look quickly to see it, it just registered subconsciously for me the first dozen  ::) times I saw the film. But now, I see it and, Mr. Bill-like, I say, "oh no!"


Ooh Ooh Ooh...I forgot about that one...love it
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: isabelle on April 28, 2006, 03:19:48 pm
One thing that made me jump first time I saw the film: in the morning after tent scene 1, as Jack is coming up to Ennis, Ennis cocks his gun to put it in its holster; I thought he was going to aim it at Jack, as if to say "don't you dare come near me again!, which could've worked given the hurt look on Jack's face.

Another detail I noticed from the start but never saw mentioned anywhere: near the flat above the laundromat where Ennis and Alma live, there is a big building with this sign on it: ELKS ! I think that is one of those details, like a wink at the viewer, signalling Jack's presence or upcoming arrival.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: sparkle_motion on April 28, 2006, 03:27:53 pm
I have something shameful to admit. I see you guys saying you watched the DVD last night and all this good stuff. I've only watched it 1 and 1/2 times since I've had it. :(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: slayers_creek_oth on April 28, 2006, 03:30:00 pm
I have something shameful to admit. I see you guys saying you watched the DVD last night and all this good stuff. I've only watched it 1 and 1/2 times since I've had it. :(

Hey I've only watched it twice.....only seen it a total of 4 times EVER!  Now thats shameful...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Kelda on April 28, 2006, 03:33:00 pm
I saw it twice at the cinema and only once since I got it but I've onlu had it a week! might be watching it tonight tho...its either that or brassed off!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: sparkle_motion on April 28, 2006, 03:45:29 pm
Brassed Off! There's a movie I haven't thought about in a long time. I loved it when I first saw it.
Speaking of Ewan, I saw a movie of his this weekend called Stay. Not so good.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: henrypie on April 28, 2006, 03:59:30 pm
Sparklepie,
I haven't watched the DVD yet.  No shame.  Just life.  Did Jack love Ennis less just because he didn't see him very often?

heart heart heart
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on April 28, 2006, 05:11:51 pm
Quote
And the weird thing is, in the trailer he DOES tuck in his shirt! So why doesn't he in the movie? Maybe they (Ang, Heath, etc.) thought there were already too many shirt tuckings. Or ...

Hi latjoreme,

I just watched the trailer twice. I'm sorry, I can't see Ennis tucking in his shirt in the trailer. For me, the shot looks exactly the same as in the movie: it looks as if he were tucking in his shirt a second later, as if he started to tuck it in - but then the scene in the trailer is cut to another scene. So you don't see what he actually does.
And in the movie it's wiping his hand, not tucking in the shirt.

But maybe I start splitting hairs here...No wonder in consideration of the rich symbolism ans subtleties Mr. Lee provides in this movie. Blame it all on Ang Lee... :laugh: He made the movie, so he is responsible for our obsession  ;)  (ok, there were some more people involved, but I won't enumerate them now - we all know them  ;D )

PS: great to see you here. It was one of your posts on the IMDB board, which gave me a very important insight (why Ang Lee doesn't give us more "happy scenes")
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: isabelle on April 28, 2006, 06:37:50 pm
Well I have just watched the DVD (2nd time since it arrived on Tuesday), and noticed a lovable detail that I had probably noticed subconsciously before, but this time it was very conscious:

Just after Ennis says his great line, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity" **, Jack hands him the bottle of whiskey, as if to say "I'll give you an opportunity, buddy". Indeed, Ennis takes it (the bottle/opportunity to come), and even says "thank you", hehe!

**: lines that have been immortalized on t-shirts by Jenny! Thanks Newyearsday, still thinking of the pics!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 28, 2006, 09:14:22 pm
Is it just me, but -- let's see, how to put this delicately? I guess it's impossible -- does Ennis bolting from the room at just that moment, perhaps in combination with that hand gesture, somehow bring to mind the line from the story about how he wrang it out a hundred times thinking about Jack? I mean, Movie Ennis would never actually SAY that, but I'm sure that in fact it must have happened. And he's certainly thinking about Jack then. Maybe this is their subtle indirect tactful way of alluding to that.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But then, everything in this movie means something ...

I quite like this idea.  It's a good explanation as to why he gets out of the kitchen so quickly.  I love the little up-tick of music as he leave the kitchen too.  A little sign of optimism.

-Another little detail I love... when the boys are up on brokeback moving the herd from the first location to the second... there's a long-shot scene of the landscape and the soundtrack is really doing all the work.  Then, a very clear, high-pitched and single bird call (maybe even an eagle or something) breaks into the guitar playing in lovely harmony with it.  That bird call seems like the pure sound of happiness right here.  It almost reminds me of the sound of someone cheering (it almost sounds like the word 'yay').

-On a completely different note... I love that Jack unfastens his belt with one hand in the first tent scene.  And yes, this makes it pretty clear that he's a lefty.
 :D



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on April 28, 2006, 10:37:10 pm
The Elks is an extremely conservative men's organzation--and that's what it means to me.

I love it when Alma, after Jack and Ennis have just driven out of the back yard going to the mountains, takes her hand from the baby's head and waves a little...
while she's still crying.
I love the expression on Jack's face when after he starts with the ear, moves to stroking Ennis's cheek, like he was thinking, man this is one sick, repressed puppy I got here, and what can I do? Comfort him, I guess..

I love the way tears come to Lureen's eyes, but don't fall, and she makes the tiny sound, after Ennis says "No m'am, we was heredin' sheep one summer on Brokeback, back in '63."

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 29, 2006, 12:25:50 am
The Elks is an extremely conservative men's organzation--and that's what it means to me.

Sure, that and the depressing state of the Elks building itself stand as great contrasts to what "elk" meant to Jack and Ennis on the mountain.  Still the word does seem to provide a clue that their renewed romance is right around the corner (reinforced maybe by the man in the black hat whom Ennis nearly runs over in his truck as he pulls into his driveway).  Up on brokeback, the elk hunt was one of their key, early bonding moments.  I love that Ennis allows himself to touch Jack directly following his little display of prowess in securing an elk/ food for Jack.  Jack tending to Ennis's wound following the bear was Jack's first attempt at physical contact.  And the elk "mini tussle" is Ennis's first.  Also, in the last argument scene between Jack and Ennis, when Ennis is trying to get Jack to warm up to the idea of November he specifically mentions elk to try to appease him.

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating, in the movie elk seems to = aphrodisiac. 

-here's a new detail (thinking of early moments of physical contact)- as they're setting up their second camp we see a long shot of Jack picking up that drift-wood log from the stream near the bridge and hauls it up on his shoulder.  Ennis comes over to him and seems to touch Jack on his shoulder or arm.  An interesting moment where Ennis is initiating a bit of intimacy.  A display of just how comfortable and friendly he's feeling towards Jack. It's funny that he doesn't seem to be coming to help carry the log... just to touch Jack.


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: bbm_stitchbuffyfan on April 29, 2006, 12:42:35 am
Ooh, I want to look for that log scene!

Quote
in tent scene 2, the little kiss that Ennis plants on Jack's chest.

Has anybody else seen this? I keep looking for it but I always miss it. Oh, well, it just gives my future viewings the opportunity to be even better.

Whenever he rushed out of the kitchen, I always thought he was going to go put the post-card in a safe place. But it seems so clear that Ennis left the room so fast, excited, and (taking care of the post-card, of course, as he still is 20 years later) masturbated.

I love Lureen's whimper during the phone call scene. I've heard you can see the nicotine stains on her teeth toward the end of the movie as well but I'm always crying too hard and end up missing it.

I love the 'weighing' camera move, brought up by CaseyCornelius on IMDB.

I love the use of wind! I love how it's always associated with Jack and it's still there after Jack dies, seen and heard, and through that we know Jack's spirit is still with Ennis. (Powerful.)

There are many more that I love... I'll add those later...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on April 29, 2006, 01:26:25 am
The Elks is an extremely conservative men's organzation--and that's what it means to me.
I love that Ennis allows himself to touch Jack directly following his little display of prowess in securing an elk/ food for Jack.  Jack tending to Ennis's wound following the bear was Jack's first attempt at physical contact.  And the elk "mini tussle" is Ennis's first.  Also, in the last argument scene between Jack and Ennis, when Ennis is trying to get Jack to warm up to the idea of November he specifically mentions elk to try to appease him.

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating, in the movie elk seems to = aphrodisiac. 

Say it as many times as you like, Amanda, it's a really amazing concept.

Also, I like the way you describe the touching scenes above. I really love that one after the elk gets shot. Jack praises Ennis and Ennis tries not to show it but you can tell he's pleased. Jack pushes him over in a way that just seems spontaneous and natural for Jack. Then you see Ennis go through that tiny moment of hesitation. It's like he quickly calculates and decides, yeah, I can do it, it's OK in this situation -- and when he gives that push you can tell how much he really wants just to touch Jack. And of course he combines it with a teasing insult, just so nobody gets the wrong idea ...

It's very, well, touching.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on April 29, 2006, 03:02:52 am
Hi Penthesilea! It's great to have you here!

I'll have to go back and watch that trailer again. Between theater viewings of the movie, I must have watched it a hundred times (as opposed to wringing it out a hundred times) before I discovered the message boards and YouTube were a more effective way to exercise my obsession. Since then, I haven't been back, so I'm probably remembering wrong.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 29, 2006, 03:23:52 pm
It's very, well, touching.

LOL, very witty.    :D

Heya bbm_stitchbuffyfan!  Yup, Ennis does give him a tiny little kiss on the chest in the 2nd tent scene before Jack rolls over on top.

new cute detail- I quite enjoy how careful Ennis is in his culinary efforts while he's still camp tender.  I love the scene where he seems to be taking great care to salt and season whatever it is he's frying over the campfire.   This is just as Jack is coming down off his horse, complaining about his herder job as normal.



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 29, 2006, 05:34:58 pm
atz, some of your favorite details are also some of mine! I like to think that bird cry in the canyon was that of an eagle. It's certainly a bird of prey of some kind. Oh, and in the first tent scene, not only did Jack unbuckle his belt but also unbuttoned his jeans with his left hand (I did'nt hear any zipper, but when Ennis did the same, I heard unzipping).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on April 29, 2006, 05:43:32 pm
The Elks is an extremely conservative men's organzation--and that's what it means to me.
I love that Ennis allows himself to touch Jack directly following his little display of prowess in securing an elk/ food for Jack.  Jack tending to Ennis's wound following the bear was Jack's first attempt at physical contact.  And the elk "mini tussle" is Ennis's first.  Also, in the last argument scene between Jack and Ennis, when Ennis is trying to get Jack to warm up to the idea of November he specifically mentions elk to try to appease him.

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating, in the movie elk seems to = aphrodisiac. 

Say it as many times as you like, Amanda, it's a really amazing concept.

Also, I like the way you describe the touching scenes above. I really love that one after the elk gets shot. Jack praises Ennis and Ennis tries not to show it but you can tell he's pleased. Jack pushes him over in a way that just seems spontaneous and natural for Jack. Then you see Ennis go through that tiny moment of hesitation. It's like he quickly calculates and decides, yeah, I can do it, it's OK in this situation -- and when he gives that push you can tell how much he really wants just to touch Jack. And of course he combines it with a teasing insult, just so nobody gets the wrong idea ...

It's very, well, touching.



yeah, it is. i never noticed that detail, until Amanda pointed it out. I love seeing that detail.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on April 29, 2006, 06:47:55 pm
I BELIEVE--pLease, someone watch it closely for me..sniff..that after the two pushes, and after Jacjk say 'don't wan't the Game and Fish catch us with no elk," there's another little bit of touching on both their parts as they staNd up--a SORT OF HOT DOG! WE GOT MEAT, YEAH! lET'S GET GOIN" TOUCH...

I'm svaing DVD #7 and #8 till my Toshiba gets home..made a pilgrimage to Target...it can't get any worse, so maybe it'll get better...oh: one's the widescreen, and one's the fullscreen...

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on April 29, 2006, 07:58:33 pm
I BELIEVE--pLease, someone watch it closely for me..sniff..that after the two pushes, and after Jacjk say 'don't wan't the Game and Fish catch us with no elk," there's another little bit of touching on both their parts as they staNd up--a SORT OF HOT DOG! WE GOT MEAT, YEAH! lET'S GET GOIN" TOUCH...

I'm svaing DVD #7 and #8 till my Toshiba gets home..made a pilgrimage to Target...it can't get any worse, so maybe it'll get better...oh: one's the widescreen, and one's the fullscreen...


You're right...just saw it.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on April 29, 2006, 10:53:39 pm
-On a completely different note... I love that Jack unfastens his belt with one hand in the first tent scene.  And yes, this makes it pretty clear that he's a lefty.
 :D

Thank you for that detail. On some other thread, a long time ago, I suggested that Jake/Jack was left-handed, based on his can-opening method, and turkey carving way. On further viewing I had second thoughts and felt a fool for having metioned it (I think it's on one of the I love everything threads in the archives). Anyways, thanks for that additional observation - (You gotta admit, he's opening the can o'beans in a rather weird way!)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on April 29, 2006, 10:57:37 pm
How about the little "Whoop, Whoop" noise Ennis makes to distract his girls shortly after the "If I had three hands I could" comment.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 29, 2006, 11:57:53 pm
I like to think that bird cry in the canyon was that of an eagle. It's certainly a bird of prey of some kind.

Heya Friend, I like the idea of it being an eagle too. It's sort of an oblique way of adding the eagle symbol that Proulx makes pretty evident in the story (i.e. Jack's eagle feather).

And, hey there Roland!  Yup, I remember all the old discussions about the left-handedness.  I think the can opener is a good example.  Now, all this begs the question... is Jake Gyllenhaal left handed?

OK, more details...
-I love that Ennis's excuse to Alma for wanting to stay out all night with Jack is that they might talk all night.  Has Ennis ever talked all night with anyone?  Would he be capable of that amount of conversation?  It's still very cute.

-and another... significantly more subtle observation.  OK, bear with me on this one.  When Jack first pulls up outside Aguirre's trailer at the very beginning and gets out to kick his truck... in the next shot we see his profile up close to the left in the frame and a "square" of grass waving in the breeze to the upper right in the same frame.   This "square" of waving grass is outlined by the top of the truck bed and the actual frame of the screen.  This image of the grass in the breeze is just so similar to the last scene in the movie after Ennis closes his closet door and we see the grass in the field waving outside the window frame.  Oh my.  The Jack=wind metaphor just knocks me out.  One of the most brilliant ideas ever. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: maggiesmommy GayLee on April 30, 2006, 12:25:22 am
my fav...ok, ONE of my favs..is in the tent after the first love scene..i take it is evening and Jack is in the tent laying down, shirt off..(MG)and Ennis is sitting by the fire...you can tell he is thinking deeply and struggling mightly...then he just gets up and walkes over to the tent, with his hat in his hand...the universal language for coming with an apology...kneels down and just silently looks at Jack, who sits up and the looks on their faces just rocks me...Jack touches Ennis' face and they kiss and so softly, Ennis says "I'm sorry and Jack says "it's alright, it's alright"...then the embrace...so much love and pent up emotion in that scene, really having nothing to do with the sex, but 2 human beings clinging to each other and erasing years of hurt and sadness...
it just destroys me every time i watch it..so much said, and very few words spoken...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 30, 2006, 01:16:14 am
Hey there, maggiesmommy!  Welcome to BetterMost. 

That was a nice post.  I love the hat-holding gesture too.  In addition to being sort of a gesture of apology, I see it as a very old-fashioned gesture of a gentleman.  The kind of gesture that would be most appropriate to the etiquette of courting in a bygone era.  And, the way Ennis holds the hat in front of him when he kneels down also serves as a last barrier or defense.  And, Jack just gently takes it from him, with no real resistance from Ennis.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on April 30, 2006, 06:18:52 am
Quote
-I love that Ennis's excuse to Alma for wanting to stay out all night with Jack is that they might talk all night.  Has Ennis ever talked all night with anyone?  Would he be capable of that amount of conversation?  It's still very cute.

I love this one, too. Ennis the chatterbox  ;). I wonder what Alma would have thought, if she hadn't seen them kissing a few moments before.

Another one I like very much. It's not really subtle, I think you all noticed it at the first viewing, but anyway, I just love it: Ennis's very first stolen glance at Jack under the rim of his hat outside Aguirre's trailer. Jack getting out of the car, coming to Ennis as if he wants to introduce himself - but Ennis puts his head down and his whole body language says 'No'. Jack decides different. Then Ennis steals a glance from under the hat's rim. This is the second Ennis wins my heart.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: maggiesmommy GayLee on April 30, 2006, 11:38:17 am
Thanks..its good to be here...
i never thought of the "gentleman thing, but its as clear as dya!! you're right!!!  it was a courtship gesture, and he probably didn't even realize it himself..how beautiful...
and yes..aslo a barrier, that was cast away in one loving gesture...
this is such a quiet, dignified and intelligent forum..thank you so much for your insights...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: fernly on April 30, 2006, 12:12:32 pm
I love this thread....

-I love that Ennis's excuse to Alma for wanting to stay out all night with Jack is that they might talk all night.  Has Ennis ever talked all night with anyone?  Would he be capable of that amount of conversation?
Hey Amanda,
There was a great thread on TOB (and of course, it's gone now) called "Ennis speaks a truth greater than he knows"...and he's doing that here.
While we all know what kind of communicatin is on Ennis' mind (and the rest of him) at that moment you describe, Jack is the one person that Ennis has in his life who he would (and has before) talk with all night, and that's another of the reasons they love each other.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: maggiesmommy GayLee on April 30, 2006, 12:17:28 pm
I love this thread....

-I love that Ennis's excuse to Alma for wanting to stay out all night with Jack is that they might talk all night.  Has Ennis ever talked all night with anyone?  Would he be capable of that amount of conversation?
Hey Amanda,
There was a great thread on TOB (and yeah, it's gone now) called "Ennis speaks a truth greater than he knows"...and he's doing that here.
While we all know what kind of communicatin is on Ennis' mind (and the rest of him) at that moment you describe, Jack is the one person in the world that Ennis has, and would, talk with all night, and that's another of the reasons they love each other.

i am just getting used to this board and how to use it...so apologies...i love the first glance too...jack just staring, then his head down, and the whew..you can see under his breath and under his hat...and yes, the stolen glance from Ennis..very subtle and furtive..which pretty much cements their relationship AND their personalities in about 30 seconds..i love ang
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on April 30, 2006, 12:49:29 pm
-On a completely different note... I love that Jack unfastens his belt with one hand in the first tent scene.  And yes, this makes it pretty clear that he's a lefty.
 :D

Thank you for that detail. On some other thread, a long time ago, I suggested that Jake/Jack was left-handed, based on his can-opening method, and turkey carving way. On further viewing I had second thoughts and felt a fool for having metioned it (I think it's on one of the I love everything threads in the archives). Anyways, thanks for that additional observation - (You gotta admit, he's opening the can o'beans in a rather weird way!)

I wonder if maybe Jake is a lefty. I remember seeing a picture of him learning to surf, and noticing he was leading with his right foot.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: FuzzyChanny on April 30, 2006, 12:53:40 pm
There was a topic on Jake's IMDB board a while back about whether he's a lefty, drawing on that he writes with his left in The Good Girl. But in most other thing's it's with his right, so I think we decided he might be ambidextrous.

I'll try find the topic.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on April 30, 2006, 03:06:24 pm
I just love the head lift.  When Ennis goes into the tent the first time and lays down, you see Jack slightly lift his head, probably deciding what to do.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Kelda on April 30, 2006, 03:47:42 pm
Brassed Off! There's a movie I haven't thought about in a long time. I loved it when I first saw it.
Speaking of Ewan, I saw a movie of his this weekend called Stay. Not so good.

Brassed Off rocks! I am a band geek in this typically British way.. I also play in a band which is a little family like this!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ednbarby on April 30, 2006, 05:31:50 pm
Amanda, I just wanted to mention that I love the Jack=wind metaphor, too.  I've made a study of it, and I find that every time he is either in a scene or it's clear Ennis is thinking about him, we hear the wind howling in the background (and sometimes in the foreground).  I love how it's almost at a fever pitch outside when Ennis is sitting on his bed in his undershirt with his eyes closed while Alma hugs him from behind, trying with all his might to pretend she is him.  Same as when he's in his trailer at the very end, and the wind is just whipping up a frenzy outside.

I also *love* that Aguirre says when Jack returns the next summer looking for Ennis:  "Well.  Look what the wind blew in."  Not look what the cat dragged in which is of course the most common way of saying the same thing, but what the wind blew in.

I should probably post this next bit in the most irrational reactions thread, but it follows here.  The wind down here in South Florida has been howling every day for months.  It's eerie and giving me a bad feeling about the upcoming hurricane season.  March is usually very blowy down here, but February and April aren't so much.  When it started up in February after I'd seen the movie a few times and discovered the wind metaphor, I walked outside one morning to get the paper, and it was whipping things up in such a Jack-like way, I just had to say out loud, "Hiya, Jack."

I'm not suffering from insanity - I'm quite enjoying it, actually.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on April 30, 2006, 07:49:29 pm
I do recall reading somewhere in an Ang Lee interview about the wind.   Ann Proulx always wrote how that the wind was always blowing in Wyoming.   Ang noticed this too, but had to use wind machines to get the desired effect on film.

Speaking of subtle things....  when Jack does enter Aguirres trailer that second time, not only does quaid say :"Look what the wind blew in"    but notice the ventilation fan built into the wall behind and above Aguirre.    When Jack opens the door to enter the fans spins wildly.    Again,  Ang Lee with the wind!   

Damn I love this movie.    I wish I could watch it more, but I am tired of crying! 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on April 30, 2006, 09:19:24 pm
I love how it's almost at a fever pitch outside when Ennis is sitting on his bed in his undershirt with his eyes closed while Alma hugs him from behind, trying with all his might to pretend she is him.  Same as when he's in his trailer at the very end, and the wind is just whipping up a frenzy outside.

Nice way to describe that, Barb.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 30, 2006, 10:46:55 pm
I love this thread....
-I love that Ennis's excuse to Alma for wanting to stay out all night with Jack is that they might talk all night.  Has Ennis ever talked all night with anyone?  Would he be capable of that amount of conversation?
Hey Amanda,
There was a great thread on TOB (and of course, it's gone now) called "Ennis speaks a truth greater than he knows"...and he's doing that here.
While we all know what kind of communicatin is on Ennis' mind (and the rest of him) at that moment you describe, Jack is the one person that Ennis has in his life who he would (and has before) talk with all night, and that's another of the reasons they love each other.

Hi fernly,
This is a point very well taken.  Yes, I agree that one of Jack's major charms for Ennis is his role as confidant.  Certainly, conversation and friendship are vital to their relationship.  But, still, it makes me chuckle to think that the first excuse that comes to our taciturn and stoic Ennis's mind is that they'll talk.  But, maybe it's true.  Maybe he's been dying to talk as much as he's been dying to "be with" Jack.


Here's my new idea about Jack and the wind.  I even went so far as to post this on the old "Jack and the Wind" imdb thread (one of my rare, relatively recent ventures back there).  So, in the beginning when Jack and Ennis are drinking beers in the bar Jack tells his story about his first summer on Brokeback.  He talks about the sheep dying in the storm and Aguirre scolding him as if Jack "was supposed to control the weather."  Well, if his nature symbol is the wind, then he is supposed to control the weather (since the wind/jet-stream is one of the most important factors in the weather).  I don't know what to make of this exactly.  But, maybe it has something to do with Jack always leading the way (when they're on horse back and when their making their initial ascent up Brokeback, Jack is almost always in front).  In fact, Jack leads the way when they walk to that first bar too.  Obviously, he leads the way with the first move in their relationship too.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on April 30, 2006, 11:33:13 pm
It's so small...but the owl hoots three times when Ennis picks up his (Jack's) blanket and heads for the tent. As usual, he kicks a utensil, so the first hoot is almost obscured...Is it O.K,. to talk about the things people with fullscreen see that people with widescreen don't (it's SUPPOSED to be the other way around)?--like: Ennis's wedding ring, all through the motel scene?

The difference between the way Ennis looks at Jack at the drop-off point, right after Jack has said, "Let's get goin', unless you want to sit around tyin' knots all day" and the way he looks at him when Jack's leaving camp and has a hard time getting his horse pointed in the right direction...he really likes him now.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 01, 2006, 12:14:37 am
Interesting point about the wedding ring.

Hey!  Can we start a discussion about instances of the number 3?  ;D
Remember those crazy old threads?  I've never heard the 3 hoots from the owl discussed before.

OK, has it ever taken anyone only 3 hours to cook Thanksgiving dinner?  The turkey would be severely undercooked.
 ::)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 01, 2006, 07:50:57 am
OK, has it ever taken anyone only 3 hours to cook Thanksgiving dinner?  The turkey would be severely undercooked.

Ha ha ha!    But from a mans point of view who has never prepared a Thanksgiving dinner, it just seems like three hours.      That is about the amount of time we perceive it takes to cook.   All the preparation time doesn't count to us.   We only count the hours we smell it cooking!     ::)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 01, 2006, 07:39:38 pm
My all-time favorite subtle detail may be the bird flying over when Ennis nervously watches the white truck drive past when Jack has come up unannounced after Ennis's divorce.

I wonder how many times they had to shoot that scene before they caught the bird flying over that truck.  It really is awesome.

OK, new detail-  I love the surreal coloring of the scene when Jack is tending the sheep his first night up on Brokeback and looks down towards Ennis's fire in the distance (the "Jack saw Ennis as night fire" moment.).  I love that even though the film is in color, that scene almost looks like it's in black and white... or more like black and purple or black and grey.  For a silent scene, it's just lovely and poetic.

ps.  For the record I've never cooked an actual Thanksgiving dinner either. lol   ::) :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: chefjudy on May 01, 2006, 09:11:53 pm
 :) trust me on this one guys, a full Thanksgiving dinner will take a lot longer than 3 hours - the turkey takes at least that long to roast (depends on the size of course) and don't even get me started on all the side dishes!!  My job is cooking so I leave all the clean up to everyone else - seems fair to me............. ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: newyearsday on May 01, 2006, 11:03:48 pm
Amanda, I just wanted to mention that I love the Jack=wind metaphor, too.  I've made a study of it, and I find that every time he is either in a scene or it's clear Ennis is thinking about him, we hear the wind howling in the background (and sometimes in the foreground).  I love how it's almost at a fever pitch outside when Ennis is sitting on his bed in his undershirt with his eyes closed while Alma hugs him from behind, trying with all his might to pretend she is him.   Same as when he's in his trailer at the very end, and the wind is just whipping up a frenzy outside.

I also *love* that Aguirre says when Jack returns the next summer looking for Ennis:  "Well.  Look what the wind blew in."  Not look what the cat dragged in which is of course the most common way of saying the same thing, but what the wind blew in.

I should probably post this next bit in the most irrational reactions thread, but it follows here.  The wind down here in South Florida has been howling every day for months.  It's eerie and giving me a bad feeling about the upcoming hurricane season.  March is usually very blowy down here, but February and April aren't so much.  When it started up in February after I'd seen the movie a few times and discovered the wind metaphor, I walked outside one morning to get the paper, and it was whipping things up in such a Jack-like way, I just had to say out loud, "Hiya, Jack."I'm not suffering from insanity - I'm quite enjoying it, actually.


Lovely lovely post, Barb. Howdy by the way. Your necklace should arrive in a couple of days. So, yes, I need to look for the wind blowing more in that Alma/Ennis scene in the bedroom; it's been mentioned before by EnnisLovesJack I think. And I love that you said 'Hiya, Jack' to the wind! *wimpers from the bittersweetness*. The whole "Love is a Force of Nature" thing just has so many layers. It's truely astounding how gorgeous that metaphor is.

I love this thread in general too. And Julie, there is a nice newish thread on the big board that Meryl started several weeks ago called the Number Three (I think it's called that.) It will be saved in the archives.

And here's my favorite un-talked about moment (at least to my knowledge--hope I'm not repeating someone else's thoughts): I always LOVE LOVE LOVE the shot of Jack looking for the blue parka in the closet, standing with his weight on one leg like that, cute butt, purple shirt, kinda annoyed in this adorable way b/c he's wantin a redline it but can't leave yet.

I love Jake's butt in that scene! not such a subtle detail, but very lovable!

 :D ;D :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 01, 2006, 11:24:56 pm
-I love that the BetterMost cans are blue and brown... sort of mirroring the signature colors for Jack and Ennis.

-I love that after Ennis's nose starts to bleed, right before the sucker punch, Jack caresses Ennis's face just like he does when he's about to kiss him in the second tent scene.

-And, now I have a question about a subtle detail.  Why does Alma go and get her purse after she sees Ennis and Jack kiss?  In her state of shock she goes and deliberately packs up her purse and has it ready.  Does she really even want to go out with them after wha she's seen?  Does she still think that dinner at the Knife and Fork is still an option?  Somehow I find this gesture of hers particularly heartbreaking in contrast to the pure joy going on between our boys.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: maggiesmommy GayLee on May 01, 2006, 11:27:50 pm
in the short story it says she is trying to delay Ennis' and JAcks departure by asking Ennis to go get her"smokes", he anticipates this and says before she can even finish her thoughts that if she needs smoles they are in the pocket of his blue shirt in the closet..
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on May 01, 2006, 11:31:13 pm
And, now I have a question about a subtle detail.  Why does Alma go and get her purse after she sees Ennis and Jack kiss?  In her state of shock she goes and deliberately packs up her purse and has it ready.  Does she really even want to go out with them after wha she's seen?  Does she still think that dinner at the Knife and Fork is still an option?  Somehow I find this gesture of hers particularly heartbreaking in contrast to the pure joy going on between our boys.

Amanda, I just took it as something to keep herself busy with her hands, while she's mulling things over - I know - pretty lame, but that was my train of thought on the subject. Does everything have to have a meaning?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: maggiesmommy GayLee on May 01, 2006, 11:36:26 pm
copied and pasted from my downloaded copy of teh short story...i was wrong about delaying the departure, it was to bring him back sooner...
"Sure enough," Alma said, taking a dollar bill from her pocket. Ennis guessed she was going to ask him to get her a pack of cigarettes, bring him back sooner.
"Please to meet you," said Jack, trembling like a run-out horse.
"Ennis -- " said Alma in her misery voice, but that didn't slow him down on the stairs and he called back, "Alma, you want smokes there's some in the pocket a my blue shirt in the bedroom."
They went off in Jack's truck, bought a bottle of whiskey and within twenty minutes were in the Motel Siesta jouncing a bed. A few handfuls of hail rattled against the window followed by rain and slippery wind banging the unsecured door of the next room then and through the night.
 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on May 01, 2006, 11:45:38 pm
I read an interview with Michelle Williams about the purse detail (and I can't find it any more). It was apparently her idea -- it was supposed to be a sort of instinctive reaction, that Alma would reach for one comforting thing that was clearly hers... and that was her purse. Alma couldn't make sense of what she just saw, but the things in her purse were real and solid and hers and made sense, and so she reached for them.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 02, 2006, 12:01:09 am
Does everything have to have a meaning?

Heya Roland... yes!  ::) :D :-\ ;)

nakymaton... I like your suggestion/ Michelle's suggestion.  That makes good sense and makes it more interesting.  I didn't really think of the purse action as being connected with the smokes question (either in the story or in the film).  I think she was asking Ennis to get cigarettes and come back with them hoping that it would somehow make him come home quicker.  I don't think she was thinking of going out for them on her own... she would have had to drag the girls along etc.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on May 02, 2006, 12:36:19 am
-here's a new detail (thinking of early moments of physical contact)- as they're setting up their second camp we see a long shot of Jack picking up that drift-wood log from the stream near the bridge and hauls it up on his shoulder.  Ennis comes over to him and seems to touch Jack on his shoulder or arm.  An interesting moment where Ennis is initiating a bit of intimacy.  A display of just how comfortable and friendly he's feeling towards Jack. It's funny that he doesn't seem to be coming to help carry the log... just to touch Jack.

Yes!  I have been meaning to mention this and ask y'all's thoughts on this moment for months.  This happens before the first tent scene.  It seems very relaxed and affectionate.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on May 02, 2006, 02:26:11 am
chefjudy--well, I had to do the washing up as well...the entire Thanksgiving day is one long cook and gorge...I don't do it anymore...I'm 71 today, and I've had ENOUGH THANKSGIVING to last a lifetime or two...at first, I hardly looked at the Thanksgiving scenes in Brokeback, till I started noticing interestiong little things that had nothing to do with Thanksgiving.

Are there 3 full moons in the movie..,or 4?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on May 02, 2006, 02:47:52 am
chefjudy--well, I had to do the washing up as well...the entire Thanksgiving day is one long cook and gorge...I don't do it anymore...I'm 71 today, and I've had ENOUGH THANKSGIVING to last a lifetime or two...at first, I hardly looked at the Thanksgiving scenes in Brokeback, till I started noticing interestiong little things that had nothing to do with Thanksgiving.

Are there 3 full moons in the movie..,or 4?

there were 3 full moons.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 02, 2006, 07:21:21 am
there were 3 full moons.

Three?    Lets see... We see Ennis's moon when he's washing up.

             Then Jacks moon when he's washing their clothes by the stream.

             Oh yeah!   two more moons when they are skinny dipping!   

             You are wrong.  That is four!    ;D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: slayers_creek_oth on May 02, 2006, 01:21:31 pm
I don't know if this has already been discussed but.....

I part when just before Ennis leaves the Twist house John Twist says 'tell you what...we got a family plot and he's goin in it'....Mrs. Twist grabs her neck/collarbone and sort of rubs it...it is almost as if his (John Twist) words are chokin her....you know what I mean? 

Just a little detail that I've always noticed...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on May 02, 2006, 04:54:59 pm
there were 3 full moons.

Three?    Lets see... We see Ennis's moon when he's washing up.

             Then Jacks moon when he's washing their clothes by the stream.

             Oh yeah!   two more moons when they are skinny dipping!   

             You are wrong.  That is four!    ;D

David!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: You :laugh: slay me!!!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Now that's funny!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
But you forgot about the ASStral (sp?) moons!  :-*
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on May 02, 2006, 05:28:06 pm
I don't know if this has already been discussed but.....

I part when just before Ennis leaves the Twist house John Twist says 'tell you what...we got a family plot and he's goin in it'....Mrs. Twist grabs her neck/collarbone and sort of rubs it...it is almost as if his (John Twist) words are chokin her....you know what I mean? 

Just a little detail that I've always noticed...


Also, "tell you what..."  same words his son used when telling Ennis he missed him. :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on May 02, 2006, 06:48:08 pm
there were 3 full moons.

Three?    Lets see... We see Ennis's moon when he's washing up.

             Then Jacks moon when he's washing their clothes by the stream.

             Oh yeah!   two more moons when they are skinny dipping!   

             You are wrong.  That is four!    ;D

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ednbarby on May 02, 2006, 07:26:08 pm
Lovely lovely post, Barb. Howdy by the way. Your necklace should arrive in a couple of days. So, yes, I need to look for the wind blowing more in that Alma/Ennis scene in the bedroom; it's been mentioned before by EnnisLovesJack I think. And I love that you said 'Hiya, Jack' to the wind! *wimpers from the bittersweetness*. The whole "Love is a Force of Nature" thing just has so many layers. It's truely astounding how gorgeous that metaphor is.

And here's my favorite un-talked about moment (at least to my knowledge--hope I'm not repeating someone else's thoughts): I always LOVE LOVE LOVE the shot of Jack looking for the blue parka in the closet, standing with his weight on one leg like that, cute butt, purple shirt, kinda annoyed in this adorable way b/c he's wantin a redline it but can't leave yet.

I love Jake's butt in that scene! not such a subtle detail, but very lovable!

Aw, thanks, sweetie!  And I've, uh, noticed Jake's butt in that scene, too...

Here's another lovable subtle detail I can't believe I've never really noticed/thought about until just last night when I was watching it yet again:

Both times when Ennis and Jack embrace face to face - in the reunion scene and the after the divorce scene, we hear a soft but definite moan eminate from one of them upon coming together - the kind of sound one makes when a long-unquenched thirst has just been satisfied - and I believe it's coming from Ennis the first time and Jack the second.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: maggiesmommy GayLee on May 02, 2006, 08:04:58 pm
i love the subtle wind in the very tops of the trees as Ennis is leaving the house in Lightening flats with the shirts..like Jack is there, in the wind.and annther observation.of course, letf to ones interpretation...i think when mrs twist is looking at Ennis adn rubbing her throat...she is hearing the old man, and she is giving Ennis a very definate "look" like she was willing him to understand waht she was unable to say...he is looking back very intently, she says, you come see us again, yo hear? ennis nods and i think it is more in understanding of what she is trying to tell him than affirmative about coming back to visit...i she was silently saying you come back and i'll make sure you have jack's ashes to take to brokeback..its what my only son wanted and i will make it happen...
she seemed, from the first moment she saw Ennis, to know just who he was and the importance of him being there... i'm sure she and jack were close, she probably tried to protect him from the old sonofa bi*h all his life and i think he told her about Ennis...sought out her advice..confided to her..you can tell she loved him unconditionally...but was still battling the old man and had probably been the reciepent of his abuse too...
and Ennis never stopped loving jJack, even after the old man's "stories"  i think he embellished it too....just to hurt Ennis and through him, Jack, even in death...old sob
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ednbarby on May 02, 2006, 10:38:49 pm
maggiesmom, you got it.  Completely.  Mrs. Twist knows that the love of her son's life is in her house.  She wants to keep him there as long as possible so as to keep a piece of her beloved son alive - hence the "You come back and see us" and the grasping at her own throat.  But we know Ennis will never come back - he's seen all he needs to see.  And really, so does she.  That's what so overwhelmingly (in my case, anyway) heartbreaking about this scene.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 02, 2006, 10:42:46 pm
Mrs. Twist knew those shirts were there.   Thats why you see her smile when Ennis comes back down to the kitchen.  She wanted him to find the shirts.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: slayers_creek_oth on May 02, 2006, 10:47:55 pm
Mrs. Twist knew those shirts were there.   Thats why you see her smile when Ennis comes back down to the kitchen.  She wanted him to find the shirts.

Yeah I agree.....I think thats the main reason she wanted him to go up there....to find the shirts...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on May 02, 2006, 11:37:24 pm
And yet, in my movie addiction, I don't want to forget that Jack's mother hass NOTHING TO DO WITH Ennis taking the shirts away in the shory story; for all we know, he snuck them out under his jacket (though logic would suggest that she jknew they were there, unless they were very well hidden in that little space...)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: TJ on May 03, 2006, 05:54:51 pm
Yeah I agree.....I think thats the main reason she wanted him to go up there....to find the shirts...

If I had not read the Annie Proulx short story several weeks before I saw the movie, I might agree with both of you in that.

But, I really did not think the AP Mrs. Twist of Lightning Flat even knew the shirts existed in the condition which Ennis found them. I mean I don't think that she even knew Jack had hidden the shirts in the first place. Some parents do trust their children and don't go snooping through their children's belongings after they become teenagers. My own mother who believed in the Pentecost (she was a Pentecostal, too) was one of those parents.

In the story, the hidden shirts are hanging on a nail in the jog of Jack's closet which has no door but a cretonne fabric curtain on a string, making a makeshift closet in the room itself.

When Ennis hangs the shirts on the nail that he drove into his trailer wall, they are ON a wire hanger.

Annie Proulx never states how Ennis got the shirts out of the Twist house.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 03, 2006, 06:09:49 pm
I don't think Mrs. Twist's looking in her dead son's closet need be considered a sign of distrust. Nor can I imagine that she wouldn't know the shirts were in there. Most parents whose child has died would head into their bedroom at some point and look at all their things.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: j.U.d.E. on May 03, 2006, 06:43:12 pm
[Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I repeat things that have already been mentioned]

I love when early in the film we see Jack up in the mountains at night, looking down at where Ennis is (you can see the fire and the smoke). I think it's one of the several scenes where we are 'told' that Jack takes an interest in Ennis.

I love when we see Ennis look up at the mountains where Jack's herding sheep. Again, very early in the film, when they haven't really gotten to know each other, but already wonder, worry about the other. Totally cute!

I love to see the fire flames in the back, between Ennis and Jack in the 2nd tent scene. It's like there to keep them warm in this wonderfully gentle scene. Love it how Jack strokes Ennis' ear..

Ennis frowns a lot(!) but he doesn't frown when Jack kisses him hard in the second tent scene. Love it.

[Off-topic question (again, sorry if it was discussed before..) - does none of them wear (Ennis and Jack) underwear? They have shirts under their shirts, but do they wear shorts, knickers, pants, briefs.. or whatever it's called? Ennis slips out of his jeans (when he washes himself) and is naked underneath, right? And in the first tent scene, it doesn't look like Jack is wearing underwear..]
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: chefjudy on May 03, 2006, 06:49:18 pm
 :)
Quote
I love to see the fire flames in the back, between Ennis and Jack in the 2nd tent scene. It's like there to keep them warm in this wonderfully gentle scene.


I remember reading on the OB that the fire in the second scene was like another character in the scene,  and the symbolism of the fire was very obvious, especially with what happens next...............
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: TJ on May 03, 2006, 07:06:32 pm
In the original short story, Jack notices, when Ennis strips to warsh everything he can reach, that Ennis is not wearing underwear nor socks. That implies that Jack is wearing them.

Oh, in regard to whether Mrs. Twist looked through Jack's left behind belongings, some people have to wait a long time after a loved one, even a child, before they sort through them. For some people, the grief and bereavement process lasts a long time. While Jack's mother never said that her adult son helped her in the house, only that he helped his father on the ranch, I believe that when clean clothing was put in Jack's closet, it was Jack who took it upstairs. Annie Proulx's Mrs. Twist was recovering from an operation when Ennis showed up at her home.

It was more that a year after my late partner/husband, Ed, died before I got any professional help with the loss of Ed and it took few months of weekly sessions to get to where I could be get on with his loss. But, then by that time, I had another big problem I had gotten assaulted from behind and hit in the head several times. Then I had to continue therapy related to that trauma.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 03, 2006, 10:42:12 pm
I don't think Mrs. Twist's looking in her dead son's closet need be considered a sign of distrust. Nor can I imagine that she wouldn't know the shirts were in there. Most parents whose child has died would head into their bedroom at some point and look at all their things.

Well, that house is so small and spare that I'm sure Jack's Mom knows every inch of it.  This is probably especially true since it's hard to imagine John Twist helping much with housekeeping chores.  And, yes, through mourning Jack (and maybe even just missing him while he wasn't home when he was still alive) she probably would have looked in his room a number of time.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: TJ on May 04, 2006, 01:41:01 am
 
Quote
The old man said, "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is. He thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot."    Jack's mother ignored this, said, "He used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas, and help his daddy on the ranch for a week fix the gates and mow and all. I kept his room like it was when he was a boy and I think he appreciated that. You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."

To some people, the phrase "I kept it like it was" can mean "I left it like it was and did not move a thing." When Ennis went into Jack tiny and hot bedroom, he did not see into the makeshift closet created by upholstery fabric (cretonne) on a string. I have heard people say that while the kept the surfaces clean and dusted in a deceased child's room, they did not touch or look at anything in the drawers and the closets in the room for a very long time; it bothered them too much to do that.

I know some of these things because I attended a group "grief and bereavement" support group where such things were said, when I finally got around to handling my own situation.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: maggiesmommy GayLee on May 04, 2006, 03:32:55 am
i just watched the shirt scene again...Mrs Twist was in no way surprised at Ennis having the shirts..in fact i get the impresion that she EXPECTED him to have them, and that it was her purpose for sending him up.
The scene:
Ennis walks into the room, side glances at Mr Twist, walks up to Mrs Twist, kinda holds out the rolled up shirts toward her a bit, and just looks imploringly at her...she nods her head slightly, her eyes are smiling, she knows exactally what he has and why,and gets a grocery sack, much like the sack he took to Brokeback with all his wordly posessions in it that first summer, and puts the shirts into it, she never questions him about it, she doesn't react in a way that would suggest that she was surprised to see them...she just acts satisfied that it has turned out the way whe hoped it would...that sack  now held the only worldly posessons that meant anything at all to him....his only tangeable link to Jack...   
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on May 04, 2006, 08:45:11 am
she just acts satisfied that it has turned out the way whe hoped it would...that sack  now held the only worldly posessons that meant anything at all to him....his only tangeable link to Jack...   

 :'( :'( :'(

It struck me, last night, that Jack's mom gave Ennis something that was more a piece of Jack than the ashes would have been.

The ashes may have gone into the cemetary, but Jack's heart went where it had always been.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 04, 2006, 08:59:59 am
Exactly!    Those shirts have been up there for 20 years.   With Jack going up to see his folks a few times a year after visiting Ennis, you can be sure at some point he told his Momma about the shirts and that he didn't want them found by his father. 

Or perhaps like any good mother, she was up in his room cleaning, maybe even took down some of the clothes in the closet to wash and found the shirts by mistake.   

Either way, by the ffact she encouraged him to go up to the room and her smile when he came down with the shirts tells me she knew they were there and special to Jack.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 04, 2006, 12:38:39 pm
Also, it's a testament to her sensitivity that she knew right away not to wash the shirts or put them on two separate hangers (as some good moms might do), that she somehow grasped the significance of the symbolism, and put two and two together when Ennis showed up.

Course, she'd had a few other clues over the years, such as Jack's talk of bringing Ennis Del Mar up to the ranch. And maybe she recognized that one of the shirts wasn't Jack's.

But still. Not all mothers would think through everything that carefully. So I do think she meant him to find them.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: TJ on May 04, 2006, 05:03:16 pm
Many of the "lovable subtle details" of the finished movie product are not even found in Annie Proulx's original story.

Some of the movie's subtle details contradict Annie Proulx's own subtle literary details, too.

If I had never read the Brokeback Mountain short story before I saw the movie, I would have a different attitude toward what I saw on the big screen and I see on the DVD at home.

I don't dislike the movie's subtle details as such; I just feel that sometimes it is like seeing a right-wing "Christian" fundamentalists ideas about what they think is in the Bible on a movie/TV screen.

Since I did grow up mostly in the country and have lived in and been in houses just like Annie Proulx described the house on the John C. Twist, Sr. ranch, and there were even MAKE-SHIFT closets like the one in the book, and I knew people who were like the Twist folks, I just see things differently than many of the city folks in this BetterMost forum.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ednbarby on May 04, 2006, 05:16:38 pm
Also, it's a testament to her sensitivity that she knew right away not to wash the shirts or put them on two separate hangers (as some good moms might do), that she somehow grasped the significance of the symbolism, and put two and two together when Ennis showed up.

Course, she'd had a few other clues over the years, such as Jack's talk of bringing Ennis Del Mar up to the ranch. And maybe she recognized that one of the shirts wasn't Jack's.

But still. Not all mothers would think through everything that carefully. So I do think she meant him to find them.

Even if he never told her about them, she would know that Jack would never wear a shirt like Ennis'.  His shirts were always solid.  When you watch the other stuff hanging there, there are a couple of coats and solid shirts.  A loving mama would recognize immediately that it wasn't his shirt but another man's, and she'd have already known Jack was gay by her very lovingness and acceptance of him.  Add to that, as you say, his talk of Ennis Del Mar, and she'd have it all put together.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 04, 2006, 07:14:17 pm
OK, here's an LSD (loveable subtle detail) that I don't recall seeing elsewhere, or at least not recently:

The little frown of concentration on Ennis' face in the motel scene that shows how closely he is listening when Jack is talking. (Compare that to Alma talking, when often he only half-listens.)

Then he asks Jack, "The army didn't get ya?" using the exact words that Jack had used when they left Signal. Suggesting that Ennis has gone over and over that sad conversation in his mind -- and perhaps worrying about the prospect of Jack's getting drafted -- for four years.


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 04, 2006, 09:00:21 pm
Then he asks Jack, "The army didn't get ya?" using the exact words that Jack had used when they left Signal. Suggesting that Ennis has gone over and over that sad conversation in his mind -- and perhaps worrying about the prospect of Jack's getting drafted -- for four years.

Good one, Friend!  I also, like that he clearly has been worrying about that punch for 4 years too...  also probably turning that "confusing tussle" over and over in his mind.  It's probably a relief for him to resolve that issue and get some closure on how they left things at the end of the Brokeback summer.  It's cute to realize that by the time of the reunion Jack doesn't seem too bothered about the punch anymore.  He seems to be a pro at letting hurtful things roll off of him.

OK, new totally unrelated details-
I love every shot when we see either Jack or Ennis carrying a lamb around with them up on their horse.  Absolutely adorable.  I also love the scene where Jack is picking something out of the hoof of a lamb that's lounging on his lap.  I love how relaxed that sheep looks.  I also love that Ennis is just sitting their smoking. 

This just feeds into my whole thing about Jack being equated with the lambs and the idea that Ennis feels such a deep sense of duty to protect them and look after them.  Awww....
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: moremojo on May 05, 2006, 10:58:31 pm
  I also love the scene where Jack is picking something out of the hoof of a lamb that's lounging on his lap.  I love how relaxed that sheep looks.  I also love that Ennis is just sitting their smoking. 

This just feeds into my whole thing about Jack being equated with the lambs and the idea that Ennis feels such a deep sense of duty to protect them and look after them.  Awww....
I like this little moment too, Amanda, and like how you articulate how Ennis may already be growing more protective of Jack, even at this early stage. I like the confidence that Jack exudes here in performing his task, and the respect and casual interest with which Ennis regards the scene.

Here's another little thought that I just had yesterday, for the first time. This can only remain speculation, of course, but I wondered if Ennis's initial complaint about the harmonica (more specifically, Jack playing the harmonica) might have hidden his longing to have Jack engage him in conversation. He's trying to engage Jack's attention when commenting on the tent, and Jack does interrupt his playing to respond to Ennis. Just a thought.

Scott
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on May 05, 2006, 11:53:10 pm
Here's another little thought that I just had yesterday, for the first time. This can only remain speculation, of course, but I wondered if Ennis's initial complaint about the harmonica (more specifically, Jack playing the harmonica) might have hidden his longing to have Jack engage him in conversation. He's trying to engage Jack's attention when commenting on the tent, and Jack does interrupt his playing to respond to Ennis. Just a thought.

interestingly enough, there's a reversal in dynamic between the boys in that scene. It's Ennis complaining and wanting to fix the tent, but Jack is the one that says we'll just stand it.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 06, 2006, 12:00:32 am
good point starboardlight.  moremojo, I do like the idea that Ennis might be sort of *jealous* of that harmonica because it's causing Jack to be distracted and not talk to him.  cute.

About the lambs and Ennis's sense of being protective... I think this is one detail in Proulx's story that seems important (and it comes through in the film in varying ways) that Ennis seems to have felt very guilty that he wasn't there to help/ protect Jack at the time of his death.  Clearly Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered... so on one hand Ennis feels guilty that he wasn't there to protect Jack from becoming a victim of "predator loss" ... and on the other hand if Jack died due to the accident (drowning in his own blood) Ennis is mad and feels guilty that no one (not even Ennis himself) was there to roll Jack over to save him.  This is quite explicit in the phone call episode with Lureen in Proulx's story.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 08, 2006, 01:35:06 am
About the lambs and Ennis's sense of being protective... I think this is one detail in Proulx's story that seems important (and it comes through in the film in varying ways) that Ennis seems to have felt very guilty that he wasn't there to help/ protect Jack at the time of his death.  Clearly Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered... so on one hand Ennis feels guilty that he wasn't there to protect Jack from becoming a victim of "predator loss" ... and on the other hand if Jack died due to the accident (drowning in his own blood) Ennis is mad and feels guilty that no one (not even Ennis himself) was there to roll Jack over to save him.  This is quite explicit in the phone call episode with Lureen in Proulx's story.

Too sad, Amanda. You're right, though. Ennis' protectiveness of Jack gets underestimated because in most cases it's Jack nurturing Ennis when Ennis goes through some emotional crisis. But Ennis was protective enough about Jack to order soup, and to worry when he saw a storm approaching as Jack was on the mountain ... I think it's very clear in the story and pretty clear in the movie that he feels terrible about that. Especially because his refusal to live with Jack was based (or at least partly based) on the fear of this very outcome.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 08, 2006, 12:27:02 pm
I'm not underestimating his sense of protectiveness over Jack.  No, I think that when he's around Jack I think he's super protective.  I'm sure his whole thing about living apart has a lot to do with his sense of protectiveness.  He thinks he's sparing Jack and himself from homophobic violence.  It's just that in that instance on the phone, thinking about Jack's death, he feels guilty for not being there.  The lamb on the mountain top died when Ennis wasn't there looking after it... just like Jack died when Ennis wasn't around to help out.  So, yes, definitely Jack is the "nuturing" one while Ennis is the protecitve on.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 08, 2006, 12:37:27 pm
The lamb on the mountain top died when Ennis wasn't there looking after it... just like Jack died when Ennis wasn't around to help out.

Exactly. I think that scene foreshadowed Jack's fate. And Ennis' guilty and dismayed expression foreshadows his feelings at the end. In fact, to the extent that I'm willing to believe we're supposed to "know" that Jack was murdered (and I have budged a little in that direction), it's the slaughtered sheep -- immediately followed by Jack washing the shirt and looking vulnerable -- that I find most persuasive.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 08, 2006, 08:25:57 pm
I'm finding the sheep metaphor increasingly poignant the more I keep thinking about it.  It's now right up there with the wind as my favorite symbol in the film.  Just brilliant.

OK... a new detail...  I love how Ennis sneaks a mischievous glance at Jack out of the corner of his eyes as he's sipping from his cup in the "my dad thought rodeo cowboys was all f*** ups" conversation.  You can tell he's trying to push Jack's buttons or see how far he can tease him...  A cute and early playful moment out of Ennis.
Adorable.
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: slayers_creek_oth on May 08, 2006, 08:29:45 pm
OK... a new detail...  I love how Ennis sneaks a mischievous glance at Jack out of the corner of his eyes as he's sipping from his cup in the "my dad thought rodeo cowboys was all f*** ups" conversation.  You can tell he's trying to push Jack's buttons or see how far he can tease him...  A cute and early playful moment out of Ennis.
Adorable.
 :D

Agreed!  And when Jack says "the hell they are" Ennis has this "prove me (and my dad) wrong" look on his face.....as if he's challengin him.....something I've always noticed...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on May 08, 2006, 08:32:53 pm
I may have posted this already, but the one thing I noticed and loved from the first viewing, is the slight head lift Jack does when Ennis lays down next to him in the first tent scene.
I could actually hear the wheels in his head turning.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: slayers_creek_oth on May 08, 2006, 08:34:36 pm
I may have posted this already, but the one thing I noticed and loved from the first viewing, is the slight head lift Jack does when Ennis lays down next to him in the first tent scene.
I could actually hear the wheels in his head turning.

You mean when Jack lifts his head and looks back slightly at Ennis with his eyes?  That what your talkin about? 

If so I've always noticed that too.....
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on May 08, 2006, 09:21:59 pm
You mean when Jack lifts his head and looks back slightly at Ennis with his eyes?  That what your talkin about? 

If so I've always noticed that too.....

Oh yeah, that's the one.  It's done with such subtlety, you blink, you miss.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: slayers_creek_oth on May 08, 2006, 09:41:02 pm
anyone have a the screen cap right before this?

Nope can't say as I have.......it almost looks as if Ennis is holdin Jack.....
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 08, 2006, 10:50:50 pm
Nope can't say as I have.......it almost looks as if Ennis is holdin Jack.....

This one?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: slayers_creek_oth on May 08, 2006, 10:52:56 pm
This one?

Yep.....and in that pic it looks as if Jack is enjoying Ennis' embrace a little too much.....LOL
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: DeeDee on May 08, 2006, 10:59:51 pm
so dark...I want the cap before this one
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 12, 2006, 06:28:25 pm
Among the subtle details that I love the most are the expression changes on Ennis' face in the last few scenes that, though almost imperceptible, suggest surging emotions. Somehow he is able to move his face half a millimeter and convey anything from hope to hearbreak. For example, when Lureen mentions Brokeback as being "where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring," he manages to give the slightest hint of a smile as he remembers the source of the phrase, while still looking distraught. Again, when John Twist mentions Jack's plans to ranch with Ennis, he reacts with -- well, it can hardly be called a smile, more like his face slightly brightens, but you can see that he finds knowing that comforting. And of course his face darkens a second later, when he hears about Randall, but again, just slightly -- plus the flared nostrils -- yet we see how devastating that news is.

And the range of expressions he goes through after hearing Alma Jr. say her fiance loves her -- well, that's my OTHER favorite two seconds of the movie.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 12, 2006, 10:08:12 pm
Again, when John Twist mentions Jack's plans to ranch with Ennis, he reacts with -- well, it can hardly be called a smile, more like his face slightly brightens, but you can see that he finds knowing that comforting. And of course his face darkens a second later, when he hears about Randall, but again, just slightly -- plus the flared nostrils -- yet we see how devastating that news is.

And the range of expressions he goes through after hearing Alma Jr. say her fiance loves her -- well, that's my OTHER favorite two seconds of the movie.

Yes, I generally think that facial expressions on the part of all the actors virtually make this movie.  Alma Jr. is brilliant at subtle facial expressions... most of her acting in this movie comes from facial expressions rather than lines delivered... amazing for such a young actress.  And Jake deserved every award he won for the range of facial expressions in the reunion kiss scene.  Seriously.

Anyway,  in reference to the quote above... yes it is absolutely wonderful to see that almost smile out of Ennis when John Twist lets him know all about Jack's plans to bring Ennis to the ranch and run it.  I think this moment is a revelation to Ennis. It probably never occurred to him that Jack's plans were concrete... that there was an actual ranch available to them to have... that Jack had been confident enough about this idea to tell his parents.  Ennis had never been able to imagine/ visualize what a life with Jack would look like in the real world.  And now, John Twist makes it crystal clear to him.  Jack's plan might have worked... and could have been real- not just a fantasy.  But, the most heartbreaking thing about Ennis's *almost* smile is that it is tinged with guilt.  He knows he was responsible for dashing that dream of Jack's.  How awful to know that you're the one who truly loved Jack and are also just one of those people who prevented Jack's "ideas from coming to pass."  I don't think I'm being too harsh on Ennis here.  It's just part of the grim reality of the way the story ends I think.

Yes, the nostril flair over Randall is awesome.  One more sign, I think, that Ennis truly thinks of himself as Jack's real partner by now.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 13, 2006, 12:15:24 am
Anyway,  in reference to the quote above... yes it is absolutely wonderful to see that almost smile out of Ennis when John Twist lets him know all about Jack's plans to bring Ennis to the ranch and run it.  I think this moment is a revelation to Ennis. It probably never occurred to him that Jack's plans were concrete... that there was an actual ranch available to them to have... that Jack had been confident enough about this idea to tell his parents.  Ennis had never been able to imagine/ visualize what a life with Jack would look like in the real world.  And now, John Twist makes it crystal clear to him.  Jack's plan might have worked... and could have been real- not just a fantasy.  But, the most heartbreaking thing about Ennis's *almost* smile is that it is tinged with guilt.  He knows he was responsible for dashing that dream of Jack's.  How awful to know that you're the one who truly loved Jack and are also just one of those people who prevented Jack's "ideas from coming to pass."  I don't think I'm being too harsh on Ennis here.  It's just part of the grim reality of the way the story ends I think.

Yes, I agree that the subtlety of ALL the characters' facial expressions is amazing. I recently posted on the "I love everything Alma Jr.' thread about how much I love her long, thoughtful look and gentle voice as she says, "Yes, daddy, he loves me." And Jack in the reunion kiss -- I also love seeing that he's so happy and incredulous he appears on the verge of tears. Touching and amazing.

You're right, Amanda, the fact that Ennis realizes the plans were concrete, and he was the one that prevented them, make this scene so heartbreaking. At one time I could hardly watch the last few scenes; now they've become possibly my favorite part of the movie (though I still can hardly stand to watch them). Ennis' expressions emotions are SO powerful, yet the constraints are SO strong that he is hardly able to reveal any emotion at all. That happens throughout the movie with both Ennis and Jack, but the conflict between emotion and restraint is particularly strong in the Twist ranch scene. We see what Ennis is going through, as does Mrs. Twist, yet John Twist hardly notices. It's amazing to see an actor 1) pretending not to show any emotion, yet somehow 2) actually showing huge depths of emotion and yet all the while 3) never going over the top or seeming the least bit maudlin or false.

I've said it a million times, but Heath was so robbed of that Oscar.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: silkncense on May 14, 2006, 10:14:34 am
Quote
but Heath was so robbed of that Oscar

You are SO right!!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 15, 2006, 08:38:02 pm
Ennis' expressions emotions are SO powerful, yet the constraints are SO strong that he is hardly able to reveal any emotion at all. That happens throughout the movie with both Ennis and Jack, but the conflict between emotion and restraint is particularly strong in the Twist ranch scene. We see what Ennis is going through, as does Mrs. Twist, yet John Twist hardly notices. It's amazing to see an actor 1) pretending not to show any emotion, yet somehow 2) actually showing huge depths of emotion and yet all the while 3) never going over the top or seeming the least bit maudlin or false.

I've said it a million times, but Heath was so robbed of that Oscar.

Definitely the tension that hiding deep emotion causes, I think, is what makes this movie so intense while at the same time it's so quiet.  In this scene, it has been suggested here and there, that Ennis is in part looking to find people he can grieve with over Jack.  He knew so few people connected to Jack's life and he wouldn't allow himself to express his grief over Jack's death to anyone in Riverton.  So this is yet another level of intense emotion being suppressed here by both Ennis and Jack's Mom.  On one of the great old threads about Jack's Mom on imdb someone once noted that part of the reason she might have invited Ennis to go to Jack's room right when she did was because she probably realized that he needed to cry and would probably want privacy (in addition to Mrs. Twist wanting Ennis to find the shirts and to realize that the "other fellow"  was really insignificant to Jack compared to him).

BBM was robbed of the other 5 Oscars it didn't win.  But, Citizen Kane didn't win best picture either (like our Brokeback, it won best screenplay! ... But it was original screenplay in the case of Kane.).  Classics are not determined by the Oscars.  I wish that my copy of the BBM DVD didn't have that "3 Oscars" border on it.  It should say winner of 64 major film awards and nominated for 51 more (the 64 and 51 include the Oscars).  That seems much more impressive and in many ways things like the Golden Lion in Venice means more to hardcore film people anyway.  That really is a shockingly huge number of awards.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 15, 2006, 10:58:23 pm
On one of the great old threads about Jack's Mom on imdb someone once noted that part of the reason she might have invited Ennis to go to Jack's room right when she did was because she probably realized that he needed to cry and would probably want privacy (in addition to Mrs. Twist wanting Ennis to find the shirts and to realize that the "other fellow"  was really insignificant to Jack compared to him).

BBM was robbed of the other 5 Oscars it didn't win.  But, Citizen Kane didn't win best picture either (like our Brokeback, it won best screenplay! ... But it was original screenplay in the case of Kane.).  Classics are not determined by the Oscars.  I wish that my copy of the BBM DVD didn't have that "3 Oscars" border on it.  It should say winner of 64 major film awards and nominated for 51 more (the 64 and 51 include the Oscars).  That seems much more impressive and in many ways things like the Golden Lion in Venice means more to hardcore film people anyway.  That really is a shockingly huge number of awards.

Yes, Ennis is clearly on the verge of tears just when she touches his shoulder. And the two of them exchange several long, meaningful looks throughout that scene and the one that follows, so I am pretty sure he knows that she knows and finds comfort in her sympathy, the only condolences he will ever receive.

As for the Oscar, I agree that BBM is a classic without the validation of an Oscar. In the long run, it won't matter much. What bothers me is how much Heath and everybody else deserve to have "Oscar winner" on their resumes, with all the attendant prestige and earning potential. I thought Ang's bewildered tone in post-Oscar interviews was very sad. Also, the Oscar would have sent a message to people who are skeptical or critical or even just ignorant of the movie, many of whom would know little about the less famous awards or the morning-after backlash against the AMPAS.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 17, 2006, 12:21:39 am
OK, new *little* detail... I love that the tractor that Jack rides with his son is called "versatile"- like our Jack.  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 24, 2006, 10:49:17 pm
And another detail...

I think it's amazing how much of the movie Ennis spends with furrowed brows.  Those worry lines in his forehead are usually pretty intense.  So, some of my new favorite moments are when Ennis's face looks relaxed and contented. 

My absolute favorite example of this is the 2nd tent scene.  When Ennis enters the tent and kneels down all the way through the cuddling while he's lying on top of Jack his forehead is doing some serious furrowing.  But, once Jack rolls over on top of him and really starts to kiss him... Ennis's face just looks so different.  Soooo much more relaxed.  It's honestly hard to think of all that many moments when Ennis's face doesn't look at least sliightly worried or stressed.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 25, 2006, 12:00:28 am
But, once Jack rolls over on top of him and really starts to kiss him... Ennis's face just looks so different.  Soooo much more relaxed.

Yes, and the other thing I love about this moment is how into it Ennis suddenly becomes -- much more of an active participant. :-* There's like a sixteenth of a second at the very end of that scene when it looks like they stop kissing and sort of rest their faces on each other's. I really hate how it cuts away right then. (Ang has said in interviews, I think, that the scene was trimmed way down from what they actually filmed -- we can only hope that more will surface in a special edition DVD or director's cut!)

The other time he's notably non-furrowed is throughout most of the reunion segment -- especially during the "sending up a prayer of thanks" moment.  :)

Then again, I also love the worry lines, especially at the end of the lakeside argument, when his expression is not so much worry as outright anguish.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 25, 2006, 01:53:17 pm
I really hate how it cuts away right then. (Ang has said in interviews, I think, that the scene was trimmed way down from what they actually filmed -- we can only hope that more will surface in a special edition DVD or director's cut!)

Yup, I hope so too.  I remember an interview where Jake said the first tent scene took 13 takes!  So, maybe there's a lot more of that one too.  I've rarely heard the details of the second tent scene shoot discussed.  I think the "making-of" issues are really interesting.  So, I hope there's more of that on a special edition DVD too.  I think those special features on the current DVD are too short.

By the way, I seem to recall Ennis being quite active in the first tent scene... if not as sweet or intimate as he is in the second tent scene.
 ;) :-*
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 25, 2006, 04:11:25 pm
By the way, I seem to recall Ennis being quite active in the first tent scene... if not as sweet or intimate as he is in the second tent scene.
 ;) :-*

Well, that's true! He doesn't say much, but he gets his point across.  ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 25, 2006, 08:14:26 pm
Quote
And, I love how he seems to have adopted the "knock the cowboy hat off" move as a part of his foreplay ritual already by that scene.

Amanda, I wanted to respond to this post you wrote on the I Love Ennis thread, but Roland runs a tight ship over there -- you're not allowed to post unless it adds to the thread -- so I brought it over here. I, too, noticed that Ennis does the "knock the hat off" move. And then I noticed that when Jack and Lureen are in the back of L.D.'s car, Lureen pointedly removes Jack's hat. I think this action subconsciously appeals to Jack for this very reason! "Fast or slow, I just like the way you take my cowboy hat off!"
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 25, 2006, 08:27:39 pm
Amanda, I wanted to respond to this post you wrote on the I Love Ennis thread, but Roland runs a tight ship over there

LOL. :laugh:  I find the idea of strict rules over there charming and funny.

Quote
I, too, noticed that Ennis does the "knock the hat off" move. And then I noticed that when Jack and Lureen are in the back of L.D.'s car, Lureen pointedly removes Jack's hat. I think this action subconsciously appeals to Jack for this very reason! "Fast or slow, I just like the way you take my cowboy hat off!"

Yup, I think so too....  and, she's on top!
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 25, 2006, 08:31:10 pm
By the way... are we supposed to think that the Happy Tussle scene is the morning after the 2nd tent scene?  Or is it later in the summer?  Proulx makes it pretty clear that they were making out all the time, all over the place on the mountain after that first tent encounter.  But, is this clear to a movie viewer who might not have read the story?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on May 25, 2006, 11:09:06 pm
By the way... are we supposed to think that the Happy Tussle scene is the morning after the 2nd tent scene?  Or is it later in the summer?  Proulx makes it pretty clear that they were making out all the time, all over the place on the mountain after that first tent encounter.  But, is this clear to a movie viewer who might not have read the story?

I think the way the boys are so comfortable wiith each other in this scene implies that our boys have reached a degree of ease and comfort with each other that goes some way in implying that some time has passed. Besides, the book does suggest that with time they were doing it anywhere - anytime - sheep be damned, and at the beginning of this scene, Jack is obviously pulling up his jeans. Furthermore, where else do we get to see both of them shirtless, and outdoors.

Amanda, I wanted to respond to this post you wrote on the I Love Ennis thread, but Roland runs a tight ship over there -- you're not allowed to post unless it adds to the thread -- so I brought it over here. I, too, noticed that Ennis does the "knock the hat off" move...

Maybe I should ask Phillip to move THIS thread to the I Love Everything ... Brokeback forum  ;) get some tightness onto this little ship o' yours   :laugh: - just kidding!

So you both think I should lighter up hunh?!?!

Actually I'm just trying to keep things flowing, rather than have arguments - I'm sure I've gotten less "strict" in the past week of two (now that a certain few someones are no longer in my hair)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 25, 2006, 11:17:54 pm
So you both think I should lighter up hunh?!?!

Goodness Roland, we're just teasing you!

 :laugh: :D ;)


OK, so here's a new detail that I'm just in love with.  In the morning after the first tent scene, it's bright morning, we see our boys (with their heads pointing towards the right edge of the screen) with Jack facing out towards the viewer on his side while we catch a glimpse of Ennis's face over Jack's neck as Ennis lies on his back.  Then, many scenes later, after Ennis and Alma have their confrontation in bed (the "no protection" moment) we see the exact opposite composition in the frame.  Alma turns the light out and it's dark, their heads are pointing towards the left edge of the frame and Alma is facing out towards the audience on her side while we see a glimpse of Ennis's face over her neck as lies on his back.

 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 25, 2006, 11:32:47 pm
Hey, Roland!  :D  So great to see you here! As Amanda says, we are teasing -- I'm don't mind your tight ship. Some threads just don't lend themselves to straying far OT. I can't imagine, say, the ABCs of the last-scene thread dissolving into a debate over whether D should stand for Door or Daughter, and by the way, is Alma Jr. wearing bluebird earrings and what song is playing on the radio when she drives up?

Rules are good sometimes!

Anyway, I think of the happy tussle as occurring a while after TS2 -- not only because they're obviously very comfortable with each other by then, but also because for some reason I want their scenes of intimacy stretched out over a longer period. Why, I can't say, only that every time I watch I feel more and more achingly the "never enough time" thing. Damn you, Ang Lee!!!!  ;)

In other words, I could use a lot more of this:

they were doing it anywhere - anytime - sheep be damned,
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 26, 2006, 12:27:28 am
what song is playing on the radio when she drives up?

LOL.  This is a good question.  I've always wondered this.  It is the '80s, after all, by this point in the film.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 26, 2006, 01:33:07 am
LOL.  This is a good question.  I've always wondered this.  It is the '80s, after all, by this point in the film.

I think I actually remember this being discussed on TOB, but I didn't pay enough attention. You can almost almost make out what it is.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 28, 2006, 01:10:16 am
Oh my.  So, how is it possible that there's a "lovable subtle detail" from the reunion scene that I only noticed tonight?! :o

And, it's a good one.  After the camera cuts away from Alma in the kitchen and back outside to Ennis and Jack clinging to each other... Jack is tugging on Ennis's shirt so hard that one of the buttons pops open.  I've always loved that he's pulling on the shirt so that Ennis has to recompose himself (tuck in his shirt!) before heading back upstair.  But, I truly never noticed that button open before.
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on May 28, 2006, 02:34:33 am
What is lost in the widerscreen (sic) version in the motel scene is even more important than what is lost in the first tent scene: not oly is Ennus;s wedding ring visable in all the waist-up shots, but his arm and hand rests lightly on Jack's arm. He responds to a vouple of Jack's statements with a light arm casress (like: Brokeback  got us good, huh" It is so much better than seeing him just lying there like he's lying on a fouton, without muh reaction to some of the the things jacjk sads,....esceopt to put an even tighter lid on Enis,, I can see no reqasin for removing the from the widescreen version...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Pipedream on May 28, 2006, 03:47:16 am
OK, so here's a new detail that I'm just in love with.  In the morning after the first tent scene, it's bright morning, we see our boys (with their heads pointing towards the right edge of the screen) with Jack facing out towards the viewer on his side while we catch a glimpse of Ennis's face over Jack's neck as Ennis lies on his back.  Then, many scenes later, after Ennis and Alma have their confrontation in bed (the "no protection" moment) we see the exact opposite composition in the frame.  Alma turns the light out and it's dark, their heads are pointing towards the left edge of the frame and Alma is facing out towards the audience on her side while we see a glimpse of Ennis's face over her neck as lies on his back.


Precisely, Amanda! I also love the fact that in the second tent scene Jack's and Ennis' heads point to the left edge of the screen. Everything seems to have changed since their first vigorous love making: instead of it being friggin' cold the camp fire is burning brightly and Jack takes his shirt off. He doesn't have to order Ennis into the tent. Ennis comes all by himself. Their heads are where there feet had been the other night and Jack gets on top of Ennis. Actually, I believe the thing with their heads pointing to the other direction suggests that they didn't have a strict distribution of roles as "top" and "bottom" but occasionally switched jobs... This can't be coincidence! Above all, of course, there is the incredible tenderness that distinguishes the second from the first tent scene. It's just magic.

 :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 28, 2006, 08:12:38 am
Interesting details Anke!

But I think that Ennis would have stuck to the dominant role.   Just because Jack rolls over on top of him doesn't mean he was going to let Jack mount him.     He was I think rolling over and letting Jack know that he was ready for love and attention.   An important detail indeed.   

But in my mind, with all of Ennis's hang ups about being thought of as Gay or Queer, he would never allow a guy to do that to him.   Jack however, we see that in the first tent scene he is very ready and willing to let Ennis take charge.   
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on May 28, 2006, 10:20:51 am
Interesting details Anke!

But I think that Ennis would have stuck to the dominant role.   Just because Jack rolls over on top of him doesn't mean he was going to let Jack mount him.     He was I think rolling over and letting Jack know that he was ready for love and attention.   An important detail indeed.   

But in my mind, with all of Ennis's hang ups about being thought of as Gay or Queer, he would never allow a guy to do that to him.   Jack however, we see that in the first tent scene he is very ready and willing to let Ennis take charge.   
I totally agree David

Love your many euphemisms: "dominant role", "mount him", "ready for love and attention", "do that to him", "take charge"... Have you been practicing long?  ;D



PS: Just noticed ... today, I've been a BetterMost member for exactly 100 days! (196 posts averaging 1.960 posts per day!)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 28, 2006, 10:34:27 am
 :laugh:   Ha ha ha!   :laugh:

Just being ....ah, politically correct I guess.   This isn't the NC-17 thread you know!!


It amazes me that alot of people assume that Jack is taking the dominant role just because Ennis rolls over.   As we know, a submissive like Jack (pushy bottom,  LOL)
was probably trying to get Ennis to relax so he could show his appreciation for the night before!    ;D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Pipedream on May 28, 2006, 10:37:19 am
Hahaha! Whatever boys. Guess you are the experts here!  ;D  ::) ;)
Just liked the thought that Ennis' surrender was total...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 28, 2006, 10:44:42 am
Just liked the thought that Ennis' surrender was total...
Oh most definately.  Ennis was surrendering himself to Jack, but on an level of trust and physical need.  I think Ennis felt bad that he ignored Jack all that day while he sorted out what had happened the night before.   He came into the tent almost apologetic.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Pipedream on May 28, 2006, 11:12:41 am
Oh most definately.  Ennis was surrendering himself to Jack, but on an level of trust and physical need. 

This scene is really amazing. Speaking of surrender: the way Ennis lies there when Jack rolls on top of him, on his back, offering himself... isn't that exactly the gesture of subservience a dog would make??   :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: isabelle on May 28, 2006, 11:25:32 am
This scene is really amazing. Speaking of surrender: the way Ennis lies there when Jack rolls on top of him, on his back, offering himself... isn't that exactly the gesture of subservience a dog would make??   :)

Anke!!! Do you ever think of yourself as a dog when you do that?  :laugh:
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Pipedream on May 28, 2006, 11:28:07 am
Anke!!! Do you ever think of yourself as a dog when you do that?  :laugh:

Lol. No, I don't think so. But, then, it's a matter of instict, right? Guess doggies don't think about it much, either...   ;D ::) :P
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 28, 2006, 11:34:00 am
isn't that exactly the gesture of subservience a dog would make??   :)

Well, a dog will roll onto his back so you can rub his belly, but he is the one who wants to hump your leg!   

 :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: tiawahcowboy on May 28, 2006, 11:59:13 am
By the way... are we supposed to think that the Happy Tussle scene is the morning after the 2nd tent scene?  Or is it later in the summer?  Proulx makes it pretty clear that they were making out all the time, all over the place on the mountain after that first tent encounter.  But, is this clear to a movie viewer who might not have read the story?

Oh, as far a the movie is concerned (and using the book as a reference), the "Happy Tussle" scene (when Aguirre watches them through his binoculars) takes place quite awhile after the movie's "2nd Tent Scene." The 2nd time they had sex in the book, it was back in the tent.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on May 28, 2006, 03:29:38 pm
Precisely, Amanda! I also love the fact that in the second tent scene Jack's and Ennis' heads point to the left edge of the screen. Everything seems to have changed since their first vigorous love making: instead of it being friggin' cold the camp fire is burning brightly and Jack takes his shirt off. He doesn't have to order Ennis into the tent. Ennis comes all by himself. Their heads are where there feet had been the other night and Jack gets on top of Ennis. Actually, I believe the thing with their heads pointing to the other direction suggests that they didn't have a strict distribution of roles as "top" and "bottom" but occasionally switched jobs... This can't be coincidence! Above all, of course, there is the incredible tenderness that distinguishes the second from the first tent scene. It's just magic.

 :)


yeah, even the colors in the scene, from cool blues to warm tones are beautiful contrasts.

As for the "switching" sexual roles, to me, I just don't think there's enough to tell one way or the other. I'm of the mind that Ennis isn't all that conflicted about whether he's queer or not. To me, his conflict is how he fits into society and the dangerous consequences that it entails. so it's possible that he may be willing to be versatile.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Lumičre on May 28, 2006, 03:52:29 pm
yeah, even the colors in the scene, from cool blues to warm tones are beautiful contrasts.

As for the "switching" sexual roles, to me, I just don't think there's enough to tell one way or the other. I'm of the mind that Ennis isn't all that conflicted about whether he's queer or not. To me, his conflict is how he fits into society and the dangerous consequences that it entails. so it's possible that he may be willing to be versatile.

Interesting point Nipith!
On the surface, it sure looks like Ennis would be too 'macho' to be the 'bottom' but I like to think that when he was with Jack, there were moments when he would allow himself the vulnerability to be "taken" by Jack  :P.  Simply because he trusted Jack with everything, and especially because Jack was the one person in the world who absolutely loved him for (not despite) his 'queerness'.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 28, 2006, 06:40:31 pm
yeah, even the colors in the scene, from cool blues to warm tones are beautiful contrasts.

As for the "switching" sexual roles, to me, I just don't think there's enough to tell one way or the other. I'm of the mind that Ennis isn't all that conflicted about whether he's queer or not. To me, his conflict is how he fits into society and the dangerous consequences that it entails. so it's possible that he may be willing to be versatile.

Hey there, I quite like this idea. 

I also like all this discussion about the differences between the first and second tent scene (head direction, color, temperature, etc.).  In terms of the cold vs. warm problem, I think it's interesting that Jack clearly feels no need to bundle up in three layers (t-shirt, blue shirt and jacket) in the second tent scene as he did in the first.  Barb has suggested that the amount of clothing worn by the characters has a lot to do with how close they're feeling to one another and also has to do with how vulnerable or insecure they feel at any one time.  It's a great contrast in the 2 tent scenes.  Jack is ready to be completely open with Ennis since he's taken his shirt off and just waits for Ennis to come to him and Ennis is feeling a lot more open with Jack in that he's only wearing a shirt (no more heavy outer jacket like he wore in the first tent scene) but he's still so nervous that he's not quite to Jack's level of open-ness yet.  As is the case when they're traveling up and down the mountain... Jack is always at least a step or two ahead of Ennis.  It's cute that in the Happy Tussle they both finally have their shirts off.

Whether or not Jack winds up being on top for the actual intercourse in the second tent scene... what we do get to see is him more or less taking control at least in these moments of foreplay.  Heath has said that he thought of the 2nd tent scene as being vitally important to showing Ennis as being completely vulnerable, which to Heath was a sign of the "freedom" of the mountain summer.  I think this is an interesting idea because in letting himself indulge in this super intimate scene where he lets himself enjoy all the sweetness that Jack is offering up, Ennis really is experiencing a sort of freedom in letting his normal anxieties and inhibitions go.  Yes, I think it's a great idea that he's letting himself enjoy this moment with (as Lucise said) the person who loves him for his 'queerness.'

I like the contrast to the love making styles in the first and second tent scene too... you get the sense that if Jack could always be "in charge" things would always be super sweet and intimate... lots of kissing and cuddling.  He's always wanting to kiss... you can tell he's frustrated by the fact that Ennis wouldn't kiss in the first tent scene, and in the reunion kiss Jack is still trying to reach for Ennis's lips when Ennis is ready to head back to the apartment.  You also get the sense that the cuddling in the motel is like seventh heaven for Jack.  I mean, I think Ennis likes and needs all these things too, but they seem super important to Jack.  This comes across in the idea that the hug in the flashback scene was Jack's favorite memory.  Jack is just adorable.
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Pipedream on May 28, 2006, 06:47:37 pm
I like the contrast to the love making styles in the first and second tent scene too... you get the sense that if Jack could always be "in charge" things would always be super sweet and intimate... lots of kissing and cuddling.  He's always wanting to kiss... you can tell he's frustrated by the fact that Ennis wouldn't kiss in the first tent scene, and in the reunion kiss Jack is still trying to reach for Ennis's lips when Ennis is ready to head back to the apartment.  You also get the sense that the cuddling in the motel is like seventh heaven for Jack.  I mean, I think Ennis likes and needs all these things too, but they seem super important to Jack.  This comes across in the idea that the hug in the flashback scene was Jack's favorite memory.  Jack is just adorable.
 :D

You are just adorable, Amanda!
Nobody can decribe these things as well as you!!!  :-*

Love it!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on May 28, 2006, 06:47:55 pm
  You also get the sense that the cuddling in the motel is like seventh heaven for Jack. 
 ....... Jack is just adorable.
 :D

I couldn't agree more!
   ;D

(http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1113.0;attach=3200;image)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 28, 2006, 10:26:36 pm
You are just adorable, Amanda!
Nobody can decribe these things as well as you!!!  :-*

Love it!

Aww!  Thanks Pipedream!
 :D

And David too!
 :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 28, 2006, 11:25:12 pm
Heya again,

By the way David, what's the deal with the cute photo you included in your post?  I've seen other people post it here and there.  Is it a "real" photo from some promo shoot, or is it photo-shopped together?  I've always wondered where it came from.

(http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1113.0;attach=3200;image)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on May 28, 2006, 11:48:30 pm
Heya again,

By the way David, what's the deal with the cute photo you included in your post?  I've seen other people post it here and there.  Is it a "real" photo from some promo shoot, or is it photo-shopped together?  I've always wondered where it came from.

(http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1113.0;attach=3200;image)

it's photoshopped together. I've seen the original of Jake by himself in some magazine or other.

and yes, I love reading your expression of their moments together. I'm completely with you. For Jack, it's not the sex, but rather it's about the contact.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on June 02, 2006, 04:48:35 am
I found another lovable subtle detail:

"ain't no reigns on this one" I could melt on how Ennis says that (or how Heath delivers the line - pick out which description you prefer  :) ). And a second later, he does a kind of a very little sigh. It's not actually a sigh, it's unvoiced, more like letting the air out like "phhhhh..."
It shows Ennis's state of mind: giving up (can't fix it), resigning, and being emotionally exhausted by his thoughts and speech. Just by one little "phhhh". Makes this scene even more poignant. I love this sound. So sad but so sweet.

(Hope this is not old news for you. But those dubbing-technicians let it out in the German version  >:( . They also let out some of Ennis's thank yous and half of the humming. I'm still detecting differences between both versions with each viewing).

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 02, 2006, 08:40:23 am
"ain't no reigns on this one" I could melt on how Ennis says that (or how Heath delivers the line - pick out which description you prefer  :) ). And a second later, he does a kind of a very little sigh. It's not actually a sigh, it's unvoiced, more like letting the air out like "phhhhh..."
It shows Ennis's state of mind: giving up (can't fix it), resigning, and being emotionally exhausted by his thoughts and speech. Just by one little "phhhh". Makes this scene even more poignant. I love this sound. So sad but so sweet.

Oh, yeah, Penth! I love that moment, too. And that's a really good way to describe it. He looks so sad. And as Jack is caressing his face, there's also a tiny hint that he's allowing himself to relax a bit as he's comforted by Jack.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 02, 2006, 09:17:33 am
For me it is all about the evening Ennis waits for Jack to show up.    Haven't we all been that anxious for a special person to arrive?   :)

(http://static.flickr.com/53/140656293_3f60471655.jpg?v=0)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on June 02, 2006, 10:49:11 am
Hey, David, you know what I really love about that scene? A moment later, those little worry lines on Ennis's forehead melt away, and Ennis looks like he's going to simultaneously cry and smile at the same time.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 02, 2006, 11:41:11 am
Hey, David, you know what I really love about that scene? A moment later, those little worry lines on Ennis's forehead melt away, and Ennis looks like he's going to simultaneously cry and smile at the same time.

Once again, Mel, a very good description of his expression.

Hey David and Mel, you know what I really love about that scene? Every single thing! Oh, except for the Alma parts, but I can fast-forward through those (and maybe reverse a few times to replay some of the others!).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: bkamberger on June 02, 2006, 01:31:37 pm
A few points that struck me upon re-viewing last night:

1. When Jack is simulating for Ennis the experience of being on a bucking bull, he says (this is probably a paraphrase), "He's tossing me up to high heaven...but I'm not gonna let him dashboard me." The first phrase is an interesting reversal of his notion that guys like him and Ennis will "march off to hell" at the Last Judgment: clearly, riding the bulls is the closest Jack feels to heaven, even if he always ends up being dashed to earth. But I'm still sorting out the resonance of the second phrase. It suggests a car's dashboard, and of course both Ennis' parents and possibly Jack himself are killed as a result of a car malfunction. But it also suggests "paradise by the dashboard light" and the Meatloaf song of that name, in which a horny young man is lured into marriage by a woman, as Jack is by Lureen.

2. When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera. This suggests to me he's in deep denial: not only can he not look Jack (or us) in the face when he says this, but he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" - all the better to see the little facials tics that suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in dishonesty, Jack is more "open" than Ennis.

3. When Jack is bucked off the bull and seems in danger of being trampled, the announcer shouts, "Send in the clowns!" This scene occurs nearly a decade before Stephen Sondheim wrote the song of that name, but I couldn't help considering its lyrics and how they apply to our boys. Here they are:

Isn't it rich?
Aren't we a pair?
Me here at last on the ground
You in mid-air
Send in the clowns
 
Isn't it bliss?
Don't you approve?
One who keeps tearing around
One who can't move
Where are the clowns?
Send in the clowns
 
Just when I stopped
Opening doors
Finally knowing the one
That I wanted was yours
Making my entrance again
With my usual flair
Sure of my lines
No one is there

Don't you love farce?
My fault, I fear
I thought that you want what I want
Sorry, my dear
But where are the clowns?
Quick, send in the clowns
Don't bother
They're here

Isn't it rich?
Isn't it queer?
Losing my timing this late
In my career?
And where are the clowns?
There ought to be clowns
Well maybe
Next year

4. When L.D. says "Rodeo can get" the boxes of formula, he tosses the car keys to Jack the same way Joe Aguirre tossed the watch to Ennis. Annie Proulx says this gesture indicated that Aguirre thought Ennis "wasn't worth the reach," and that would go double for L.D. and Jack.

5. As Ennis is leaving for the first "fishing trip," Alma looks out the window and hears Jack say, "I'm starving. Let's get something to eat." She starts crying at that point, perhaps partly because she realizes that Ennis' claim that Jack isn't the restaurant type was yet one more lie, and partly because she now grasps that Ennis wouldn't even consider asking her to fix something for them (and hence, in a way, doesn't need her any more). The latter thought, in fact, may explain her utter lack of sympathy for him in the "dinner's on the stove" scene.

6. When Alma suggests that Ennis pursue a job at the power company, he scoffs, "As clumsy as I am, I'd probably get electrocuted." We usually think of Jack as the clumsy one, so could this be more than just a dodge, but a clue that Ennis has already linked himself with Jack in his mind? (The irony of Jack's death, if one believes it was an accident, makes this all the more poignant.)

7. When Ennis first dances with Cassie, they're right next to a woman covered in tattoos. I couldn't help being reminded of the tattooed bikers Ennis beats up at the Fourth of July picnic. There, he was protecting the women and children from the unwanted advances of sexual predators; here, he's putting himself in danger of a sexual situation with a woman that, deep down, is unwanted, and which will end up being equally destructive, on an emotional level, for all concerned.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 02, 2006, 02:41:41 pm
Hey, David, you know what I really love about that scene? A moment later, those little worry lines on Ennis's forehead melt away, and Ennis looks like he's going to simultaneously cry and smile at the same time.

Yup.  I agree.   Ennis's whole face lights up when Jack arrives!    Even when he is introducing Jack to Alma.

(http://static.flickr.com/13/90549426_b096929284.jpg?v=0)

Also, notice how bright the room is in this scene.   Previously it was cloudy and gray.   Jack shows up and the whole room lights up!     Is this symbolic that Jack is the light in Ennis's dull life?



Oh, and I did catch the part about Breakfast.   Does Alma suggest that Jack come in for breakfast or coffee at least?      Then to hear Jack ask him the same thing and Ennis is happy to go out and eat with Jack!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 02, 2006, 04:06:46 pm
Wow, bkamberger, lots of good observations. And you're only on your second post? Awesome. And welcome!

I especially like this one

When Ennis first dances with Cassie, they're right next to a woman covered in tattoos. I couldn't help being reminded of the tattooed bikers Ennis beats up at the Fourth of July picnic. There, he was protecting the women and children from the unwanted advances of sexual predators; here, he's putting himself in danger of a sexual situation with a woman that, deep down, is unwanted, and which will end up being equally destructive, on an emotional level, for all concerned.

The issue of the tattooed woman came up on another thread and various explanations for her presence were tossed around. (The one I found most convincing was the observation that nobody is paying much attention to the woman, even though she is certainly unusual, suggesting that maybe Ennis is being too paranoid in thinking everybody is "suspects" or would disapprove of him). But I hadn't heard your idea before and it's intriguing.

I also liked your point about Jack suggesting a bite to eat after Ennis has told Alma Jack wasn't the restaurant type AND rejected her offer of coffee. Really twists the knife, hunh.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: PatSinnott on June 04, 2006, 02:45:29 pm
I posted on this at the beginning of this thread.  It takes place in the divorce scene, and Ennis starts to shed a tear in his left eye.  Here is a photo of it...   Double click on the photo to make it larger and you'll see the tear.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 04, 2006, 11:27:00 pm
OK, new detail...

I love that the mail slot at the post office that Ennis uses to mail his "you bet" postcard isn't just a "postal services" slot... it's a "special postal services" slot."
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: wolf on June 05, 2006, 12:18:31 am
this isn't an especially loveable detail, but it would certainly meet the criteria for 'irrelevant but interesting'  :P

a previous poster mentioned that Jack undoes his belt AND his buttons with only his left hand (first night in tent), and noted that Ennis clearly and audibly unzips. 

it's about those buttons/zips!  one of the style note differences between the boys is Jack's religious wearing of dark Wranglers, the rodeo cowboy's jeans of choice.  Ennis, on the other hand, is always seen in faded Levi's 501's.  Culturally correct, and an opportunity to do the dark/light thing again - HOWEVER, Wranglers almost all have ZIPS, whereas Levi's have buttons.   :o ;D :o.

I'd be tickled to hear any theories on this reversal of apparel closure systems. 

w
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on June 05, 2006, 01:19:42 am
POst it on "goofs" on IMDb under..."reversal of equipment"...but: you said, Jack always wears Wranglers, and Ennis Levis (501s). Thus they must not be REAL Wrangkers and REAL 501s. On second thought, I think this falls under the catergory of "very amusng mistake," not "reversal of equipmernt."

Something that has always bothered me about that introduction: most guys, after soul kissing a loved one for five minutes...have hard-ons...sorry, but just the facts, Ma'm.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: wolf on June 05, 2006, 01:29:33 am
Julie,

I posted mainly about the neat adherance to the two different brands of jeans, as per the different subcultures the boys 'belong' to, but thought the closure reversal a bit of fun to add to it. 

Incidentally, I've owned many pairs of Wranglers and many pairs of 501's over the years.  all the W's have zips and all the 501's have buttons.  Might be different in the States a'course  ;).

As you were

W
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on June 05, 2006, 01:34:24 am
wolf: I thought i made it clear that I uhnderstood your post...right jeans, wrong closures--right?

What about the hard-ons? (added to my previous post later)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on June 05, 2006, 06:52:08 am
Wolf, I believe that zippers existed on levi's jeans as well as other brands - so I don't believe this to be a mistake, but buttons on wranglers - definitively never heard of that!

Sorry Julie. I can't discuss your point cause I don't understand what argument you are advancing.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on June 05, 2006, 12:25:14 pm
Something that has always bothered me about that introduction: most guys, after soul kissing a loved one for five minutes...have hard-ons...sorry, but just the facts, Ma'm.

yeah, we actually had a few discussion about that on the old CT. to me that's why we see Ennis sticking his fist in to this pocket, and Jack stands a bit hunched over, to lessen the visibility of their ... um ... "excitement".
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Lumičre on June 05, 2006, 12:40:23 pm
yeah, we actually had a few discussion about that on the old CT. to me that's why we see Ennis sticking his fist in to this pocket, and Jack stands a bit hunched over, to lessen the visibility of their ... um ... "excitement".

Exactly!  :)
Plus, as Ennis introduced Jack to Alma, he didn't actually face her. 
 After Jack talked of marrying the prettiest lil gal, he lowered his head as if to catch his breath and steady himself. 
The boys just couldn't wait to get the hell out of there .. :P
I love that scene!


(http://www.variety.com/graphics/photos/storypics/limbo_brokeback_02.jpg)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on June 05, 2006, 04:33:10 pm
Well, fortunately, Roland, everyone else seems to have gotten my point...

I would like to carry this "hard-ons" thing a bit further--this is just a querry, based on my own  experience.

The other day, I was sitting in psychology group, thinking about Brokeback Mountain, and not psychology group, as usual--but my eyes happened to rest on Diana Levy. Diana is aboiut 20 years yonger than I, very attractive in a quiet sort of way, dark hair to her shouolders, brown eyes, gentle lines, (about 2) in her face, and a soft voice. We are good friends..

 I startred thinking (I am absolutely stright. and have been for 71 years), that if I had to--because i had wound up in a movie somehow, and so had she--kiss her repeatedly for as long as half an hour (allowing times for re-takes), her body pressed against mine--that I would be pretty hot and bothered by the end of that time! Just the closenewss of an attractive human being, of either sex, for so long as time...

I ran this by my ex-husband (who forgot to move out after we got divorced ), and he said "How old am I" and i said "sbout 25." (he is also straight). he laughrd, "I would have come twice during that time, and be ready for more."
"Gosh,--you unberstand, this is another man, a friend, attrative--but you're not gay, not in love".
"At 25, I couold come, walking down the street from my jeans rubbing against my stone-hard dick, so if I had to kiss an attractiver person for as prolongued period of time--of either sex--I'm SURE I would get a hard-on."
 In fact, he said, it wouold take him, at 25, about 5 minutes...

I'm suggesting that the problem may have been more real than we casually think...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on June 05, 2006, 04:40:56 pm
Ok, Julie, I don't know about everyone else, but now I'm hot and bothered... ;D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on June 05, 2006, 05:01:15 pm
Yup...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on June 05, 2006, 06:44:40 pm
Well, fortunately, Roland, everyone else seems to have gotten my point...

I would like to carry this "hard-ons" thing a bit further--this is just a querry, based on my own  experience.

The other day, I was sitting in psychology group, thinking about Brokeback Mountain, and not psychology group, as usual--but my eyes happened to rest on Diana Levy. Diana is aboiut 20 years yonger than I, very attractive in a quiet sort of way, dark hair to her shouolders, brown eyes, gentle lines, (about 2) in her face, and a soft voice. We are good friends..

 I startred thinking (I am absolutely stright. and have been for 71 years), that if I had to--because i had wound up in a movie somehow, and so had she--kiss her repeatedly for as long as half an hour (allowing times for re-takes), her body pressed against mine--that I would be pretty hot and bothered by the end of that time! Just the closenewss of an attractive human being, of either sex, for so long as time...

I ran this by my ex-husband (who forgot to move out after we got divorced ), and he said "How old am I" and i said "sbout 25." (he is also straight). he laughrd, "I would have come twice during that time, and be ready for more."
"Gosh,--you unberstand, this is another man, a friend, attrative--but you're not gay, not in love".
"At 25, I couold come, walking down the street from my jeans rubbing against my stone-hard dick, so if I had to kiss an attractiver person for as prolongued period of time--of either sex--I'm SURE I would get a hard-on."
 In fact, he said, it wouold take him, at 25, about 5 minutes...

I'm suggesting that the problem may have been more real than we casually think...


yep, being 25, wearing tight jeans. that'd do it for me too, even without an attractive man or woman to rub up against. man! I was horny back then.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: wolf on June 05, 2006, 07:52:03 pm
Wolf, I believe that zippers existed on levi's jeans as well as other brands - so I don't believe this to be a mistake, but buttons on wranglers - definitively never heard of that!

Sorry Julie. I can't discuss your point cause I don't understand what argument you are advancing.

Thanks Roland, for your reply.  Actually it might be a particularly Australian phenomenon, the buttons in 501's.  We get zippered Levi's here too of course, but not in 501's. 

Lovin' all this talk of hard-ons  :P

W
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 05, 2006, 08:14:01 pm
Diverting the conversation... if only slightly.

I LOVE that Ennis wipes his mouth as he enters the apartment to introduce Jack to Alma.  I've said it before, but it's worth repeating.
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on June 05, 2006, 09:07:57 pm
I didn't mean to put you down, Roland--I sometimes talk in short hand. Youwould have had to read my previous TWO posts...

Speaking of my shorthand, did anyone notice that I changed the subject from Jack and Ennis to Jake and Heath? Just curious...not really important. I very rarely talk about movie actors, anyway....
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on June 07, 2006, 02:37:50 am
Well, pleaee don't ley me stop you from talking; I'm finished...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on June 07, 2006, 09:02:02 am
This thread has got me so frustrated for a DVD with commentary..but I doubt they'd go into detail on the hard-ons issue   ;D

The little detail I notice is the nail paint mark on Lureen's finger when she's on the phone ..to me that symbolizes the fact that she truly was cut up about losing Jack, even if they had grown apart. 

So many subtle details, so little time...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: twistedude on June 07, 2006, 07:02:23 pm
me too. BTW, everyone saying she's wearing false fingernails--no WAY. There're not near long enough. Too conservatuive. She just swiped the brush dowen eax=ch one, ignoring the sides...not taking too good care of hert hands now.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 07, 2006, 07:07:55 pm
I love that one of the first things that Ennis runs to pack after the motel and prior to the prayer of thanks camping trip is a toothbrush!  Very suggestive...  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: moremojo on June 07, 2006, 07:22:08 pm

5. As Ennis is leaving for the first "fishing trip," Alma looks out the window and hears Jack say, "I'm starving. Let's get something to eat." She starts crying at that point, perhaps partly because she realizes that Ennis' claim that Jack isn't the restaurant type was yet one more lie, and partly because she now grasps that Ennis wouldn't even consider asking her to fix something for them (and hence, in a way, doesn't need her any more). The latter thought, in fact, may explain her utter lack of sympathy for him in the "dinner's on the stove" scene.
Another implication of Alma overhearing Jack's request to grab a bit to eat, and Ennis's acquiescence, to my mind at least, is that it shows her how little regard Ennis has for her feelings compared to those of this unknown old buddy of his who she has seen kissing her husband. In the published screenplay, we are told in an authorial aside that Alma hopes for a rare social outlet in Jack's expected arrival, and thus proposes the restaurant outing; she has even donned lipstick in the anticipation of such an excursion. Ennis's characterization of Jack not being the restaurant type is not only a lie, but also becomes an insult to Alma, however unintended.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 09, 2006, 11:22:08 pm
New detail... And, I don't remember this one being commented upon before.  I've begun increasingly to notice the background details in the bar scene right at the beginning when Jack and Ennis are getting to know each other following the intial meeting with Aguirre.  I LOVE the fact that there's a dart board right behind Ennis's head.  It really is right behind his head... so you only notice it on occasion when he moves his head or when the camera shifts.  I like thinking of those darts as cowboy versions of cupid's arrows.  And all those darts are pointing towards Ennis as if they've come from Jack's direction.  I also quite like the lasso that's behind and to the side of Ennis (it's much more visible and is hanging on the large bull's skull on the wall).  The spirals of rope next to Ennis's head seem to indicate that all sorts of complicated things are going on inside Ennis's mind (that he might be tangled in knots, metaphorically speaking, in certain ways).  In contrast, Jack is very noticeably sitting in a bright ray of sunshine.  Or the ray of sunshine frames him from behind.  He's clearly in the position of the "beloved" here or the object of Ennis's emerging attraction.

 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on June 09, 2006, 11:30:59 pm
New detail... And, I don't remember this one being commented upon before.  I've begun increasingly to notice the background details in the bar scene right at the beginning when Jack and Ennis are getting to know each other following the intial meeting with Aguirre.  I LOVE the fact that there's a dart board right behind Ennis's head.  It really is right behind his head... so you only notice it on occasion when he moves his head or when the camera shifts.  I like thinking of those darts as cowboy versions of cupid's arrows.  And all those darts are pointing towards Ennis as if they've come from Jack's direction.  I also quite like the lasso that's behind and to the side of Ennis (it's much more visible and is hanging on the large bull's skull on the wall).  The spirals of rope next to Ennis's head seem to indicate that all sorts of complicated things are going on inside Ennis's mind (that he might be tangled in knots, metaphorically speaking, in certain ways).  In contrast, Jack is very noticeably sitting in a bright ray of sunshine.  Or the ray of sunshine frames him from behind.  He's clearly in the position of the "beloved" here or the object of Ennis's emerging attraction.

 :D

wowie, great observations Amanda. I'll look for it this coming Monday.  ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 09, 2006, 11:53:03 pm
thanks starboardlight!

I'm in love with that dart board... and that ray of light at the moment.

There's another detail that I love about the beginning of the film (it's way off topic from the early bar scene).  I LOVE that there are no credits at the beginning of the movie.  Leaving all the credits until the end wonderfully lulls the viewer into the pace and mood of the film immediately.  I love that Lee allows the scenery and the gorgeous score to do all the work here... and doesn't let something as mundane as credits break into this.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: starboardlight on June 10, 2006, 01:39:11 am
thanks starboardlight!

I'm in love with that dart board... and that ray of light at the moment.

There's another detail that I love about the beginning of the film (it's way off topic from the early bar scene).  I LOVE that there are no credits at the beginning of the movie.  Leaving all the credits until the end wonderfully lulls the viewer into the pace and mood of the film immediately.  I love that Lee allows the scenery and the gorgeous score to do all the work here... and doesn't let something as mundane as credits break into this.

i took note of that too, right from my first viewing. People do opening credits just because it's tradition, but Lee breaks away from that. The establishing shot of the layered land scape along with those two distinctive lone notes really set the mood and tone for the movie. I agree doing a title sequence would really interrupt that. It's one of the most memorable opening shots in my recollection.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on June 10, 2006, 04:20:35 am
thanks starboardlight!

I'm in love with that dart board... and that ray of light at the moment.

There's another detail that I love about the beginning of the film (it's way off topic from the early bar scene).  I LOVE that there are no credits at the beginning of the movie.  Leaving all the credits until the end wonderfully lulls the viewer into the pace and mood of the film immediately.  I love that Lee allows the scenery and the gorgeous score to do all the work here... and doesn't let something as mundane as credits break into this.

It took me 4 or 5 viewings before I noticed this. You're both right, I think it helps to draw the viewer into the movie right from the get-go.
At my first vieweing I couldn't believe this was more than two hours. And on my second viewing, my third...
I can't understand why some people find it (too) long and too slow. I always plan to pay more attention to  details, esp. to details I read about and haven't notived before. Meanwhile I succeed for the first part of the movie, but then I get lost again. Esp. the last third is still too devastating to be able to recognize anything beyond the obvious through the tears.
So I'm searching the screencaps for details again and again  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 10, 2006, 08:00:29 am
Tell you what, I just noticed something new yesterday too. 

In the Thanksgiving scene at Monroes house.  Right when Ennis is storming out of the house, you'll see a picture hanging to the left of the front door.   It is of the snow capped Mountains!     Ennis making a fast exit to the mountains?   From the suspicious eyes of his ex-wife to the lure of the mountains where he was happy with Jack....

Sigh......(wipes Tear)   :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on June 10, 2006, 04:12:55 pm
In the Thanksgiving scene at Monroes house.  Right when Ennis is storming out of the house, you'll see a picture hanging to the left of the front door.   It is of the snow capped Mountains!    

Hi david,
I noticed it too, but only after I read a post by Casey Cornelius about it over on imdb.  ;D I've only seen the movie in the theater (12 or so times) because I don't have the dvd yet, but honestly, I get so swept up by all the emotions I'm going through that I 'm not in the right frame of mind to pay attention to all the sublime details. A prayer of thanks to all the people who actually do and are so kind as to tell you about it.
Here's the link to casey's post: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/43227111?d=43227111#43227111
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 10, 2006, 06:34:20 pm
I wasn't quite sure where to post this pic.     This appears to be a pic taken during rehearsal of the last night drinking.   The final scene was shot later and Jack had a coat on.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: alec716 on June 10, 2006, 09:12:33 pm
Talk about subtle details... notice the ironed crease in Jack's newer jeans, in contrast to Ennis' more rumpled demin... Jack did really move up a notch or two economically, and it shows in the details.  I also remember noticing that his parkas and vests got more expensive and newer while Ennis' coats were worn and worn and worn.

thanks for the picture.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 10, 2006, 09:17:51 pm
Oh most definitely!    You really see the economic gap widen between Jack and Ennis through out the movie.   Jacks new jeans are a good example.  He also has several different cowboy hats, all in great shape, unlike the well worn ones Ennis has.      Jack always has a new pickup truck.  Ennis has an old beat up one.   

Yup, the Twists are doing just fine.  But I'm sure Jack would give up every dime to live with Ennis in a shack.   :-\
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 10, 2006, 09:20:19 pm
Yup, the Twists are doing just fine.  But I'm sure Jack would give up every dime to live with Ennis in a shack.   :-\

LOL, you read my mind David!  I was just about to post something similar.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: alec716 on June 10, 2006, 09:25:05 pm
Yup, the Twists are doing just fine.  But I'm sure Jack would give up every dime to live with Ennis in a shack.   :-\

NO DOUBT!  And so would I, for that matter.  But do people really think that Jack and Ennis could have lived and worked alongside hateful Father Twist?  Sorry if that's OT... maybe it belongs in a different thread.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 10, 2006, 09:32:37 pm
Well,  if they could have built a cabin on the far side of the ranch it might have worked for a while.     But I'd bet that the Old man would continue to belittle Jack.  And when Ennis saw the way Jack was being treated, He'd want to punch the old man!   LOL.

Too bad Jack didn't outlive his father.    Then I could easily see he and Ennis moving up to the ranch with his Mom.     She'd bake them Cherry cake.  Ennis would be so polite.  She'd dote after the boys.      At least that's how my Happy BBM ending would be.   
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: alec716 on June 10, 2006, 09:43:10 pm
Excellent!  Thanks for the chuckle.  The Widow Twist could have started the first PFLAG chapter in Wyoming, and Bobby could have had the first "I love my gay dads" t-shirt in the Great American West.  Now what if Bobby and Jenny took a fancy to each other over summer vacation?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 10, 2006, 10:03:42 pm
NO DOUBT!  And so would I, for that matter.  But do people really think that Jack and Ennis could have lived and worked alongside hateful Father Twist?  Sorry if that's OT... maybe it belongs in a different thread.  Just a thought.


Welcome to BetterMost alec716, grab a cup of coffee and some cherry cake!  I've always thought the issue of Ennis living on the ranch alongside John Twist is a really interesting question.  It just so happens that there's already a thread on this subject that used to be quite active.  Here's the link... and I bumped it in the Open Forum board here at BetterMost.  It's called Ennis and Old Man Twist.
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1922.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1922.0)

Thinking about the "what if" question about Ennis and Jack living together at Lightning Flat... I just love the detail that latjoreme once pointed out about the extra building on the property that we see when Ennis pulls up to the house.  It seems like a sign that this could have been the cabin where Jack and Ennis could have built a life... But the building is falling apart, un-used.  A sign of a major missed opportunity.  So, literally, Jack was wanting to live in a shack with Ennis.  Clearly they would have fixed the cabin up a bit, but nothing on Lightning Flat would probably ever be as cushy as Jack's Texas house.  I've also always wondered whether or not Ennis could have pulled himself out of poverty a bit if he teamed up with Jack to go into business on a ranch.  He would at least have been his own boss.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: alec716 on June 10, 2006, 11:14:20 pm
Excellent!  Thanks for the chuckle.  The Widow Twist could have started the first PFLAG chapter in Wyoming, and Bobby could have had the first "I love my gay dads" t-shirt in the Great American West.  Now what if Bobby and Jenny took a fancy to each other over summer vacation?

And if had not been so tired and had 3 St. Bernards bugging me for a walk when I accidentally pressed "post," I would have added "oh, that already happened on Will & Grace..."  I guess the lateness makes it lame, but I tried.... MUST go to sleep now! 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: alec716 on June 12, 2006, 08:31:49 pm
here's the subtle detail I love today ...

that that huge combine machine Jack helps young Bobby to drive is, as indicated by the logo above the front grille,

"Versatile."

 :o
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 13, 2006, 01:24:15 am
I always plan to pay more attention to  details, esp. to details I read about and haven't notived before. Meanwhile I succeed for the first part of the movie, but then I get lost again. Esp. the last third is still too devastating to be able to recognize anything beyond the obvious through the tears.

Me too, Penth. One thing I have noticed is animal skulls on the wall when Jack and Ennis are together -- there's one in the bar where they're having beers and (maybe?) one somewhere else. So I always think, maybe that skull means something; I'd better watch and see if I spot any other skulls. I never do, but I'm not sure if that's because they don't exist or because I get too caught up in the story and forget to look. Anybody else see any?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on June 13, 2006, 01:53:36 am
maggiesmom, you got it.  Completely.  Mrs. Twist knows that the love of her son's life is in her house.  She wants to keep him there as long as possible so as to keep a piece of her beloved son alive - hence the "You come back and see us" and the grasping at her own throat.  But we know Ennis will never come back - he's seen all he needs to see.  And really, so does she.  That's what so overwhelmingly (in my case, anyway) heartbreaking about this scene.
I like to think that as time went by Ennis returned to Lightning Flat as Jack did at least yearly after his trips with Ennis to help on the old ranch. In Jacks place he may have come to live there after his father passed to help Mrs. Twist as his way of honering Jack and the kindness his mother gave him. Of course he would have Jacks childhood room, the shirts returning to the closet where Jack safley protected them for so many years. This is where Ennis would have felt closest to Jack, where he grew up.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on June 13, 2006, 02:04:02 am
Even if he never told her about them, she would know that Jack would never wear a shirt like Ennis'.  His shirts were always solid.  When you watch the other stuff hanging there, there are a couple of coats and solid shirts.  A loving mama would recognize immediately that it wasn't his shirt but another man's, and she'd have already known Jack was gay by her very lovingness and acceptance of him.  Add to that, as you say, his talk of Ennis Del Mar, and she'd have it all put together.
In the camping scene after the reunion Jack IS wearing a plaid shirt under his jacket, but its the only time.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 13, 2006, 07:45:36 am
I like to think that as time went by Ennis returned to Lightning Flat as Jack did at least yearly after his trips with Ennis to help on the old ranch. In Jacks place he may have come to live there after his father passed to help Mrs. Twist as his way of honering Jack and the kindness his mother gave him. Of course he would have Jacks childhood room, the shirts returning to the closet where Jack safley protected them for so many years. This is where Ennis would have felt closest to Jack, where he grew up.

OMG!
   That is exactly how I want to see the future for Ennis! 

Ennis has no family other that his daughters.   We know Ennis likes to work on a ranch, so why not up in Lightning Flat?    I can easily see him getting a postcard from Jacks Mom saying that the old stud duck has died and that Ennis is welcome to come back for Jacks ashes.    Ennis would go up there and end up helping our on the ranch.    With nothing back in Riverton for him except that lonely old trailer, he accepts an invitation to stay and live there while he helps run the ranch.    Maybe Bobby Twist gets thrown out of the Newsomes life when he comes out of the closet.  He ends up driving up to Lightning flat to meet his Grandma.      He meets Ennis who becomes a step Father to him.     
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Jane on June 13, 2006, 07:56:22 am

OMG!
   That is exactly how I want to see the future for Ennis! 

Ennis has no family other that his daughters.   We know Ennis likes to work on a ranch, so why not up in Lightning Flat?    I can easily see him getting a postcard from Jacks Mom saying that the old stud duck has died and that Ennis is welcome to come back for Jacks ashes.    Ennis would go up there and end up helping our on the ranch.    With nothing back in Riverton for him except that lonely old trailer, he accepts an invitation to stay and live there while he helps run the ranch.    Maybe Bobby Twist gets thrown out of the Newsomes life when he comes out of the closet.  He ends up driving up to Lightning flat to meet his Grandma.      He meets Ennis who becomes a step Father to him.     

Yep, then Ennis can take Jacks ashes and scatter them on Brokeback Mountain like he wante,d then we can all sit and bawl our eyes out again.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 14, 2006, 12:36:45 am
Me too, Penth. One thing I have noticed is animal skulls on the wall when Jack and Ennis are together -- there's one in the bar where they're having beers and (maybe?) one somewhere else. So I always think, maybe that skull means something; I'd better watch and see if I spot any other skulls. I never do, but I'm not sure if that's because they don't exist or because I get too caught up in the story and forget to look. Anybody else see any?

Hey there Katherine.  Yes, there's definitely that large bull's skull on the bar wall behind Ennis's head (with the lasso around it) in that early bar scene.  Ennis gets the big skull/ lasso and Jack gets sunshine (and other details that are hard to pick out) as background details behind there respective heads.  And, the one other animal head I can think of is in Aguirre's trailer right at the beginning.  There's a sad little jackrabbit's (?) head on the wall.  It's not a skull... it's essentially a taxidermied head (it still has white fur).  I'm really not sure what kind of animal it is.


And, about this subject of the shirts... Yeah, I think it's a really good idea to point out that Mrs. Twist probably would realize that Ennis's shirt was not at all the style of shirt that Jack would have worn, so that she would be clued into its significance (by that and by her understanding of Jack broadly).  It's curious to note that Jack wears a patterned shirt to the reunion camping trip, because this is also the first time that we see him wearing that darned light-colored hat (always a bit of a puzzle to me... despite the numerous discussions here and there about the subject).  So, in the reunion Jack is taking a step towards dressing like Ennis.  I wonder though, did Jack wear a patterned shirt as one of his layers the summer that he returns to Aguirre's trailer (the look what the wind blew in scene)?  Still, I do think it may be significant that Jack is skewing towards dressing a bit like Ennis... Because, I've always wondered about Ennis's comment to Alma as he's rushing out the door to get to the motel following the reunion kiss.  He says his smokes are in "the top pocket of my blue shirt".  We've never seen Ennis wearing a solid blue shirt (a la Jack)... we have seen him wear the shirt with the blue intersecting lines with a white background (the "you bet" post office scene).  But, here at least Ennis is mentioning very Jack-like clothing.  Maybe a sign that this is a moment when they're truly interconnected.
 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on June 14, 2006, 01:07:19 am
Hey there Katherine.  Yes, there's definitely that large bull's skull on the bar wall behind Ennis's head (with the lasso around it) in that early bar scene.  Ennis gets the big skull/ lasso and Jack gets sunshine (and other details that are hard to pick out) as background details behind there respective heads.  And, the one other animal head I can think of is in Aguirre's trailer right at the beginning.  There's a sad little jackrabbit's (?) head on the wall.  It's not a skull... it's essentially a taxidermied head (it still has white fur).  I'm really not sure what kind of animal it is.


And, about this subject of the shirts... Yeah, I think it's a really good idea to point out that Mrs. Twist probably would realize that Ennis's shirt was not at all the style of shirt that Jack would have worn, so that she would be clued into its significance (by that and by her understanding of Jack broadly).  It's curious to note that Jack wears a patterned shirt to the reunion camping trip, because this is also the first time that we see him wearing that darned light-colored hat (always a bit of a puzzle to me... despite the numerous discussions here and there about the subject).  So, in the reunion Jack is taking a step towards dressing like Ennis.  I wonder though, did Jack wear a patterned shirt as one of his layers the summer that he returns to Aguirre's trailer (the look what the wind blew in scene)?  Still, I do think it may be significant that Jack is skewing towards dressing a bit like Ennis... Because, I've always wondered about Ennis's comment to Alma as he's rushing out the door to get to the motel following the reunion kiss.  He says his smokes are in "the top pocket of my blue shirt".  We've never seen Ennis wearing a solid blue shirt (a la Jack)... we have seen him wear the shirt with the blue intersecting lines with a white background (the "you bet" post office scene).  But, here at least Ennis is mentioning very Jack-like clothing.  Maybe a sign that this is a moment when they're truly interconnected.
 
You are right Jack DID also wear a large pattern plaid under his outer shirt the next summer at the Agguire trailer.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on June 14, 2006, 04:56:21 am
This talk of shirts.. just a thought, it's fairly way out but if I can't say it here where can I say it ? (The loony house   :laugh:) Maybe when they were apart they got to dressing a bit like the other in a way to make up for the absence, possibly even subconsciously, trying to make a connection somehow.  I know if I were apart from someone I felt strongly for, they would more or less be on my mind most of the time whether I liked it or not (like BBM is now!) and in everyday moments I'd think of that person.  "oh, XXXX would love that" , "this is XXXX's favourite food", etc. Somehow the same kind of thing might have extended to clothing.    ???
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on June 14, 2006, 07:02:57 am
I know if I were apart from someone I felt strongly for, they would more or less be on my mind most of the time whether I liked it or not (like BBM is now!) and in everyday moments I'd think of that person.  "oh, XXXX would love that" , "this is XXXX's favourite food", etc. Somehow the same kind of thing might have extended to clothing.    ???
Absolutely, Nic. The symbolism of the shirts is so powerful. They really were thinking of each other by wearing each others colours. In the 'You bet' scene Ennis is actually wearing both colours. And not just the shirts, the symbolism comes through in the colour of their cars too. In the final lake scene, Ennis's car is blue and Jack's is brown.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on June 14, 2006, 08:08:05 am
This talk of shirts.. just a thought, it's fairly way out but if I can't say it here where can I say it ? (The loony house   :laugh:) Maybe when they were apart they got to dressing a bit like the other in a way to make up for the absence, possibly even subconsciously, trying to make a connection somehow.  I know if I were apart from someone I felt strongly for, they would more or less be on my mind most of the time whether I liked it or not (like BBM is now!) and in everyday moments I'd think of that person.  "oh, XXXX would love that" , "this is XXXX's favourite food", etc. Somehow the same kind of thing might have extended to clothing.    ???

No, this is not way out. We've actually discussed this on another thread (don't remeber on which one). Ennis is wearing blue often when he's not with Jack. His blue Jeans jacket. He wears it only once when he is together with Jack (the scond to last trip when Ennis asks Jack whether he thinks sometimes that other people might suspect). Otherwise, he wears tan/brown/beige colour when with Jack (except the jeans).
And Jack wears solid blue/anthracite colours when with Ennis. Being not together with Ennis we can see him with a brownish jacket and pattern shirt at least once (in Aguirres trailer when asking for Ennis).
Does Jack wear a pattern shirt on another occasion than in Aguirres trailer? I think it's the only time, isn't it?
 
Quote
and in everyday moments I'd think of that person.  "oh, XXXX would love that" , "this is XXXX's favourite food", etc. Somehow the same kind of thing might have extended to clothing.   
Yep  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on June 14, 2006, 08:40:55 am
Phew, I'm not going totally loopythen! (in that respect at least)  I assume this must be intentional on behalf of the film production & it's amazing they give this much attention to detail.  I wonder if they had a clue every single thing would be pored over to such an extent.  I'm sure they & the actors would be made up to know that the viewers pick up on these things. It is certainly a great film for subtle details. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 14, 2006, 09:07:19 am
Nic, if you're loopy then most of us are. (Well, most of us are, but ...) Here's a thread called "color coordination" in which the significance of shirt colors and others is discussed:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1247.msg25186#msg25186 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1247.msg25186#msg25186)

And the subject of colors is also a big part of the "black hats, white hats" thread:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1266.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1266.0)

There are lots and lots of examples. I think my favorite is in the tar-spreading scene. Tired of listening to his blabbermouth coworker, Ennis gazes off into the distance, thinking of Jack -- and wearing an uncharacteristically bright blue plaid shirt.

And speaking of truck colors, there's a blue and brown truck (faded blue with big splotches of light brownish rust) parked to the side of Aguirre's trailer. From some camera angles, it is between Ennis and Jack.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on June 14, 2006, 02:21:53 pm
And, the one other animal head I can think of is in Aguirre's trailer right at the beginning.  There's a sad little jackrabbit's (?) head on the wall.  It's not a skull... it's essentially a taxidermied head (it still has white fur).  I'm really not sure what kind of animal it is.

Working from memory here (and it's been several weeks since I watched the movie), but I think it's a mountain goat. (Long, fuzzy white hair, little bitty horns?)

Another detail I like: when Ennis is following Jack into the bar at the beginning of movie, their strides are exactly in sync. Every single step, matching strides.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on June 14, 2006, 04:29:01 pm
In the couple of seconds before it shifts to the "tent don't look right" scene, I love how, as Jack is carrying a big gnarly tree limb on his shoulder, Ennis reaches over and touches -  Jack's shoulder?  The wood?

I also love how in the close up of Jack saying "...redlined it all the way," Heath acts with his ear - you can literally see his ear smile.

I love how Jack's mouth twitches right before he says, "Friend, that's more words..."

I love Jack's facial response to "when I got the entry fee in my pocket," like "Oh yeah, I'm familiar with being in that situation!"

Cassie's face after Ennis says, "Good for you."

After Ennis tells Alma Jr. "With the round up coming, I won't ever be home," I love how his face is checking for reassurance from her that she is okay with him saying no.

Those are some.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on June 14, 2006, 04:48:22 pm
Nic, if you're loopy then most of us are. (Well, most of us are, but ...) Here's a thread called "color coordination" in which the significance of shirt colors and others is discussed:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1247.msg25186#msg25186 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1247.msg25186#msg25186)

And the subject of colors is also a big part of the "black hats, white hats" thread:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1266.0 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1266.0)

...snip...
Thanks for the links.  There is so much to check in my next viewing, plus being on the look out for more subtle details.  Never enough time, never enough... :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 14, 2006, 07:44:45 pm
I also love how in the close up of Jack saying "...redlined it all the way," Heath acts with his ear - you can literally see his ear smile.

I've noticed this, too, but I'll have to admit I don't find it all that lovable because I would prefer to see his face. He smiles seldom enough as it is!

I love all your others, though, Clarissa. Particularly Jack's mouth twitching. So here's another mouth twitch I love: Ennis' twitch, in something like a smile, when Jack says "How bout you?" It's almost enough to make up for his lame answer.
 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 14, 2006, 07:54:06 pm
Tell you what...  all these little subtle details we love make up the entire movie!

For what Focus features called "just an Art House Film", these boys sure put 110% into every little detail.   I don't even have to watch the film to start crying.   I just think of our beloved Jack & Ennis and I can get misty eyed.    :-\ 

I don't care what the Academy voters thought.  The more I watch this film, the more I feel it is an F'ing masterpiece!     
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: alec716 on June 14, 2006, 07:59:26 pm
today's favorite detail...

the quick glance that Ennis gives from his seat on the fireside log into the tent in which shirtless Jack is waiting for him ... helping himself gather the courage to take charge of his fate and enter the tent and Jack's arms.

(sigh).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: alec716 on June 14, 2006, 08:05:33 pm
Tell you what...  all these little subtle details we love make up the entire movie!

For what Focus features called "just an Art House Film", these boys sure put 110% into every little detail.   I don't even have to watch the film to start crying.   I just think of our beloved Jack & Ennis and I can get misty eyed.    :-\ 

I don't care what the Academy voters thought.  The more I watch this film, the more I feel it is an F'ing masterpiece!     

Tell you what, DavidinHartford, your words are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT... and I don't think anyone here will lay you out in the wild columbine for speaking them. 

The layers and layers and layers of this story, in both filmed and written versions, continue to percolate through my mind and heart.  This obsession with a story is a completely new experience for me, and it's great to have this forum to help me continue to learn and think about it.

So, good to know you, BetterMostians!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 14, 2006, 08:09:21 pm
A favorite detail of mine:   When Ennis is at the bridge picking up the weeks supplies, he lets out a frustrated audible pause when he notices the order is incomplete.    Poor Jack won't get his spuds!    And Ennis wants to please Jack!

So sweet.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on June 14, 2006, 09:00:55 pm
Apologies if any or all of these have already been mentioned...

...I love the way that Ennis strokes Jack's collar in the flashback scene. Such a loving gesture.

...I also love the way Jack says "That ain't the point" when he's bitching about Aguirre making him sleep with the sheep. The way it's said smacks of a real intimacy in the (then) friendship to me.

...And i also love the look on Jack's face when he's trying to control his horse before the morning ride to the sheep (when Ennis leans back to check him out afterwards). You can see how desperate Jack is to look proficient at anything in front of Ennis, especially since he can't even open a can of beans without spilling them everywhere. It's so endearing.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 15, 2006, 12:25:15 am
Another detail I like: when Ennis is following Jack into the bar at the beginning of movie, their strides are exactly in sync. Every single step, matching strides.

Yeah, this is a very nice detail, I agree.  I also love that almost without exception Jack is always in front when the two of them are traveling anywhere.  One of the cutest exceptions is following the mixed-up sheep herd fiasco, Ennis and Jack are riding side by side while Jack plays his harmonica.  I think everything about that little scene of them riding next to each other is meant to convey the idea that they're in harmony at this stage and things are at a relatively smooth moment in their relationship (the color of the sky, the smooth way the sheep are all moving together... and especially Ennis's smile and adoring look at Jack, all make the scene feel really peaceful to me).


Quote
I also love how in the close up of Jack saying "...redlined it all the way," Heath acts with his ear - you can literally see his ear smile.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Ellemeno, this is a great detail and the idea of acting with an ear is fabulous.


Quote
Does Jack wear a pattern shirt on another occasion than in Aguirres trailer? I think it's the only time, isn't it?

Penthesilea, I think Jack wears a patterned shirt during the prayer of thanks camping trip.   
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on June 15, 2006, 01:10:26 am
I love: Ennis' twitch, in something like a smile, when Jack says "How bout you?" It's almost enough to make up for his lame answer.

Oh yeah!  They both do amazing face-acting in that whole scene.  Ennis's whole face brightens up along with that twitch, from about 3% expressiveness to 9% expressiveness, which is a whole lot on the Ennis expressive-o-meter for any emotion other than anger.  And then damps back down again with "Reckon there's nothing we can do..."  :(

More face from that scene, Jack's "'course he hates my guts." 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 15, 2006, 01:26:32 am
Ennis's whole face brightens up along with that twitch, from about 3% expressiveness to 9% expressiveness, which is a whole lot on the Ennis expressive-o-meter for any emotion other than anger.

Exactly. And then, a second later, he goes from  :) to  :-\.

I love the "course he hates my guts" look, too. And also the "Nope, too busted up. Rodeo ain't what it was in my daddy's day" and then Ennis shakes his head and agrees, "No." How would he know? But it's a cute sort of bonding line.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on June 15, 2006, 06:40:29 am
...I love the way that Ennis strokes Jack's collar in the flashback scene. Such a loving gesture.

Me too. And especially, the way Ennis's thumb seems to 'struggle' at first to keep Jack's collar down.
What is it with Ennis and his thumb anyway? Did you notice his thumb seemed to be 'stuck' in Jack's eye just for a second as he was stroking Jack's face in the second tent scene? One of the many subtle things that make the scene so realistic, and Ennis so endearing.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on June 15, 2006, 09:02:07 am
Did you notice his thumb seemed to be 'stuck' in Jack's eye just for a second as he was stroking Jack's face in the second tent scene? One of the many subtle things that make the scene so realistic, and Ennis so endearing.

I did notice this, and you're absolutely right. The look on his face is a physicalisation of the close proximity of pleasure and pain. He can hardly belive he's doing this, and at the same time he's so overwhelmed he can't decide which part of Jack he wants to touch first. The speed at which his hand passes over Jack's face and chest is like he's almost afraid to linger in any one place too long. Like his words, the emotions are fighting their way out of him. So when Jack rolls on top of him he can't put his arms around him, but can only leave them in a position of submission - "Please Jack, you've gotta take the reins on this one!".

I think everything about that little scene of them riding next to each other is meant to convey the idea that they're in harmony at this stage and things are at a relatively smooth moment in their relationship (the color of the sky, the smooth way the sheep are all moving together... and especially Ennis's smile and adoring look at Jack, all make the scene feel really peaceful to me).

Totally agree Amanda (did I get your name right?? :-\). And i think the way that Jack is slumped on the horse is important too. I think in practically all the other scenes when Jack is on the horse he's performing for Ennis, trying to prove his horsemanship to impress him. But here he's completely relaxed - nothing left to prove.


Another bit i really like is Jack's little nods as Ennis tells him of his plans to marry Alma after they've come off the mountain. Breaks my heart every time. Such a look of desperate resignation on his face  :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 15, 2006, 09:22:41 am
The look on his face is a physicalisation of the close proximity of pleasure and pain. He can hardly belive he's doing this, and at the same time he's so overwhelmed he can't decide which part of Jack he wants to touch first. The speed at which his hand passes over Jack's face and chest is like he's almost afraid to linger in any one place too long.

Good description, saucy. To me, the expression is kind of like Jack's in the reunion kiss. Like, this is so unbelievably great, it's almost painful. Ennis is in a situation he'd probably longed for on and off throughout his life, subliminally or otherwise, when he saw attractive men. But he never for a second thought he'd be allowed to experience it. And here it is happening, under ideal circumstances, with someone he's not only attracted to but actually in love with, and who feels the same way about him. How perfect is that?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 15, 2006, 09:29:41 am
And Jack, sensing that Ennis is uncomfortable in Riverton suggests he move to Texas.   

Poor Jack, always getting shot down.
   :'(

(http://static.flickr.com/73/167668393_6844ed93f0.jpg?v=0)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on June 15, 2006, 09:33:03 am
And Jack, sensing that Ennis is uncomfortable in Riverton suggests he move to Texas.  

Poor Jack, always getting shot down.

Poor Jack indeed. Emotionally he's so brave - constantly putting himself on the line for Ennis  :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 15, 2006, 09:36:29 am
oh!  and as Jack walks over to the stream where Ennis is washing the pots and pans, you notice that Jack has a small belly starting to show!     Ah yes, the middle age slump!    He he he!  Nice touch Ang!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 15, 2006, 09:47:19 am
I love the Ennis express-o-meter! Had to LOL at that one. Part of the reason I enjoyed watching Casanova was seeing Heath's face unfrozen. I have to disagree with everybody about Ennis's stroking Jack's jacket being a lovable detail. Every time I see Ennis stroking or clinging to Jack's clothing, I start gnashing my teeth because it's the man who he should be touching, not the clothing! In making that crucial mistake, look what he gets in the end, an empty life and a closet with Jack's shirt in it.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 15, 2006, 10:00:41 am
I have to disagree with everybody about Ennis's stroking Jack's jacket being a lovable detail. Every time I see Ennis stroking or clinging to Jack's clothing, I start gnashing my teeth because it's the man who he should be touching, not the clothing! In making that crucial mistake, look what he gets in the end, an empty life and a closet with Jack's shirt in it.

Interesting, Lee! It's like a deliberate theme. There are those few times early on when you see him touching actual skin, and then never again. From then on it's clothes and, eventually, empty clothes.

Of course, in "real life," Ennis and Jack probably touched skin pretty often throughout the years, but this seems like another one of those maddening tricks Ang uses to make the viewers feel their frustration.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on June 15, 2006, 10:20:26 am
It's like a deliberate theme. There are those few times early on when you see him touching actual skin, and then never again. From then on it's clothes and, eventually, empty clothes.

Wow, interesting angle. No wonder we're all rewatching it so often. People keep coming up with new things to look for!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 15, 2006, 06:40:19 pm
I love the Ennis express-o-meter! Had to LOL at that one. Part of the reason I enjoyed watching Casanova was seeing Heath's face unfrozen. I have to disagree with everybody about Ennis's stroking Jack's jacket being a lovable detail. Every time I see Ennis stroking or clinging to Jack's clothing, I start gnashing my teeth because it's the man who he should be touching, not the clothing! In making that crucial mistake, look what he gets in the end, an empty life and a closet with Jack's shirt in it.

Wow, this is really a sad way to look at this.  But, I think you're right.  Maybe the stroking of the clothes is another manifestation of Ennis's frustrating reserve too.  But, there are a few great moments regarding Ennis actually touching Jack... The second tent scene has been pretty well discussed in recent posts... And, other than that the best example has to be all the face caressing during the reunion.  After the first kiss while they're looking so intensely into each other's eyes, I LOVE the way Ennis runs his hand down Jack's face... starting with the eyebrow and proceeding to his ear.  I think Ennis is very tactile when it comes to his fingers (es. caressing the postcard, caressing the tie of the tent flap the morning after the 1st tent scene).  Oh, thinking of the 1st tent scene... I also LOVE how he caresses Jack's hair and ear after the little bout of pushing and shoving... right when Ennis seems to give in to the situation.
 :)

Quote
Poor Jack, always getting shot down.
David, I think that pic you posted is a great example of another aspect of Jake's acting (by the way, sometime I have to force myself to type Jake rather than Jack... I wonder how many bloopers happened on set over mixing up those two names once in a while).

Anyway, it's amazing how well Jake expresses the idea of "stress" or the increasingly worn-out look about Jack, starting after the divorce fiasco... not quite dejection, still a little hopeful, but a bit of a shadow of his younger self.
 :'(


Quote
I love the "course he hates my guts" look, too. And also the "Nope, too busted up. Rodeo ain't what it was in my daddy's day" and then Ennis shakes his head and agrees, "No." How would he know? But it's a cute sort of bonding line.

Katherine, I like this idea of "bonding" again through chatting... this was clearly a big part of the two of them falling for each other on the mountain and a good detail demonstrating that Ennis really does think of Jack as his "good friend" and confidant as well as lover.  I think they "bonded" over their mutual exclamation right at the beginning of the scene of "4 years!" as if they've both been holding their breath for all those years.  One of my favorite aspects of Ennis's conversation here in the motel (other than his attempt to demonstrate interest in the rodeo topic) is that he shows genuine concern for Jack.  He shows that he's been worrying about that punch for 4 years... and I think he's probably been worried that the army did "get Jack."  A scary prospect in the mid-late '60s.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 15, 2006, 06:56:54 pm
I think they "bonded" over their mutual exclamation right at the beginning of the scene of "4 years!" as if they've both been holding their breath for all those years.  One of my favorite aspects of Ennis's conversation here in the motel (other than his attempt to demonstrate interest in the rodeo topic) is that he shows genuine concern for Jack.  He shows that he's been worrying about that punch for 4 years... and I think he's probably been worried that the army did "get Jack."  A scary prospect in the mid-late '60s.

"As if they've been holding their breath for all those years" -- good way to describe it. I love that moment because it's such a stark contrast to their parting four years earlier. That was so sad -- imagine embarking on a new romance and then parting shortly afterward without so much as a tender word or even a handshake. But in the reunion, it was like they both intuitively knew that when they met again everything would be different (or maybe back to the way it had been on the mountain).

Back to the motel, it's a cute conversation also because it resembles the cliche movie post-sex scene -- lying in bed smoking -- yet it's so different; the cliched couples in those scenes aren't talking about punching each other or how much rodeoin has changed over the years.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 15, 2006, 06:57:42 pm
Thanks for reminding me of the times Ennis did touch Jack, Amanda.  :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 15, 2006, 07:12:18 pm
the cliched couples in those scenes aren't talking about punching each other or how much rodeoin has changed over the years.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Thanks for reminding me of the times Ennis did touch Jack, Amanda.  :D

Happy to oblige.   ;) :)

But, as I said I think you're right too about his tendency to go for the clothes.  It is a bit like foreshadowing or foreboding. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 25, 2006, 01:10:26 am
So, here's a question.  What is the deal with Ennis's pajama bottoms? 
 ??? :o

And another.  What is the deal with Jack's interior decorating in the Texas house?  Bright yellow chair?  Bright, bright purple dining room chairs?
 ??? :o
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on June 25, 2006, 03:48:58 am
I have to disagree with everybody about Ennis's stroking Jack's jacket being a lovable detail. Every time I see Ennis stroking or clinging to Jack's clothing, I start gnashing my teeth because it's the man who he should be touching, not the clothing!

I agree with this.  Hunnerd per cent.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on June 25, 2006, 04:01:04 am
So, here's a question.  What is the deal with Ennis's pajama bottoms? 
 ??? :o

I know! Everything else in his wardrobe looks like he picked it up at Sears, but his PJs look like they came from a hip vintage store (though as somebody -- Lynne? -- pointed out once, today's hip vintage stores sell clothes bought at Sears in 1967).

Also, they're so tight and low slung! Mind you, I ain't complainin.  ;) ::)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 25, 2006, 08:06:02 am
.  What is the deal with Jack's interior decorating in the Texas house?  Bright yellow chair?  Bright, bright purple dining room chairs?
 ??? :o

Doubtful it was Jacks decorating.   Lureen was brought up with money, so she would likely want to buy the latest style of furniture etc.    Jacks only extravagance in his buying habits was his new truck every few years, camping gear and whiskey.  Although he does always seem to have nice new clothes too.   But that might be Lureens influence.

As for those purple chairs?   Well...it was the seventies remember!   I think the set decorator did a great job capturing the period feeling throughout the movie.   Defining the economic lifestyles of the two families was well done too.   

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 25, 2006, 05:07:39 pm
Thanks for the ideas regarding the oh so important topics of pajama bottoms and interior decorating.  David, yes, I agree that the "realism" in the set decoration is very good at evoking economic status and a period feel.  I guess I also agree that the Texas house is probably really meant to look like a Newsome house.  And, very Texas-in-the-'70s too I would think.  Stil, wow, what a color combination.

So, I have another random question that will reveal my ignorance regarding sheep herding culture.  Why and how were there Chilean sheep in Wyoming?  Chili is a long, long way away from Wyoming.  I mean, I love that detail in the story/ film but I've never quite understood it.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on June 25, 2006, 09:57:49 pm
Thanks for the ideas regarding the oh so important topics of pajama bottoms and interior decorating.  David, yes, I agree that the "realism" in the set decoration is very good at evoking economic status and a period feel.  I guess I also agree that the Texas house is probably really meant to look like a Newsome house.  And, very Texas-in-the-'70s too I would think too.  Stil, wow, what a color combination.

So, I have another random question that will reveal my ignorance regarding sheep herding culture.  Why and how were there Chilean sheep in Wyoming?  Chili is a long, long way away from Wyoming.  I mean, I love that detail in the story/ film but I've never quite understood it.
More to the point it doesn't mattler that the herd were mixed up. The sheep know there herdsman and simpley need to be lead away and the right sheep will follow.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on June 28, 2006, 02:30:08 am
So, I have another random question that will reveal my ignorance regarding sheep herding culture.  Why and how were there Chilean sheep in Wyoming?  Chili is a long, long way away from Wyoming.  I mean, I love that detail in the story/ film but I've never quite understood it.

I always assumed that the sheep itself were not Chilean. They were only so-called, because they were tended (not owned) by Chilean herders.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 28, 2006, 09:13:51 pm
I always assumed that the sheep itself were not Chilean. They were only so-called, because they were tended (not owned) by Chilean herders.

Oh, sure!  That definitely makes sense.  I, for some reason, had been thinking it was a breed of sheep or something.  I know next to nothing about sheep and sheep herding.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on June 28, 2006, 09:29:27 pm
Theres a scene that always makes me have a bit of a giggle....

When Ennis gets thrown from the horse when the bear scares him and is late getting back to the camp, and jack says.."Where the hell you been, I been out watching the sheep all day, and come back down, and theres no dinner for me"...(or something similar to those words)......It reminds me of a husband coming home from work, and saying to the wife "what the hell you been doin all day, and you havent even made me dinner"

Dont know if that dialgogue, was meant to look like a "husband and wife" scenario, but it did to me......
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 28, 2006, 09:41:58 pm
Hi Katie!
Welcome to BetterMost. Have a cup of coffee and a piece of cherry cake.
 :)

Oh sure, I completely agree with you about Jack's tone of voice after the bear incident.  It does sound like the voice of a nagging (but loving and concerned) significant other. I think a lot about the Brokeback summer is about showing how they developed their own version of a domestic partnership.  Completely on their own terms, and it evolved to suit both of them beautifully (until they were broken apart too soon by Aguirre cutting the summer short).  I think this is why Jack's proposal later about ranching up together and the cow and calf operation makes so much sense.  The both know they were happiest (ever) when they were living together... and that was in '63.  I think Ennis even recognizes this (even as he's rejecting Jack's idea), but he's too afraid to give it a shot.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on June 28, 2006, 10:11:27 pm

Quote
The both know they were happiest (ever) when they were living together... and that was in '63.  I think Ennis even recognizes this (even as he's rejecting Jack's idea), but he's too afraid to give it a shot.

Oh Ennis definately knows this.   In the book he tells Jack "It took me a year to figure out I shouldn't have let you out of my sights".    (They should have put that line in the movie)  So when Jack suggests they get a little cow and calf operation, Ennis knows that Jack was the best thing for him and their days on Brokeback were paradise. 

But even if Jack lived in Riverton instead of Texas, what would that have changed?    Would Ennis have not Married Alma?   No, he did that right away after leaving the Mountain.    So a year after marrying her, he'd be sneeking across town to see Jack.  But he'd still not want to get divorced and live with Jack.     Maybe he'd see more of Jack and his marriage would disintigrate faster.   Either way, there isn't a happy ending for the boys any time soon in that scenario either.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on June 28, 2006, 11:01:32 pm
Theres a scene that always makes me have a bit of a giggle....

When Ennis gets thrown from the horse when the bear scares him and is late getting back to the camp, and jack says.."Where the hell you been, I been out watching the sheep all day, and come back down, and theres no dinner for me"...(or something similar to those words)......It reminds me of a husband coming home from work, and saying to the wife "what the hell you been doin all day, and you havent even made me dinner"

Dont know if that dialgogue, was meant to look like a "husband and wife" scenario, but it did to me......
In the screenplay Jack is clearly worried, know Ennis would not slack,  covers is concern with indignation.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheyne on July 01, 2006, 10:44:00 pm

bump for later reading...

I love this thread..  :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on July 02, 2006, 12:05:31 am
Hi Katie!
Welcome to BetterMost. Have a cup of coffee and a piece of cherry cake.
 :)

Oh sure, I completely agree with you about Jack's tone of voice after the bear incident.  It does sound like the voice of a nagging (but loving and concerned) significant other. I think a lot about the Brokeback summer is about showing how they developed their own version of a domestic partnership.  Completely on their own terms, and it evolved to suit both of them beautifully (until they were broken apart too soon by Aguirre cutting the summer short).  I think this is why Jack's proposal later about ranching up together and the cow and calf operation makes so much sense.  The both know they were happiest (ever) when they were living together... and that was in '63.  I think Ennis even recognizes this (even as he's rejecting Jack's idea), but he's too afraid to give it a shot.

You certainly got the right word there anz.."domestic partnership"...I never thought of that before even though i know that is what I was seeing, and that is why that scene seemed humourous.....yes, they wer getting so comfortable with the situation werent they, the chores and the lovin.....and then Aguires news to bring the sheep down, was the end of the comfort zone, and that is why Ennis got angry/sad.....it also destroyed the comfort zone, we  as the viewer had too, we were just settling in to enjoying their life up on the mountain, when BAM!!, it was taken away from us too...Damn you Aguire.....damn you.......who knows, another month or so up there on the mountain, and Ennis may have realized that this was the life he wanted, and not gone home to marry Alma......who knows???
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: moremojo on July 05, 2006, 10:37:22 am
I don't know if this might have been mentioned here already, but last night I was revisiting the DVD, and noticed something (well, a couple or even three things really) for the first time. First of all, in the scene right before Jack's harmonica-playing moment in front of the tent, we see the boys in long shot, with Jack carrying a large piece of wood (driftwood?) on his back. I can't believe it didn't register till this late, but I noticed for the first time that Ennis goes up and pats Jack on the shoulder here. This further emphasizes Ennis's growing comfort and affection for his mountain companion.

Second thing: This news is currently making the rounds, and I just confirmed it for myself last night. The new tidbit of information is that Jack, in the first tent scene, can be heard to mutter "Fuck me" two or so times right after Ennis enters him. The words are spoken so softly as to barely register, but once heard, they are definitely present. The camera even rests on Jack's (actor Jake's) face as he utters these lines. When I first heard this news, the words somehow didn't seem right for the character in this moment, but they felt completely true and appropriate when I actually heard them. This further suggests Jack's worldliness (relative to Ennis), experience, and lust.

Third item: A friend of mine asked me to watch for a detail in the scene in which Jack returns to Signal in 1964. When we see Jack driving his truck down the road, on the sidewalk one can discern two old men (one handling a cane) walking together, going in the direction opposite from the one in which Jack is heading. My friend thought that this might illustrate the life that Ennis and Jack could have had in different circumstances, of growing old together, as lifelong companions. As I don't think any element in the film is throwaway, I certainly think my friend might be onto something here.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on July 05, 2006, 05:16:51 pm
I don't know if this might have been mentioned here already, but last night I was revisiting the DVD, and noticed something (well, a couple or even three things really) for the first time. First of all, in the scene right before Jack's harmonica-playing moment in front of the tent, we see the boys in long shot, with Jack carrying a large piece of wood (driftwood?) on his back. I can't believe it didn't register till this late, but I noticed for the first time that Ennis goes up and pats Jack on the shoulder here. This further emphasizes Ennis's growing comfort and affection for his mountain companion.

Oh my, I'm having so many spooky moments on the board this week! :o I also watched BBM last night (for the first time in 6 weeks) and noticed the exact same thing... and I'd never noticed it before either. I had to rewind and watch it again. It's a lovely moment.

Hmmmm... you know the theory that when people live together for long enough their biological rhythms become synchronised? I reckon there are more than a few instances of synchronised viewing rhythms on this board! ;D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Kazza on July 06, 2006, 11:48:43 am
Is it just my hearing (or the little voices in my head) - or is Ennis humming/singing to himself when he come back from collecting food at the bridge - just before getting 'spooked' by the bear?

I thought that  was hearing things but then I watched it again and I'm sure I can hear something. I might just have a dud DVD mind you...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: moremojo on July 06, 2006, 11:52:36 am
Is it just my hearing (or the little voices in my head) - or is Ennis humming/singing to himself when he come back from collecting food at the bridge - just before getting 'spooked' by the bear?

I thought that  was hearing things but then I watched it again and I'm sure I can hear something. I might just have a dud DVD mind you...
Oh, you heard right...he is indeed humming there, specifically a tune called "The Cowboy's Lament". I actually had a hard time discerning the humming in the theater (though I knew it was there from having read about it), but find it easier to hear on the DVD.

Cheers,
Scott
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 06, 2006, 08:41:14 pm
I've been meaning to post this lovable subtle detail for a long time, but keep getting distracted. 

I love that in the scene where Alma hides one of Jack's postcards inside a folded newspaper/ circular that the type on that newspaper includes a very prominent ad for "milk and honey."  It's as if the newspaper now contains the promise of "milk and honey" for Ennis when and hopefully if he actually finds that postcard.  And, actually, I think it says "evap." or "evaporated milk and honey"... which makes things more complicated (and I'm all for making things complicated).  I can think of two ways to interpret that idea... I guess one would be that if Ennis doesn't find that hidden postcard, his opportunity for the milk and honey that Jack is offering will evaporate or be lost this time around.  Or, it may evoke the old saying about the "land of milk and honey"... so if you add the "evaporated" it might be a reference to the lost paradise of Brokeback.  The paradise that has evaporated for Jack and Ennis... the land of milk and honey to which they can't return.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on July 06, 2006, 11:24:39 pm
Good one, Amanda!

I'm betting Ang Lee is all for complicated, too. When more than one interpretation of a symbol or metaphor seems to fit, I tend to think maybe both are right, and that it might be deliberate.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on July 07, 2006, 02:23:21 am
I've been meaning to post this lovable subtle detail for a long time, but keep getting distracted. 

I love that in the scene where Alma hides one of Jack's postcards inside a folded newspaper/ circular that the type on that newspaper includes a very prominent ad for "milk and honey." 

And as the camera lingers on the word 'honey,' the next thing we hear is Jack calling Lureen, "Honey, you seen my blue parka?"  SHE gets to be called Honey by Jack, not Ennis.  :(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on July 07, 2006, 02:25:30 am
Oh, you heard right...he is indeed humming there, specifically a tune called "The Cowboy's Lament". I actually had a hard time discerning the humming in the theater (though I knew it was there from having read about it), but find it easier to hear on the DVD.

Cheers,
Scott M.

Also by the name "Streets of Laredo."  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 08, 2006, 02:45:20 pm
And as the camera lingers on the word 'honey,' the next thing we hear is Jack calling Lureen, "Honey, you seen my blue parka?"  SHE gets to be called Honey by Jack, not Ennis.  :(

Ooooo, good catch!


So here's another detail... very different context.  I love how many empty chairs there are in the Lightning Flat scene.  They're everywhere... there's one (or two?) behind Ennis and one behind John Twist and then one at the table and then one in Jack's room.  These I'd say are meant to be constant reminders of Jack's absence.  The number of chairs is striking since the house is otherwise so empty.  Also, that black hat on the wall surely is meant to remind us of Jack (even if it really is John's hat or something).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on July 08, 2006, 05:45:27 pm
Also, that black hat on the wall surely is meant to remind us of Jack (even if it really is John's hat or something).

And it's hovering above Ennis' head like a thought balloon in a cartoon. Though to my eyes it's more dark brown than black -- is it supposed to be close enough, or could it be a mingling of white hat and black hat?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on July 09, 2006, 12:57:26 pm
Ooooo, good catch!


So here's another detail... very different context.  I love how many empty chairs there are in the Lightning Flat scene.  They're everywhere... there's one (or two?) behind Ennis and one behind John Twist and then one at the table and then one in Jack's room.  These I'd say are meant to be constant reminders of Jack's absence.  The number of chairs is striking since the house is otherwise so empty.  Also, that black hat on the wall surely is meant to remind us of Jack (even if it really is John's hat or something).

Jeez! It's amazing how much details people are detecting. I noticed neiter the relatively many chairs nor the hat behind Ennis.
Once more I checked the screencaps at stripedwall.com (great source). I counted 4 empty chairs in the kitchen: one behind John Twist (at least this one I had noticed before), one on the right behind Ennis and two at the table between them.

I think the empty chairs are there to emphasize the emptyness of the Twist house in general and the absence of Jack. I don't think the Twists often have visitors; friends or family to come around and having a good time together (ha ha, old Twist and having a good time - an antagonism itself). I think these two people barely ever need six chairs in their kitchen. Old Twist has run off every friend they might have had a long time ago, I guess. And Mrs. Twist suffers from this. Her house, her home is an empty and lonesome place. And it gets even worse after Jack's death. For Jack's mom, his visits must have been the brightest days in her year.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: fernly on July 09, 2006, 01:37:17 pm
Quote
I think the empty chairs are there to emphasize the emptyness of the Twist house in general and the absence of Jack. I don't think the Twists often have visitors; friends or family to come around and having a good time together (ha ha, old Twist and having a good time - an antagonism itself). I think these two people barely ever need six chairs in their kitchen. Old Twist has run off every friend they might have had a long time ago, I guess. And Mrs. Twist suffers from this. Her house, her home is an empty and lonesome place. And it gets even worse after Jack's death. For Jack's mom, his visits must have been the brightest days in her year.

Oh, god, what a life she had.
The emptiness in that house is in stark (pun intended) contrast to Jack and Lureen's house, where there's, if anything, way too much stuff. A fake tiger skin throw rug over white shag. White curtains closed over most of the windows, even during the daytime. Wallpaper and some other items (I don't even know what to call them) that have criss-crossing patterns like lattice fences.
But all that 'stuff' is just cover for a whole lot of emptiness, too. Not as horribly dire as at Lightning Flat, but still really sad.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 09, 2006, 01:47:59 pm
When Ennis replaces is old GMC truck he got one the same year and model as the red  and white 1966 Ford that Jack drove for the reunion. He likely knew the owner, being in a smaller town and ask to lwt him know when he would sell it. Speaking of the GMC it is interestiing to note that the truck Jack had at Signal was an earlier model GMC also dark color.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 09, 2006, 08:33:53 pm
Yeah, the trucks are interesting... Ennis is still one step behind Jack, even when it comes to trucks.  It's cute to think of Ennis pining for Jack as he picks out a new truck.


Anyway, back to the Lightning Flat house for a sec...

All the empty chairs, the almost surreal emptiness of the place combined with the creepy white walls everywhere all make this scene slightly spooky.  I feel like we can almost imagine the "ghost" of Jack inhabiting those chairs, sitting behind Ennis and listening in on this very important conversation.  I think the slight... and I do mean slight... spookiness continues in Jack's room especially with the sound of the crow that comes in once Ennis opens the window.  The most "spooky" moment to me comes with the swaying arm of one of Jack's coats in the closet (it starts swaying after Ennis caresses it) that seems to prod Ennis on to find the shirts.  Something about this eery, continuing presence of Jack just knocks me out.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: fernly on July 09, 2006, 09:36:40 pm
Quote
All the empty chairs, the almost surreal emptiness of the place combined with the creepy white walls everywhere all make this scene slight spooky.  I feel like we can almost imagine the "ghost" of Jack inhabiting those chairs, sitting behind Ennis and listening in on this very important conversation.  I think the slight... and I do mean slight... spookiness continues in Jack's room especially with the sound of the crow that comes in once Ennis opens the window.  The most "spooky" moment to me comes with the swaying arm of one of Jack's coats in the closet (it starts swaying after Ennis caresses it) that seems to prod Ennis on to find the shirts.  Something about this eery, continuing presence of Jack just knocks me out.

What also struck me, so hard, was the shadow behind Ennis when he goes in the closet. We had some discussions about this on TOB - that it can been seen as Jack's 'shade' guiding Ennis, and then embracing him when he embraces the shirts.
I don't remember seeing a shadow like that anytime else in the movie, and given the care with the lighting throughout, I wonder if it was intentional.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on July 10, 2006, 08:59:28 am
I just read something last week that reminded me of all the white in the elder Twists' house -- that in Chinese culture, white is apparently the color of mourning. All those white walls with their chipped paint, and then the little bit of blue that Mrs. Twist is wearing...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 10, 2006, 09:17:20 pm
Yes!  I love that Mrs. Twist wears blue.  Wonderful.


On a completely different note... um... I don't know whether this belongs here of in the "ain't right" thread...
But, is it possible that the Old Rose whiskey is meant to be a reference to "stemming the rose"?  I almost hate to bring this up.
 :o
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on July 11, 2006, 08:32:19 am
But, is it possible that the Old Rose whiskey is meant to be a reference to "stemming the rose"?  I almost hate to bring this up.
 :o

That's what I've imagined.  There they still are together, them and their old roses.  Sort of shocking - but Heath sure seems to delibertely hold the bottle so that we can read it.

On a completely different note -
Heath's face-acting right after putting the girls to bed, while Alma's holding him from behind, and whispering sweet nothings about the cheap apartment available.  Amazing.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Mikaela on July 11, 2006, 02:07:17 pm
Quote
That's what I've imagined.  There they still are together, them and their old roses.  Sort of shocking - but Heath sure seems to delibertely hold the bottle so that we can read it.

That's been my opinion too since I saw the name on the bottle. It refers to the "stemming the rose" quip. I mean, the visible name on the bottle, and the position and angle it's being held in....... Definitely. I don't at all think that can be be a coincidence.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 11, 2006, 03:11:57 pm
At the first campout after the reunion The look Ennis gives Jack when he starts to stroke his ear, like he is heartbroiken that he cannot be with him, and had to tell him "It aint gonna be like......". He wants to so much.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Mikaela on July 13, 2006, 05:49:32 am
**Looks at picture**

*sniff* Poor Ennis. Always seems to me his first instinct there is to pull away from Jack's hand, not wanting to acknowledge his own vulnerability and hurt - but then he lets Jack start stroking his cheek/ear, accepting the comfort and intimacy of it - in contrast to the previous Brokeback bear incident.

And as for Ennis's ears - who hasn't got a thing for Ennis's ear in the motel scene? I know I do!  :-*


On to something else:

The scene at the "lonely old ranch" where Ennis is trying to calm his two squalling daughters: I won't ever admit to how many viewings of the film it took me before I realized that Alma doing the laudry in the kitchen is also visible there, behind Ennis  - she's scrubbing away as seen through the glass panes of the children's room door *and* the kitchen window. I thought that was a great subtle detail and one that might well not have been there (knowing how scenes are always filmed out of sequence and how actors come and go from the set, - they might have filmed the scene with Heath and the children while Michelle was half the world away).

That Alma's also visible there together with Ennis and their daughters really changed and enhanced that scene for me. Instead of being specifically about Ennis as good father caring for the girls, enclosed in a small room, it becomes about Ennis and Alma and their whole little house on the prairie - the four of them as a family - the efforts and co-operation it takes to keep that little family going - their joint struggle as young, poor parents living out in the middle of nowhere. It therefore adds further nuance and depth to Ennis's trying to be a "proper" husband and father, and to the conflict in his mind in the immediately following bedroom scene with Alma. The little detail of Alma seen through the window makes the reality that is "him and Alma" even more *real* to me.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 13, 2006, 10:22:29 pm
So, here's a question.  What's your favorite subtle detail amongst all the lovable subtle details?  I'm sure this may be an impossible question for some of you... and I thought it would be for me too.  But, the more I think about it the more I realize that the way the wheel on Jack's truck spins out at the very beginning in front of Aguirre's trailer truly is my favorite detail.  I remember loving that detail from my very first theatre viewing of the film.  Who knew that a truck could have personality?!  And they say that pets come to resemble their owners after a good number of years together... well maybe the same is true with old truck.
 ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 14, 2006, 02:15:35 am


Second thing: This news is currently making the rounds, and I just confirmed it for myself last night. The new tidbit of information is that Jack, in the first tent scene, can be heard to mutter "Fuck me" two or so times right after Ennis enters him. The words are spoken so softly as to barely register, but once heard, they are definitely present. The camera even rests on Jack's (actor Jake's) face as he utters these lines. When I first heard this news, the words somehow didn't seem right for the character in this moment, but they felt completely true and appropriate when I actually heard them. This further suggests Jack's worldliness (relative to Ennis), experience, and lust.

 
[/quoteI
 I FINALLY HEARD IT BUT ONLY ONCE SO FAR
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on July 14, 2006, 09:21:55 am
OMG!   I thought it was my overactive imagination!    I'm glad someone else heard him say that!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 14, 2006, 09:56:31 am
So, here's a question.  What's your favorite subtle detail amongst all the lovable subtle details?  I'm sure this may be an impossible question for some of you... and I thought it would be for me too.  But, the more I think about it the more I realize that the way the wheel on Jack's truck spins out at the very beginning in front of Aguirre's trailer truly is my favorite detail.  I remember loving that detail from my very first theatre viewing of the film.  Who knew that a truck could have personality?!  And they say that pets come to resemble their owners after a good number of years together... well maybe the same is true with old truck.
 ;)
Here is one I saw brought up on IMB. When Ennis is leaving the Twist's at LF when he looks back at the farmhouse you see the name Jack spelled out. The way I see it in the full screen version is. J-the dark part of the first cloud. A- the frame of the house. C-second cloud. K-tree to the right. The poster said the J came from the windshield of the truck, but if they mean the front it doen't show in the full screen- and I can't make a J out of the back window without subtracting.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 14, 2006, 01:51:40 pm
One of my favorites is how the scene is held on the mountian with the sheep in the "you know I aint queer...." The way Ennis and Jack remain sitting together close, are enjoying their new bond, but hardly have words for it.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 15, 2006, 11:28:09 am
Returning briefly to the topic of the "evaporated milk and honey" ad on the newspaper where Alma hides Jack's postcard (when she comes in with the grocery bag)...  It just occured to me that when Ennis goes to pick up the supplies from the Basque on Brokeback he complains that they didn't get "the powdered milk and the spuds..."  So, the evaporated milk idea makes two appearances in the film.  I like that both times the idea of "groceries" is involved.  The version of "groceries" on the mountain is certainly different than in Riverton.  hmmm.... 
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 16, 2006, 06:40:55 pm
Amanda I also noticed that that circular was advertising Buddig Meats. Ennis called Jack "bud."

Here's another thing I just noticed. At the very beginning, Jack starts to walk over toward Ennis outside the trailer but stops. He has his hands on his hips, fingers spread apart. Ennis has his hands and arms in a similar position, but with his hands inside his pockets. Typical for those two guys.  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 18, 2006, 01:03:26 pm
Another one. Alma Jr. tugging on Alma Sr.'s arm and saying intensely, "Mama, I need crayons" just when Alma and Ennis are having a stare-down in the grocery store.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 18, 2006, 10:01:44 pm
I know, the crayon detail is adorable!  It's just the random kind of thing a kid would say too.  A very nice touch of realism.  But, I also love that she doesn't "want" crayons... she "needs" crayons.  That cracks me up.
 :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 19, 2006, 10:03:57 am
Doesn't she have intensely blue eyes in that scene, just like Jack??
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 19, 2006, 09:29:34 pm
Doesn't she have intensely blue eyes in that scene, just like Jack??

Why, yes, I believe she does.

Thinking of the grocery scene... It's interesting to see how a easily Ennis is able to make his way through the aisles (and even politely skirting the guy shopping with a basket in his arms).  This is a great moment to contrast his little evasion of Alma's later suggestion about the electric company job.  The "clumsy as I am remark" seems to be contradicted in many scenes in the movie... this being a key one I'd think.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on July 20, 2006, 01:41:23 am
The "clumsy as I am remark" seems to be contradicted in many scenes in the movie... this being a key one I'd think.

I've thought that too.  If we HAVE to name favorite lovable details, mine ain't very subtle - it's probably the moment on the stairs when they pull apart from the kiss and Ennis is heaving and looking around.  ThierryHenryPie once said that it seems like his shirt should have somehow been inside out at that point after the kissing.  I love that.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 20, 2006, 09:46:32 am
LOL!  Yes all sorts of little details about the reunion are way up there on my list of favorite details.  About Ennis's shirt here... I love, love, love that as Jack is tugging on it one of Ennis's buttons pops open.  It took me something like 20 viewings before I even noticed it.  So, apparently, not only did Ennis have to do a lot of shirt-tucking and looking around before heading back upstairs... he must also have had to re-button that button because it appears to be buttoned when he enters the apartment.  And, by the way... I'll mention this again... I love that he wipes his mouth as he enters the apartment door.  The final touch in putting himself back together before talking to Alma.

 :-*
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on July 20, 2006, 10:28:20 am
Its the hands.....jack's hands on Ennis's face, as they kiss.....long fingers....beautiful hands.........
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 20, 2006, 03:21:33 pm
They both have beautiful hands, don't they Katie! And I like the hands on the face or back of head or neck, so different than the way men and women kiss, with men just using the kiss as an excuse to get at the woman's body!!

Is it hot in here? Oh, yes, what I originally came here to talk about are the little things on Jack's dresser that we see when Ennis goes into his closet. There's a little covered wagon and a pair of bronzed baby shoes. They are so touching and those things actually remind me of Ennis. The covered wagon because four-footed animals and four-wheeled vehicles that crawl upon the earth always remind me of Ennis, and the shoes for the same reason--rooted to the earth. There is one other thing on the bureau but I can't remember what it is. Can anybody help me out?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 20, 2006, 03:29:38 pm
They both have beautiful hands, don't they Katie! And I like the hands on the face or back of head or neck, so different than the way men and women kiss, with men just using the kiss as an excuse to get at the woman's body!!

Is it hot in here? Oh, yes, what I originally came here to talk about are the little things on Jack's dresser that we see when Ennis goes into his closet. There's a little covered wagon and a pair of bronzed baby shoes. They are so touching and those things actually remind me of Ennis. The covered wagon because four-footed animals and four-wheeled vehicles that crawl upon the earth always remind me of Ennis, and the shoes for the same reason--rooted to the earth. There is one other thing on the bureau but I can't remember what it is. Can anybody help me out?
The stop clock, at a quarter to nine.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 20, 2006, 06:07:35 pm
Interesting--thank you!! That would mean that the two hands of the clock are almost together. Sad and fitting.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on July 20, 2006, 06:23:08 pm
I love, love, love that as Jack is tugging on it one of Ennis's buttons pops open.

For real??  I can't wait to go see that.  Nice to know I don't really have the whole thing memorized.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 20, 2006, 09:54:17 pm
For real??  I can't wait to go see that.  Nice to know I don't really have the whole thing memorized.


Yes, absolutely for real!  I just watched the movie (yay!) and came directly to the computer.  As is often my habit.  Anyway, and I was focusing on that button during the reunion.  I highly recommend watching for that button.  Adorable.  I wonder if the button action was a "happy accident" that the filmmakers rejoiced over.

Here's my favorite detail for the evening (buttons aside)... the wink that Ennis gives Jack during the prayer of thanks camping trip.  He does this right after Jack asks "for what?"  and Ennis gives the teasing answer about forgetting the harmonica.  It's a nice little bit of affection for Jack... sort of like a tiny, tiny declaration of what Ennis really means.  Jack's big smile after this is wonderful.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on July 20, 2006, 10:35:30 pm


Here's my favorite detail for the evening (buttons aside)... the wink that Ennis gives Jack during the prayer of thanks camping trip.  He does this right after Jack asks "for what?"  and Ennis gives the teasing answer about forgetting the harmonica.  It's a nice little bit of affection for Jack... sort of like a tiny, tiny declaration of what Ennis really means.  Jack's big smile after this is wonderful.



Yes that wink,...oh that wink....is beautiful.....shows affection....shows how comfortable he is with Jack...shows a sense of humour....shows rememberance of a past happening between the two of them....shows he loves being in that place in that time with that man......
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 20, 2006, 10:58:51 pm
Yes that wink,...oh that wink....is beautiful.....shows affection....shows how comfortable he is with Jack...shows a sense of humour....shows rememberance of a past happening between the two of them....shows he loves being in that place in that time with that man......
Almost looks like Jack returns the wink. He most definitly aknowleges it.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on July 21, 2006, 03:38:10 am
I just saw the button - how did I miss that?  I've always been tuned in to Jack's hand on Ennis's shirt there, and Ennis's yummy neck exposed.

What you alll are calling the wink - I see that differently.  I see it as a facial tic, that a big smile like that is so rare on Ennis's face, that it's like a spasm of rustiness, his muscles are so unused to that position.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 21, 2006, 10:31:19 am
I just saw the button - how did I miss that?  I've always been tuned in to Jack's hand on Ennis's shirt there, and Ennis's yummy neck exposed.

What you alll are calling the wink - I see that differently.  I see it as a facial tic, that a big smile like that is so rare on Ennis's face, that it's like a spasm of rustiness, his muscles are so unused to that position.
I can buy the facia tic. there is also one when Ennis and jack are asleep in the final tent scene.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 21, 2006, 08:09:54 pm
I thought the wink was a tic at first too.  But, here's my advice.  Sit really close to the screen and you'll see that it really does seem like a deliberate wink.  When you're close enough you can see how exaggerated the wink is.  And, I do think Jack acknowleges it... with that smile he can't contain even as he's trying to get serious and starts picking on his beer bottle. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 27, 2006, 11:34:55 am
I love the way Jack opens up the bottle of whiskey and pours a generous shot into Ennis's tin cup before helping himself. And the way Ennis says "thank you" as if he were at Sunday dinner at his grandma's house.  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on July 27, 2006, 11:52:35 am
I love the way they go from using cups to just sharing the same bottle before they start having sex. We see the blue cups again while Ennis and Jack are camping, but I don't think we ever see them drinking from them.

(Not even coffee.)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sheriff Roland on July 27, 2006, 12:03:44 pm
I've been wondering where to post this - guess it is a lovable subtle detail (after all, it only took me some 40 viewings before I noticed it) - well here goes...

In the "Friend, that's more words you spoke in two weeks" scene, Heath/Ennis uses a speech style that is Sooo jaring that I never accepted it in my mind - I would aparently always change it to the subjective pronoun "I"

The quote ...

...Then he got married. And no more room for me. That's how come me end up here.

It took me the english subtitles (which I rarely use) to catch this unusual phrasing [I think he's simply repeating the same pronoun that he had used in the previous sentence], that helps project Ennis' lack of formal education. Anyone else never notice this detail?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on July 27, 2006, 12:17:08 pm
The quote ...

...Then he got married. And no more room for me. That's how come me end up here.

It took me the english subtitles (which I rarely use) to catch this unusual phrasing [I think he's simply repeating the same pronoun that he had used in the previous sentence], that helps project Ennis' lack of formal education. Anyone else never notice this detail?

I first saw that quote in writing, actually, in the text of an Adapted Screenplay "For Your Consideration" ad back before the movie was released. And I thought it was odd phrasing (and odd for an adapted screenplay ad), because it didn't read very naturally to me. (It just isn't one of the common grammatical errors that I hear a lot, not in quite that way.) It sounds fine when Heath says it, for some reason. (Maybe because the dynamic between Ennis and Jack is just so wonderful in that entire scene that I can't nitpick the dialogue.)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 27, 2006, 12:32:13 pm
The word "come" seems to trip him up sometimes. How come me end up here...If I should come to know them.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on July 27, 2006, 12:35:08 pm
The word "come" seems to trip him up sometimes. How come me end up here...If I should come to know them.

It's the innuendo that gets to him, every time.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 27, 2006, 12:38:28 pm
Ever notice the Way Ennis walks , his srtance, into the tent the 2nd night is exactly the same as went he goes to the kitchen to get a beer while waiting for Jack after 4 years.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on July 27, 2006, 12:39:37 pm
...Then he got married. And no more room for me. That's how come me end up here.

[I think he's simply repeating the same pronoun that he had used in the previous sentence], that helps project Ennis' lack of formal education. Anyone else never notice this detail?

Yeah, I couldn't even figure out what he was saying for a while because it made so little sense. And even after I did, I still found it jarring. It don't sound right to me -- even someone with bad grammar wouldn't say that. But I just try to ignore it, the way I try to ignore Heath's Aussie accent in the grocery store scene.

Another one that I've always found a tiny bit jarring -- although less so -- is "I doubt there's nothin we can do." I'm fine with double negatives, but that one just seems a little too convoluted. But if I hesitate to criticize the "more than you've spoke" scene, I'm CERTAINLY not going to start in on the Motel Siesta scene.

Besides, this is supposed to be lovable details, not slightly jarring ones.  :)

Oh, this just in:

It's the innuendo that gets to him, every time.

 :laugh:

But while we're on the subject -- and then I PROMISE to drop it -- what bothers me about "if I should come to know them" is that he pronounces it them instead of 'em.

I guess I'd better move these over to the "tent don't look right" thread.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 28, 2006, 11:31:33 am
LOL!  Yes all sorts of little details about the reunion are way up there on my list of favorite details.  About Ennis's shirt here... I love, love, love that as Jack is tugging on it one of Ennis's buttons pops open.  It took me something like 20 viewings before I even noticed it.  So, apparently, not only did Ennis have to do a lot of shirt-tucking and looking around before heading back upstairs... he must also have had to re-button that button because it appears to be buttoned when he enters the apartment.  And, by the way... I'll mention this again... I love that he wipes his mouth as he enters the apartment door.  The final touch in putting himself back together before talking to Alma.

 :-*
It also magically becomes rebuttoned when the camera angle changes.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 31, 2006, 11:39:08 am
jp...you pointed out Ennis's stance on the way to TS2, also on the way to getting a beer while waiting for Jack, and I have another one to add. When Cassie drags him away from Alma Jr. and toward the dance floor, he has the same tail-between-the-legs stance. It's sort of like a junkyard dog lookin for love... ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 31, 2006, 04:11:24 pm
Another subtle detail that I always listen for is the sound, like WHUMP! or WALLOP! that ensues when the two men come together in embrace, such as during the reunion and post-divorce scenes.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 31, 2006, 10:50:58 pm
Another subtle detail that I always listen for is the sound, like WHUMP! or WALLOP! that ensues when the two men come together in embrace, such as during the reunion and post-divorce scenes.

Yup, and also the way the sound of their boots seems really amplified on the steps during the reunion kiss.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: adrian on August 01, 2006, 04:34:53 am

When Jack meets Alma, right after the reunion kiss, I love the way Jacks hat appears to swallow his head, as Jack somewhat disappears from view.  And then to see his big eyes slowly make its way out from under the brim!  He is so nervous, that to see someone so gregarious and brave to wish he was invisible.... is adorable.

adrian
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: David on August 01, 2006, 08:37:59 am
and you have to love how giddy and excited Ennis is when introducing Jack to Alma.   It is one of the few times you see Ennis with a big smile on his face.

I am so torn emotionally in that scene.    I am so happy for Ennis that his man is there, but I just cry for Alma too.  She has just discovered that her life will forever change.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: adrian on August 01, 2006, 04:25:52 pm
and also the little sense of joy or surprise when Ennis hears that Jack has a son.   I think secretly, Ennis was hoping for a boy himself, and was sincerely happy that Jack has one.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: moremojo on August 02, 2006, 03:48:20 pm
and also the little sense of joy or surprise when Ennis hears that Jack has a son.   I think secretly, Ennis was hoping for a boy himself, and was sincerely happy that Jack has one.
This is one of my favorite moments in the film, and it is also one of the happiest. I think you may be right about Ennis's desire for a son of his own--in the short story, he tells Jack that he always thought he'd have a boy, but ended up with only girls. He clearly loves his daughters "to bits" (says so in the story), but I get the sense that a son would have provided another avenue for male bonding, something that I believe Ennis desires, both sexually/romantically (via Jack) and emotionally/amicably (through the son he never had, and perhaps with the father that he lost and the brother from whom he seems estranged).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on August 02, 2006, 03:52:32 pm
So true, Scott.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2006, 05:11:17 pm
I get the sense that a son would have provided another avenue for male bonding, something that I believe Ennis desires, both sexually/romantically (via Jack) and emotionally/amicably (through the son he never had, and perhaps with the father that he lost and the brother from whom he seems estranged).

Maybe. But men who have difficult relationships with their own fathers sometimes have trouble in relationships with their sons. For example, what would Ennis teach his son about homosexuality? Obviously he wouldn't do what his own dad did, and maybe he wouldn't bring it up at all. But given that it's a huge issue in Ennis' life, and that it became an issue because of what his father taught him, this might produce complications.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on August 08, 2006, 05:24:30 pm
"That's how come me end up here."
"I doubt there's nothin we can do."
 
I love these patterns, they feel the same wonderful way to me as seing Ennis's shirts fit him so beautifully, or Jack's eyebrows flicker.  They are just right.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: adrian on August 09, 2006, 06:27:45 am

I also love the way Ennis reads the very first post card from Jack ("Hey Ennis, you know a guy name a Jack?").  The way his lips can be seen reading every word, not wanting to miss a drop.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on August 09, 2006, 10:51:35 pm
Ennis's face flick asking for reassurance from Alma Jr. after telling her she can't live with him.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 10, 2006, 08:38:32 pm
I love (well... it's at least a very smart detail... if not lovable exactly) that there are photos of Jack and Lureen visible in some of the Texas locales.  I think there's a picture of them together at least during the scene following Bobby's birth.  This just emphasizes how sad it is that Jack and Ennis don't have photos of each other... or together.  It seems to emphasize how invisible their love was to society.
 :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on August 10, 2006, 08:43:51 pm
I love (well... it's at least a very smart detail... if not lovable exactly) that there are photos of Jack and Lureen visible in some of the Texas locales.  I think there's a picture of them together at least during the scene following Bobby's birth.  This just emphasizes how sad it is that Jack and Ennis don't have photos of each other... or together.  It seems to emphasize how invisible their love was to society.
 :'(
I often thought that Jack's mother would have given Ennis a picture if Jack. But since he didn't garduate high school, the may not have had a school picture of him older than a boy and the only others would be with  Lureen and Bobby.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on August 11, 2006, 01:04:04 pm
//OT//

This is a BBM confession prompted by the above posts about photos, sorry it is OT but I'm sure it will do me good to get it off my chest: I have several soppy fantasy versions of what happens to Ennis after the end of the story & in one, he gets a package from Lureen with a couple of photos of Jack but also photos of him (Ennis) taken by Jack on one of their trips when he smuggled a camera along (he couldn't let Ennis know as Ennis would have smashed it up).  And there is even one of them both together when Ennis was sleeping and Jack managed to set up a timer.  Aaahhhh...Not sure if it would make Ennis feel better but I like the idea, as evidenced by going to the trouble of inventing a convoluted story to engineer it.  I really do question my sanity some days   :laugh:

//normal thread may now resume//
Title: Fanfic in the making?
Post by: moremojo on August 11, 2006, 01:18:02 pm
//OT//

This is a BBM confession prompted by the above posts about photos, sorry it is OT but I'm sure it will do me good to get it off my chest: I have several soppy fantasy versions of what happens to Ennis after the end of the story & in one, he gets a package from Lureen with a couple of photos of Jack but also photos of him (Ennis) taken by Jack on one of their trips when he smuggled a camera along (he couldn't let Ennis know as Ennis would have smashed it up).  And there is even one of them both together when Ennis was sleeping and Jack managed to set up a timer.  Aaahhhh...Not sure if it would make Ennis feel better but I like the idea, as evidenced by going to the trouble of inventing a convoluted story to engineer it.  I really do question my sanity some days   :laugh:

//normal thread may now resume//
Hey, nic:

That's a great idea for a fanfic, if you ever felt inclined to pursue it. It could be one way among many "to finish the story" in your own life.

 :)
Scott
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on August 11, 2006, 03:56:35 pm
//OT//

This is a BBM confession prompted by the above posts about photos, sorry it is OT but I'm sure it will do me good to get it off my chest: I have several soppy fantasy versions of what happens to Ennis after the end of the story & in one, he gets a package from Lureen with a couple of photos of Jack but also photos of him (Ennis) taken by Jack on one of their trips when he smuggled a camera along (he couldn't let Ennis know as Ennis would have smashed it up).  And there is even one of them both together when Ennis was sleeping and Jack managed to set up a timer.  Aaahhhh...Not sure if it would make Ennis feel better but I like the idea, as evidenced by going to the trouble of inventing a convoluted story to engineer it. 

Soppy? Maybe, but them I'm guilty if being soppy, too. I too wish so hard for Ennis to have some pictures of Jack  :'(
And I like your idea of Lureen sending Ennis a package with pics.

Quote
I really do question my sanity some days   
Don't we all?  :laugh:
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on August 11, 2006, 05:10:21 pm
And there is even one of them both together when Ennis was sleeping and Jack managed to set up a timer. 

Have Lureen send me a set of prints, Nic!  ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on November 26, 2006, 04:01:38 pm
Bump for new people...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on December 06, 2006, 12:30:21 pm
bump
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 05, 2007, 10:42:02 pm
Bump
 :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: isabelle on January 29, 2007, 06:06:52 am
Hi everyone!

I haven't waded through the WHOLE thread, so forgive me if I make a reapeat here, but here goes (and by the way, today is my 1st BBM anniversary. Sunday, January 29th 2006 was the day my life started being deeply shaken...).
So after 12 or 13 viewings, I have just noticed that as Ennis leaves "on one of his little trips", after Alma says "Forgettin' something?" and Ennis has gone, she stares blankly and 2 male voices on the radio say:

A: "Why did you do that?"
B: "Well, what can I say?"

I thought this was just spot on!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 29, 2007, 06:32:58 am
That is a good one! Those radio guys are like a Greek chorus!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on January 29, 2007, 02:20:19 pm
Hi everyone!

I haven't waded throught the WHOLE thread, so forgive me if I make a reapeat here, but here goes (and by the way, today is my 1st BBM anniversary. Sunday, January 29th 2006 was the day my life started being deeply shaken...).
So after 12 or 13 viewings, I have just noticed that as Ennis leaves "on one of his little trips", after Alma says "Forgettin' something?" and Ennis has gone, she stares blankly and 2 male voices on the radio say:

A: "Why did you do that?"
B: "Well, what can I say?"

I thought this was just spot on!


Wow, you are SO observant...er...with your ears  8). Yet another great excuse to watch it again and pick up on things I missed the other 46 times  ::). Man, what a rich film...

No idea why, but today I couldn't stop thinking about the look on Ennis's face when Jack yaks on about the sheep killed by lightening. I've always loved and been intrigued by that look - at first I thought it was maybe just a reaction to the imagined 'smell' of the sheep, or Jack's use of the word 'asphixiate' (no idea how to spell it properly), but recently I've wondered if it's also a look of confusion, fear, and fascination with the very fact that Jack is speaking to him so easily, spinning him a yarn as if they were old buddies. Maybe this is the first time anyone's talked to Ennis in this way? I get the impression that Ennis's family weren't a talkative bunch.

What do y'all think?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Scott6373 on January 29, 2007, 02:25:55 pm
Try this one on for size.  I noticed this quite out of the blue.  When Jack is laying on the ground playing the harmonica...I could swear he's playing "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Granted his playing is bad, but the melodic attempts follow the line of that song.  Now I'm not sure when Dylan released that song.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on January 29, 2007, 02:37:44 pm
Try this one on for size.  I noticed this quite out of the blue.  When Jack is laying on the ground playing the harmonica...I could swear he's playing "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Granted his playing is bad, but the melodic attempts follow the line of that song.  Now I'm not sure when Dylan released that song.

You're right, Scott. But I only heard that after listening to the BBM soundtrack (Jake 'performance' is on it). I have no idea when Dylan released that song, but if I remember correctly, 'The Devil's Right Hand's release was not in line with the timing of the film either. Maybe they didn't really care much about that.

Jake was so adorable playing that harmonica... :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on January 29, 2007, 02:41:28 pm
I couldn't stop thinking about the look on Ennis's face when Jack yaks on about the sheep killed by lightening. I've always loved and been intrigued by that look - at first I thought it was maybe just a reaction to the imagined 'smell' of the sheep, or Jack's use of the word 'asphixiate' (no idea how to spell it properly), but recently I've wondered if it's also a look of confusion, fear, and fascination with the very fact that Jack is speaking to him so easily, spinning him a yarn as if they were old buddies.

I've always seen it as a little bit of all of these, particularly the first and third. Heath's acting is so good he can convey two completely different reactions in one facial expression. He seems amazed that someone is interested in having this kind of friendly conversation with him.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on January 29, 2007, 02:49:58 pm
Try this one on for size.  I noticed this quite out of the blue.  When Jack is laying the ground playing the harmonica...I could swear he's playing "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Granted his playing is bad, but the melodic attempts follow the line of that song.  Now I'm not sure when Dylan released that song.

You're not alone with this POV. Ruthlessly, I and others discussed exactly this a while ago. He said, both times Jack plays the harmonica (setting the second camp and after they untangled them Chilean sheep from theirs) he plays "He Was a Friend of Mine". I agree that both times he plays the same song. But to this day I can't hear any similarity between what Jack plays and said song  :-\.

Ruthlessly's theory went on that every singing/humming/playing music in the movie (not the soundtrack) was a foreshadowing of Jack's death. E.g. Ennis humming Streets of Laredo (Cowboy's lament), Water Walking Jesus and this one.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 29, 2007, 02:51:03 pm
Try this one on for size.  I noticed this quite out of the blue.  When Jack is laying on the ground playing the harmonica...I could swear he's playing "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Granted his playing is bad, but the melodic attempts follow the line of that song.  Now I'm not sure when Dylan released that song.

According to this site, http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/ (http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/), it wasn't released until 1991 in The Bootleg Series.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Scott6373 on January 29, 2007, 02:52:44 pm
According to this site, http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/ (http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/), it wasn't released until 1991 in The Bootleg Series.



OK that's a heck of a lot of chronological license.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on January 29, 2007, 03:09:23 pm
Has this one been discussed: Alma goes thru the mail and discovers the postcard from Jack, she puts it back in the mail and lays it face down and you see a advertisement featuring something to do with Carl Buddig and one for "Honey" and then you hear Jack's voice: "Honey, you seen my blue parka?".
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: moremojo on January 29, 2007, 05:47:12 pm
OK that's a heck of a lot of chronological license.
The anachronism might seem less glaring if we credit the report that Dylan didn't actually write the song, but rather transcribed it and recorded it. I believe the lyrics (and tune?) are anonymous, and might date as far back as the 1930s; FRiend Lee, do you know any more particulars about this?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on January 29, 2007, 06:02:55 pm
There's more info on The Bootleg Series here: http://www.bobdylan.com/linernotes/bootleg.html (http://www.bobdylan.com/linernotes/bootleg.html) . "He Was a Friend of Mine" is listed as being recorded in 1961 and copyrighted in 1962, and is listed as "traditional song adapted and arranged by Bob Dylan." So... ok, it existed in the early 60's. I doubt that Jack Twist would have had Bob Dylan bootleg recordings hiding under the seat of his old truck, but maybe he could have heard the "traditional" song? I dunno.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 29, 2007, 06:30:16 pm
The anachronism might seem less glaring if we credit the report that Dylan didn't actually write the song, but rather transcribed it and recorded it. I believe the lyrics (and tune?) are anonymous, and might date as far back as the 1930s; FRiend Lee, do you know any more particulars about this?

I don't recall the actual artist and date, but there are several versions dating all the way back to the 1930s.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on January 29, 2007, 06:50:24 pm
I dug around on the net and found out that the Grateful Dead used to play a version of it in the 70's. *dons tie-dye and does her best too-young pseudo-hippy-chick twirl* *is clearly a poseur because she doesn't have a single Dead tape that includes the song*

I found this discussion linked from a Deadhead discussion. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=97248 (http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=97248)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on January 30, 2007, 08:58:30 am
I've always seen it as a little bit of all of these, particularly the first and third. Heath's acting is so good he can convey two completely different reactions in one facial expression. He seems amazed that someone is interested in having this kind of friendly conversation with him.


I always feel very moved by that look, and by the thought that this is the first time he's experienced this.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on January 30, 2007, 11:36:16 am
I always feel very moved by that look, and by the thought that this is the first time he's experienced this.

Me too. When people are assessing Heath's performance, they should think not just about the big dramatic scenes but also about tiny moments like this. Somehow, very subtly, he conveys what this conversation means to Ennis without ever doing anything overt or obvious to telegraph it. For instance, some actors (and some directors) would show that this is a novel experience for Ennis by have Ennis gaze at Jack with amazement and admiration. Here, we most understand how Ennis is feeling when he's NOT looking at Jack, like at this moment or when he fumbles for a cigarette.

BTW, I remember once we were discussing what facial expressions from BBM we found ourselves adapting, and someone mentioned this one. I was pretty impressed; it's a hard one to duplicate.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 30, 2007, 12:54:22 pm
BTW, I remember once we were discussing what facial expressions from BBM we found ourselves adapting, and someone mentioned this one. I was pretty impressed; it's a hard one to duplicate.

I love this idea!! Where is that topic!! What immediately comes to mind is Jack's expression as Ennis is telling his life story and Ennis's subsequent face as he says "What?"

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: EDelMar on January 30, 2007, 02:09:33 pm
So... ok, it existed in the early 60's. I doubt that Jack Twist would have had Bob Dylan bootleg recordings hiding under the seat of his old truck, but maybe he could have heard the "traditional" song? I dunno.

You are all digging too far.  The studio just plopped it in there.

When they had that damn movie camera hooked up to my truck that day I was ridin' with Alma Junior, they dubbed in "I'll Be Gone" on the truck radio.  First off, the radio don't work.  Second, Fred Peterson wrote and recorded it just a couple years ago, not back in the 70s and 80s.  And third, it belongs to a studio music licensing firm so is not available anywhere nor would it have played on the radio for sure.  :)

  -Ennis
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 30, 2007, 02:14:29 pm
Uh, Ennis, we were talkin about what Jack was trying to play on his harmonica..."He Was a Friend of Mine." But how did he know that song, hunh? (sorry for stealing your line)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on January 30, 2007, 02:19:34 pm
I love this idea!! Where is that topic!! What immediately comes to mind is Jack's expression as Ennis is telling his life story and Ennis's subsequent face as he says "What?"

Your wish is my command, Lee. I found the thread, moved it to the Open Forum and bumped it. It's so ancient the computer tried to talk me out of bumping it (the last post was from April), but it's still a good topic!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: EDelMar on January 30, 2007, 02:39:53 pm
Jack's harmonica, both times he plays, is positively a variant of "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Gustavo Santaolalla is the actual player, and using his own harmonica, in a recording studio.  (The "amateur" sound he's mimicking is actually quite hard to duplicate... but gives the flavor of someone not very good at playing harmonica.)

Open up the first harmonica sound bit (campfire scene).  It has 4 sections.  Here are the corresponding lyrics to those sections:
#1:  Heeeeeeee was a friend of miiiiiiiine.  He--- [cuts off here]
#2:  Heeeee--
#3:  Was a friend of mine.
#4:  [He] just kept on movin',

On the 2nd harmonica piece as they're going up the hill.  It has 5 sections back to back.
#1:  Heeee was a friend of miiiiiiiine.
#2:  [He] just kept on movin',
#3:  Heeee waas a frieeeend  (bad key...improvised)
#4:  Was a frieeeeend    (again bad key...improvised)
#5:  Was a friend of mine.

It's a contortion of the song really...again deliberately warped and twisted.  :)

"He Was a Friend of Mine" as we know it today is the collaborative work of 3 artists circa 1960: Bob Dylan, David Van Ronk and Eric von Schmidt.  Dylan once said he got it from Blind Arvella Gray, a street musician in Chicago, but that's probably not true.  WELL, he might have heard "Shorty George" being played by this musician.  (See below).  David Van Ronk stated at a concert once (right before playing the song), "I learned this song from Eric von Schmidt, who learned it from Dylan, who learned it from me".  Around 1980 the 3 artists mutually decided to split royalty monies for the song.

Dylan recorded his version (upon which the Willie Nelson version was based) in 1961.

The ORIGINAL version is Shorty George, a southeastern US african spiritual or something written by Smith Casey.  I have this recording; it's not readily available, and was recorded in 1939 for the US Library of Congress.

If you want to hear all 3 versions, come to Brokeback BBQ 2007 (http://www.brokeback2007.com) and I will have them there along with a large portion of the rest of the master soundtrack and early versions of stuff.

In the late 1960s the Grateful Dead played a song called "He Was A Friend of Mine" as well.  Different lyrics, and that was really just a PORTION of another song, by Mark Spolestra from 1965, "Just a Hand to Hold".  THIS SONG undoubtedly was inspired by "He Was a Friend of Mine" by Dylan/Van Ronk/von Schmidt because 1 year after Dylan recorded his version, Spolestra performed with him AND Van Ronk in New York City frequently.

  -Ennis

PS: Ossana and MacMurtry originally scheduled Jack's 2 harmonica pieces to be "Kaw-Liga" and "Bad Brahma Bull".  I have those too; come to the BBQ!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Scott6373 on January 30, 2007, 03:06:15 pm
Jack's harmonica, both times he plays, is positively a variant of "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Gustavo Santaolalla is the actual player, and using his own harmonica, in a recording studio.  (The "amateur" sound he's mimicking is actually quite hard to duplicate... but gives the flavor of someone not very good at playing harmonica.)


Holy crap...thanks E...I thought it was such a little thing I heard...who knew...LOL
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 31, 2007, 12:24:06 am
FRiend, that's the most you've spoke in two weeks.  :)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on January 31, 2007, 06:20:07 am
Wow - that is really interesting.  Another new thing that has stunned me from this whole experience after ~ a year!  And that is subtle.  It is so great to be able to share this.   :) And that has got to be one of the most subtle details.

My fave lovable detail from the film is not so subtle but I love the lean back that Ennis does so he can get a better view of Jack going up the mountain.  Such an inscrutable expression on his face.   I also like the fact that Ennis calls out to Jack about the horse's low startle point - cos I wouldn't have expected to hear a peep out of him so soon given his near silence up til that point. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: saucycobblers on January 31, 2007, 09:22:59 am
My fave lovable detail from the film is not so subtle but I love the lean back that Ennis does so he can get a better view of Jack going up the mountain.  Such an inscrutable expression on his face.   I also like the fact that Ennis calls out to Jack about the horse's low startle point - cos I wouldn't have expected to hear a peep out of him so soon given his near silence up til that point. 

Yeah, you're right, though I'd never tought of it that way before. I think that Ennis has been slightly overawed by Jack's obvious presence and skill socially since their first meeting, but this is Jack's first sign of 'weakness', so to speak, in struggling to control the horse. At last Ennis has a chance to assert himself by displaying his skill & knowledge with horses.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 31, 2007, 10:32:36 am
I love the lean back too, nic. And it's clear to me that he's doin it so he can see from under his hat brim. Which is not a little thing, because the first thing he did when he saw Jack for the first time was lower his hat brim.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 21, 2007, 10:32:30 pm
I'm sure this has been mentioned many times before... but I love how that one jacket's arm keeps swinging in Jack's closet when Ennis bends down to look at the boots and then looks up to discover the shirts.  It's like that jacket is nudging Ennis on to find those shirts.
 :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 22, 2007, 12:17:06 am
No, I don't think that's ever been mentioned! Is that the "coat of many colors" that does that?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 22, 2007, 12:21:34 am
"coat of many colors"

Hey partner,  I'm ashamed to say that I'm not familiar with this Brokieism  :o.  I don't quite remember the color of the jacket... it might even have been a shirt.  And, this particular detail that I mentioned is truly subtle.  It only swings back and forth very gently.  You can look out for this detail during the big fancy screening in Michigan!  :D  Oooo, it would be so fun to see BBM on the big screen again!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 22, 2007, 12:33:11 am
Yes, I am looking forward to it so much. What I mean by the coat of many colors is the green plaid jacket that is hanging in the closet. It is fairly colorful and so some people have likened it to Joseph's coat of many colors. You know Joseph, the biblical Joseph of the "technicolor dreamcoat. (an excellent opera/musical by the way, by Andrew Lloyd Webber, one of his first).

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 18, 2007, 05:36:52 pm
So Lee, any "new" subtle details to report following Bay City?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 18, 2007, 06:14:29 pm
yes, many. I've been thinking about Jack's harmonica after seeing the movie lately...and how Ennis always says the opposite of what he means. He says, "You'll run the sheep off agin if you don't quiet down" when Jack's harmonica playing is reassurring to both the sheep AND Ennis. And then when Ennis says, "I'm sendin up a prayer of thanks...for you not bringing that harmonica!" what he means is that he is thankful to have Jack's song back in his heart!

Watching the movie in Bay City, I was amazed at how many times Jack appears with a bucket, or a bag, or a canvas water bag in the frame with him. I also thought it was pretty lovable how the horses were nuzzling each other in the background when the boys were in the foreground!! These were only a few of the things I noticed. In general, it is so overwhelming to see Brokeback Mountain on the big screen again! I am still recovering!

Now, in Colorado at the BBQ, we are going to be showing the high definition version that just came out! Yee-haw!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 24, 2007, 12:28:52 pm
I have been studying this topic today to mine reenactment material for our BBQ coming up in Colorado in May! I'd love to have pictures of these lovable subtle details to post!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 24, 2007, 11:39:46 pm
We usually discuss this in terms of the movie, but some of the most lovable things in the story are where Jack transforms himself into Ennis's beloved horses. There is the time when he was "trembling like a wrung out horse," when he was "hauled onto all fours," where he indulged in horseplay and horsing around, and when he was "kicking them to high heaven."
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on March 25, 2007, 02:03:59 pm
We usually discuss this in terms of the movie, but some of the most lovable things in the story are where Jack transforms himself into Ennis's beloved horses. There is the time when he was "trembling like a wrung out horse," when he was "hauled onto all fours," where he indulged in horseplay and horsing around, and when he was "kicking them to high heaven."

And when Ennis called him "Little darlin'"....  :)

((((Lee))))
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on March 25, 2007, 04:31:47 pm
And when Ennis called him "Little darlin'"....  :)

((((Lee))))

lil darlin was what first told me I had seen it two many times:I had just proposed, my now wife had said yes, the cowboys were throwin hats in the air and I whispered "lil darlin"

and 2 second later thought my god you have seen brokeback once too often. but it fit. god did it fit <sigh> And nope, wasn't planned....


Lee??? MIME????? we are going to have a MIMING CONTEST IN ESTES??????



o...

my....


god...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 25, 2007, 04:34:49 pm
mine, jack, I was mining the thread for reenactment ideas! Not mime!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on March 25, 2007, 11:46:23 pm
Oh.

never mind.

lol
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 28, 2007, 12:42:49 am
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Lee??? MIME????? we are going to have a MIMING CONTEST IN ESTES??????



o...

my....


god...

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


mine, jack, I was mining the thread for reenactment ideas! Not mime!


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


This is one of my favorite exchanges, perhaps ever, on BetterMost!  The idea of Brokeback Mime competitions is just too amazing for words. 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on March 28, 2007, 01:56:51 am
The idea of Brokeback Mime competitions is just too amazing for words. 

Actually, that sounds fun! Like charades, but in a broader sense -- not going word-by-word, yet not directly mimicking the story, either. For example, I imagine a Charlie Chaplin-like mime trying to repair some broken invisible gadget. Tries and tries, can't get it fixed. So finally he shrugs and walks away ...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on March 28, 2007, 02:46:36 am
Don't encourage FRLee, we may really end up MIMING Brokeback.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 29, 2007, 01:17:54 pm
Too late!! I've got it on the agenda!! I think our committee needs to practice!!  :laugh:


Don't worry, you can do your avatar and Mime sleeping on the job with a blue heeler at your side! Adam already volunteered beating on a shirt with a stick while wearing only boots (even though it is somewhat out of character!), and now, let's see, what shall we have the others do???


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: LauraGigs on March 29, 2007, 01:37:33 pm
Quote
I thought it was such a little thing I heard...

As Jack would say, "Ain't no little thing!"  Heehee.   8)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: EDelMar on March 29, 2007, 09:04:46 pm
Adam already volunteered beating on a shirt with a stick while wearing only boots

But only in Ten Sleep or Brokenback Creek or Spring Creek in the Big Horns.

 -Adam
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 29, 2007, 09:12:35 pm
But only in Ten Sleep or Brokenback Creek or Spring Creek in the Big Horns.

 -Adam

Deal!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on March 30, 2007, 01:09:57 am
I volunteer to bleach my hair blonder and blonder throughout the course of the weekend.  ;D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on March 30, 2007, 04:30:40 am
Too late!! I've got it on the agenda!! I think our committee needs to practice!!  :laugh:


Don't worry, you can do your avatar and Mime sleeping on the job with a blue heeler at your side! Adam already volunteered beating on a shirt with a stick while wearing only boots (even though it is somewhat out of character!), and now, let's see, what shall we have the others do???



I hesitate to nominate Monica for sitting at the table during the Childress Children's Dinnerinner, she would look lousy as a blonde roflmao
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 30, 2007, 10:41:55 am
I hesitate to nominate Monica for sitting at the table during the Childress Children's Dinnerinner, she would look lousy as a blonde roflmao

Monica is drafted for barrel racing duty!! Plus I think she could dispatch those suitors very handily in the bar scene as well as deliver a fine "Whaddya waitin for, cowboy? A matin call?"   ;D

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on March 30, 2007, 01:12:52 pm
Monica is drafted for barrel racing duty!! Plus I think she could dispatch those suitors very handily in the bar scene as well as deliver a fine "Whaddya waitin for, cowboy? A matin call?"   ;D


now that's good...or cassie
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 30, 2007, 01:25:37 pm
I see LauraGigs as Cassie!!

For my part, I have experience as:

Chilean sheepherder, Aguirre, Alma, Lureen, and the Clear Slick!!

Take your pick!!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on March 30, 2007, 04:15:31 pm
I see LauraGigs as Cassie!!

For my part, I have experience as:

Chilean sheepherder, Aguirre, Alma, Lureen, and the Clear Slick!!

Take your pick!!



You have experience as AGUIRRE?????

Thiis i got a hear....


lmaoooooo


I'll stick with your original offer of jack twist, and use it as an excuse to lose a lot a weight before estes lolol, find me a blue to lay down with.....
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 30, 2007, 05:44:17 pm
Yeah, that was pretty interesting the time I went from bein Alma in bed with Ennis during the flipover scene and then had to run over to Aguirre's trailer for the Ain't Got Nothin scene. I think I brought new meaning to that stem the rose line!!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on March 31, 2007, 10:08:20 am
How the hell do you be clear slick???
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 31, 2007, 01:47:10 pm
LOL, we are still talking about lovable subtle details, so we are still on topic!!

Being clear slick was easy. If I didn't show up, it was okay because CS is notoriously unpredictable.

But here's a time when I did show up...the other performers were so appealing and funny, it was not hard difficult playing that role!!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,2739.msg130380.html#msg130380 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,2739.msg130380.html#msg130380)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on April 01, 2007, 02:03:24 am
what the hell IS that thread, stream of consciousness brokeback roflmaoooo????
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 02, 2007, 06:40:49 pm
what the hell IS that thread, stream of consciousness brokeback roflmaoooo????
Yup!!

Especially the roflmaooo part.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: HerrKaiser on April 02, 2007, 07:04:07 pm
one lovable, subtle detail I've mentioned here and there over the months but get little follow up is the brief scene when Ennis and Jack meet at Aguirre's trailer.

When Jack arrives, he moves back and forth along the side of the pickup. At one point, after he clearly notices Ennis as a person of interest, he lowers his head to allow his hat to cover his eyes. For a split second, his lips move. I believe he is saying to himself either "Oh my God" or "Can't believe it".

anyone see this detail the same way? thanks!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 02, 2007, 07:37:01 pm
I noticed the coy hatbrim lowering (reciprocal hatbrim dipping to Ennis's first move?) but I never saw his lips moving until it was pointed out here. Just one of the many benefits of this forum! Thanks, Herr!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on April 02, 2007, 09:19:54 pm
one lovable, subtle detail I've mentioned here and there over the months but get little follow up is the brief scene when Ennis and Jack meet at Aguirre's trailer.

When Jack arrives, he moves back and forth along the side of the pickup. At one point, after he clearly notices Ennis as a person of interest, he lowers his head to allow his hat to cover his eyes. For a split second, his lips move. I believe he is saying to himself either "Oh my God" or "Can't believe it".

anyone see this detail the same way? thanks!

I asked someone who reads lips what he said. She said Jake says 2 distinct words:

'Holy Shit'
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on April 04, 2007, 09:33:23 am
^  Wow - gotta check that out myself!  But I don't have trouble believing that - I'd say something very similar if I laid eyes on either of those two, & then you'd have to pick me up off the floor ;D 

It made me think about Jack having a really strong reaction to Ennis at the get-go, then knowing he'd be working with him all summer & how he was going to handle it.  I'd be a nervous wreck.  I think Jack was a bit nervy to start with but soon realised that he needn't be cos nothing was going to be happening any time soon where Ennis was concerned  :P
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: RossInIllinois on April 04, 2007, 12:46:18 pm
^  Wow - gotta check that out myself!  But I don't have trouble believing that - I'd say something very similar if I laid eyes on either of those two, & then you'd have to pick me up off the floor ;D 

It made me think about Jack having a really strong reaction to Ennis at the get-go, then knowing he'd be working with him all summer & how he was going to handle it.  I'd be a nervous wreck.  I think Jack was a bit nervy to start with but soon realised that he needn't be cos nothing was going to be happening any time soon where Ennis was concerned  :P

He did in fact say "Holy Shit" under his breath but the dialogue was cut to add more subtlety to the scene.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: HerrKaiser on April 04, 2007, 12:53:34 pm
thanks, I had not seen any indication in the script that there was dialog at the segment, but for sure his lips were moving. One of the tiny details that few have noticed!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokebackjack on April 04, 2007, 01:41:44 pm
thanks, I had not seen any indication in the script that there was dialog at the segment, but for sure his lips were moving. One of the tiny details that few have noticed!

Hell, you and I noticed!!!

lol lol lol

and it was intriguing enough to ask a hearing impaired person what the hell he'd said, to me it looked like either godDAYUM or ShEEEIT.

But, lol lol lol ....it was Holy SHIT.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on April 28, 2007, 06:34:26 am
I just watched the movie AGAIN..............and i noticed something funny.........its in the beginning when Enns near the trailer and Aguire drives in like he is going to drive right into the trailer.....Ennis quickly moves out of the way....just one quick movement, but i thought it was funny.....and i could picture Ennis thinking...."holy shit"
"
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on April 28, 2007, 07:48:29 am
I just watched the movie AGAIN..............and i noticed something funny.........its in the beginning when Enns near the trailer and Aguire drives in like he is going to drive right into the trailer.....Ennis quickly moves out of the way....just one quick movement, but i thought it was funny.....and i could picture Ennis thinking...."holy shit"
"

Yes, I like this detail, too  :).
Another subtle detail follows shortly after: when Aguirre gets up the stairs and opens the door of the trailer, Ennis begins to step up the steps too, to follow Aguirre inside. But Aguirre just slams the door behind hisself, more or less directly in Ennis' face, without any notion to Ennis (or Jack) to follow him. So Ennis steps down again, unsure of what to do. He even shoots a brief glance in Jack's direction.
Why does Ennis glance towards Jack? Because he feels embarrassed and wants to know if the other guy has noticed? Or to see what Jack's doing, if he shows any intent to follow Aguirre without invitation on Aguirre's side?

Hm. I think it's the first, he's self-conscious because he has wrongly assumed Aguirre follows the usual rules of politeness.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on April 28, 2007, 06:06:20 pm
Yes Ennis backtracking down the steps after the door is slammed in his face, is something I too always notice.....the look he gives Jack is probably saying "whats with this guy Aguire?....what do i do now?"
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 29, 2007, 11:58:39 pm
The backtracking is a really interesting detail to discuss!  I don't recall that being analyzed much before.  I love the opening 10 minutes or so of the film.  Brilliant.

So, I almost decided to start a new thread about this, but figured it might work well in this thread instead...  It's about the fact that Jack and Ennis are smoking a joint the evening before TS3/ the night before the lake scene argument.  It occurs to me that (like many things in this scene) that joint is sort of ominous.  It seems like a bad sign that they would turn to a joint AND whiskey in order to relax during this late camping trip.  You would think that just being together would be enough to relax them.  The whiskey is their typical aphrodisiac, so that seems normal.  But, the addition of the joint just feels off in the context of their relationship.  I don't really know how to articulate this well.  Maybe that joint just symbolizes how stressed their relationship really is at this stage.
 :-\
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: LauraGigs on April 30, 2007, 01:02:29 am
Quote
It seems like a bad sign that they would turn to a joint AND whiskey in order to relax during this late camping trip.

From the way they handle it (Jack lights it & passes it to Ennis, who looks as if it may be his first hit ever) it appears to me that it's mainly Jack's crutch.  In other words, Jack is so stressed and world-worn at that point that he needs more than the usual intoxicant.

Quote
You would think that just being together would be enough to relax them.

Jack is so blatantly unhappy at that point. Being by the lake then with Ennis is no longer even a momentary cure.   :(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: LauraGigs on April 30, 2007, 01:07:38 am
. . . Which brings me to a detail I always wanted to point out:  when they are seen in their last intimate embrace that night, Jack's hand is out of the sleeping bag, reaching away from Ennis.

I never cared to get immersed in the "did he quit Ennis or not" debate.  But it seems that the more you read on this film, the less likely it is that any detail is insignificant.  The blocking of that motionless scene nudges me further toward the "quit" camp, sadly.  (Though Ennis would always be the love of his life. I think the proper phrase would be "give up on" rather than "quit".)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 30, 2007, 09:32:50 pm
. . . Which brings me to a detail I always wanted to point out:  when they are seen in their last intimate embrace that night, Jack's hand is out of the sleeping bag, reaching away from Ennis.

I never cared to get immersed in the "did he quit Ennis or not" debate.  But it seems that the more you read on this film, the less likely it is that any detail is insignificant.  The blocking of that motionless scene nudges me further toward the "quit" camp, sadly.  (Though Ennis would always be the love of his life. I think the proper phrase would be "give up on" rather than "quit".)

The position of Jack's had is a great detail to notice in TS3!  I'm sure the position of how a person sleeps can be taken as a sign of their state of mind (maybe unacknowledged even by the person when they're awake).  The fact that Jack's hand is doing the opposite thing from TS1 in combination with other things like the lack of moon and the discussion of snow (and the joint!) all add up to an uneasy feeling for sure.  People have focused a lot on the fact that Ennis is spooning Jack and has his arm comfortably over him (also the opposite of how he reacted to the initial moments of TS1)... and I think Ennis's position is often cited as a positive sign.  But, am I correct in thinking that his brow is a little furrowed?

While Jack's hand position definitely seems to be a negative sign... I still don't believe that he quit Ennis.  I just really don't.  I think he says he doesn't know how to quit Ennis.  Even if on some intellectual or rational level Jack had determined that leaving Ennis was the "right thing to do" for some reason...  I don't really believe he would have had the will-power or heart to go through with it.  I think Ennis would have been even less capable of leaving Jack.  For what it's worth.
 :-\ :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Casey Cornelius on April 30, 2007, 11:37:43 pm
I missed the equivalent of this thread on the IMDb board - thanks for starting it here, Amanda.

I haven't traipsed through all of the previous posts, so the following might be repeating something
someone else has said.
There's a wonderful, easily missed moment in the first scene just before Agurre opens the trailer door to snap the first spoken line in the film, "If you pair of deuces....scrawny asses in here, pronto."
Jack had been shaving before Aguirre drove up [discretely checking out Ennis in the side mirror] and had hurriedly wiped away the remnants of shaving cream off of his face as Aguirre's car barelled up and the latter had stormed into the trailer.
 As the two boys watch with baited breath to see if and when Aguirre will deign to come back out and call them in, the viewer can just barely discern Jack in a long shot from the rear nervously wiping his face again as Aguirre is seen walking back and forth in the trailer and Ennis has his back to Jack.  I like to think that Jack is furtively wiping his face again not for the sake of impressing Aguirre, but this time to make sure he looks his best for Ennis.
It's not mentioned in any of the versions of the three screenplays I have, so credit must be given to Ang Lee and Jake Gyllenhaal for this detail in a film with countless such subtle and meaningful touches.
Casey Cornelius
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 30, 2007, 11:56:02 pm
Hi Casey!

So great to see you throw your hat in the ring here!  Yes, the old thread back at IMDb was called Notice Anything So Subtle and it was much in the same spirit as this thread.  This is most definitely a "revival" thread that was part of the initial enthusiasm of finding a new home here at BetterMost but still missing some of the old comforts of the old board.  I wish I could remember who started Notice Anything So Subtle.  If anyone remembers!  I'd be really happy to know.

Anyway, I don't recall people discussing Jack's extra little gesture after shaving and prior to the meeting with Aguirre much before.  But, I know what you mean.  I think how a viewer interprets things like that dovetails with whether or not the viewer believes that Jack and Ennis were flirting from the very beginning.  I do... and Jack probably much more consciously than Ennis.

cheers
Amanda
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 01, 2007, 12:08:57 am
LOL, who here remembers that great old thread Explain the Horse Spinning Scene with Jack from IMDb? Talk about a detail oriented thread!   :laugh:
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Casey Cornelius on May 01, 2007, 12:17:22 am
HI Amanda,

I believe that the Notice Anything So Subtle thread's content has been reposted by an indefatiguable poster named
True Oracle of Phoenix.  Can't wade through the entire IMDb board right now to find it, but I'm sure a version of the original thread is still up there.

Casey
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nic on May 01, 2007, 05:59:30 am
It's funny how a film full of so many subtle details also packs a huge punch, enough to affect thousands of people profoundly.

After seeing BBM, I started to wonder if all films had this level of subtext that I'd missed.  I think it's safe to say that they clearly don't! It has given me an insight into the film-making process as well which is an added bonus. 

I'd better plug in a subtle detail here I guess. This maybe doesn't strictly qualify but I like the way the way Ennis removes Jack's hand when Jack is tending to his headwound after the bear incident (although I don't really like it that Ennis feels he has to do this of course). He doesn't just bat it away but handles his fingers in what actually appears quite an awkward way if you try to reproduce it.  I believe this is the first time they touch hands after their introduction, so fairly significant.   
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on May 01, 2007, 06:07:37 am

 As the two boys watch with baited breath to see if and when Aguirre will deign to come back out and call them in, the viewer can just barely discern Jack in a rear long shot nervously wiping his face again as Aguirre is seen walking back and forth in the trailer and Ennis has his back to Jack.  I like to think that Jack is furtively wiping his face again not for the sake of impressing Aguirre, but this time to make sure he looks his best for Ennis.

Hey Casey, good to see you here  :).
I never noticed the second wiping by Jack. Will look out for it the next time I see the movie.

Back to Jack's hand position in the last night in tent:

(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m47/Penthesilea06/LNIT-1.jpg?t=1178012427)

Well, when you sleep on your side like this, it seems the most natural thing to do with your hand for me. I don't read it as reaching away from Ennis.
But naturally this is debatable. You could even interpret Jack's hand as reaching towards Ennis's hand.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on May 01, 2007, 09:38:33 am
Somehow I've never been able to see that scene as anything but sweet, though I know it's also full of foreboding.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: TOoP/Bruce on May 02, 2007, 12:47:53 pm
HI Amanda,

I believe that the Notice Anything So Subtle thread's content has been reposted by an indefatiguable poster named
True Oracle of Phoenix.  Can't wade through the entire IMDb board right now to find it, but I'm sure a version of the original thread is still up there.

Casey

Casey,

This is a link to the original thread.  Oddly enough, the original is still around.  I never needed to repost it!

Notice anything so subtle in the film???I did...scene spoilers   --  by anml-lvr   

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/36287482 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/36287482)

"TOoP" / bjblakeslee

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Casey Cornelius on May 02, 2007, 11:51:52 pm
Hey bjblakeslee:

Grateful for the link.  Thanks...
From your comment should I gather that your moniker is True_Oracle-of_Phoenix
on the IMDb Brokeback Board?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: fernly on May 03, 2007, 01:12:01 am
Quote from: Casey Cornelius
Jack...nervously wiping his face again as Aguirre is seen walking back and forth in the trailer and Ennis has his back to Jack.  I like to think that Jack is furtively wiping his face again not for the sake of impressing Aguirre, but this time to make sure he looks his best for Ennis.
It's not mentioned in any of the versions of the three screenplays I have, so credit must be given to Ang Lee and Jake Gyllenhaal for this detail in a film with countless such subtle and meaningful touches.
Casey Cornelius

Hey Casey...great to see you here!

At the same that Jack is wiping his face, Ennis nervously shakes the paper bag.
And maybe I'm reading way too much into it, but that and Jack's gesture together seem to possibly bookend the end of the film, when Ennis carries the other paper bag, after Jack wasn't able to wipe his face clear of the blood that killed him.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: TOoP/Bruce on May 03, 2007, 06:56:23 am
Hey bjblakeslee:

Grateful for the link.  Thanks...
From your comment should I gather that your moniker is True_Oracle-of_Phoenix
on the IMDb Brokeback Board?

True_Oracle_of_Phoenix, I am.  As "bjblakeslee" on IMDB I was a regular poster, but when I ran out of things to say, I became TOoP the Archivist.  (I have saved what I could, but alas, I was unable save everything.  For example, you once began a separate thread on BbM's theatrical poster and it's resemblance not just to Titanic's, but to the double-headed figure of Janus, and to a legend of a same-sex duality archetype in Plato's Symposium.  Did you perchance save that thread?  It eluded my capture.)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: miniangel on May 03, 2007, 07:02:31 am
Fernly, you aren't reading too much into that bag shake. The opening scene and the scene at the Twists have mirror actions and shots, going from the edge to the centre of the film, i,e, starting and ending with the landscape shots. E.g. Jack waits at the bottom of the stairs, his mum waits at the top, Mr T and Aguirre are the first and last to mention Brokeback and each of their speeches is interrupted, etc. etc.

The story also sets the two scenes up as complements of each other.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Casey Cornelius on May 03, 2007, 10:25:25 am
fernly and miniangel:

I'd confirm miniangel's thoughts that film folds in upon itself with the certainty that it is something we need to explore more.   We've spent hours seeking out bookends and mirrors which are obvious and evident throughout the whole film, but I'm convinced that these are all arranged in a symmetry which miniangel has alluded to.

I've always been obsessed with the idea that the film is exactly symmetrical around a central image which has haunted me since about my 5th theatrical viewing of the film.  

At precisely the 1:07:59 timing of the film, there is a shot of Ennis entering his bathroom in his Riverton apartment to retrieve his toothbrush.  As he does so he opens his bathoom medicine chest which creates an image of his face mirrored symmetrically in the centre of the frame. This is followed immediately by a reverse shot from the rear of him exiting the bathroom which exactly mirrors the previous shot of him entering.  If you trace outwards from that moment, one can track plot, verbal and visual elements which are exactly symmetrical on either side of that moment which is close to the exact chronological centre of the film's 2:14 running time.
In addition to those point out by miniangel my initial random observations would see :
1 - the Jimbo the Clown scene mirroring the Mexican Alley scene, Jack attempting to pick up another man;
2 - Alma and Ennis innocently frolicing in the snow mirroring the Thanksgiving debacle with the snow gently falling outside;
3 - exactly tracing out from the previous elements - Ennis self-inflicting pain on himself in the Signal alleyway, whimpering inchoately and yelling at an anonymous by-passer mirroring his picking a fight with an anonymous truck driver with the unconscious intent of stupidly inflicting pain upon himself with the beating in the road
4 - Ennis picking a fight and kicking with a balletic kick the biker in the presence of Alma and his daughters at the Riverton July 1 fireworks mirroring his picking a fight with Alma in the presence of his daughters and kicking over the ash-bucket with a balletic kick as a substitute while the girls play on a swing-set [with its appliqued star decals a possible visual symmetry with the fireworks, but that might be a little too much !]
5 - the obvious one which we've all mentioned of the opening and closing scenes taking place in similar looking trailers, Aguirre's and Ennis's, but adding to this the idea [discussed just last night in the chat room with Ellemeno, Meryl, azt and others] that the first meeting of Jack and Ennis has elements of a marriage ceremony mirroring the discussion of the same in Alma Jr's marriage to Curt.
6 - the final shot with the wind blowing through the grass visible in the open window on the right hand side of the frame balancing the icons in the closet on the left of the frame as homage to Jack's intensely felt absence from Ennis's life mirroring an opening shot of the film with Jack's  impressive, confident profile on the left side of the frame balancing the wind blowing through the grass visible on the right side, the first time Ennis ever laid eyes on Jack.  This use of symmetry within the frame is an obvious use of a technique championed by Michelangelo Antonioni, a film-maker whom Ang Lee has declared one of his major influences.

Just a few thoughts "for what its worth", but I am convinced that these are not random.  True, it could be argued that the film uses so many of the same visual and verbal elements throughout that there is bound to be some repetition.  But I have a gut feeling that the exact symmetry of the film which reads to me like the equivalent of a palindrome is an intentional structural feature by Ang Lee much as composers such as Bartok and J.S. Bach have been shown in musical analysis to have mapped a similar two-dimensional symmetrical structure on top of the fluid chronological, psychologically experienced medium of their multi-movement compositions such as the Music for Strings Percussion and Celeste or the St. John Passion.


Casey
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Daniel on May 03, 2007, 11:17:45 am
Casey, it's good to see you on the boards. I too have pondered the concept of mirroring and symmetry in this film. It seems to be more apparent than in other films, and very possibly Ang's attempt to bring a Hitchcockian resemblance to the film. What I have been more captivated by is the spiritual and psychological transformations that the film seems to be alluding to.

For example, we could say that in that brief moment when Ennis is in the bathroom, he opens a mirrored medicine cabinet. The mirror is present but he does not look into it. Instead he reaches behind it. His mind is set, rather than on the present, on the future and he quickly moves beyond this moment into the rest of the film. The opportunity was there, to look into the mirror. To listen to what Alma was saying and what that meant for his future and his past. But he didn't.

Recently I have been reading a startling book of.... well, I suppose we would call it applicable philosophy: The Translucent Revolution So far, it has brought up some startling parallels between consciousness transformation and the less-acknowledge events of the film (in my opinion). And I will gladly share my readings and interpretations on my personal blog thread.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: LauraGigs on May 03, 2007, 11:52:28 am
Quote
Ennis picking a fight and kicking with a balletic kick the biker in the presence of Alma and his daughters at the Riverton July 1 fireworks mirroring his picking a fight with Alma in the presence of his daughters and kicking over the ash-bucket...

One thing Atz, Latjoreme & I pieced together on another thread:  In each scene of outward conflict between Ennis/Alma and Jack/Lureen, ashes are spilled (in the scene above and just before Jack asks LaShawn to dance.) Followed by the final conflict between Ennis/John over where Jack's ashes will be spilled.

It's also worth mentioning that after the spectacular fireworks scene, no fire burns brightly again in the film. (Jack and Ennis' campfire, raging and blazing in the 2nd tent scene, is low and dying in their subsequent camping trips. And then there's the beautiful and devastating segue to the ashes/dying campfire in the dozy embrace flashback.)

(We could go on and on about this couldn't we!)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: miniangel on May 03, 2007, 12:02:45 pm
We could! It's fascinating.

The point you made, Casey, about the bathroom scene being the middle is most interesting. That is the moment when they begin the pattern of the rest of their lives together - camping out the back of nowhere.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Casey Cornelius on May 03, 2007, 12:09:23 pm
Exactly miniangel:

I've always thought of that bathroom mirror shot essentially as Ennis acknowledging the end of his conventional marriage with Alma and the the start of his 'open', committed relationship with Jack.

Okay, that does it !!

This needs to become a separate thread - would lauragigs, Daniel and you miniangel re-post your comments if I copy my post to start a new thread.
This is too significant a discussion to be an adjunct to Amanda's  thread and I do not want it to capsize hers !!

EDIT:   Okay there's a new thread posted in the Open Discussion - Brokeback's filmic structure as a palindrome?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 03, 2007, 11:54:14 pm
I certainly don't mind this sojourn into complicated analysis that's cropped up over the last few days here in this thread!  Thanks so much for all of your thoughtful insights, Buds!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on May 04, 2007, 02:42:10 pm
this may have been discussed before, but what the heck..  :)

I love how Jack sortof 'nuzzles' the bedroll (i was going to say pillow, but then i realized there were no pillows lol) just as he puts Ennis's hand 'you know where' during the first tent scene.

I never noticed this during my theater viewing because the whole scene is too dark (never noticed the adorable handholding during that scene either.). I found out about this when i saw one of the many You Tube video's.

Talk about a subtle, lovable detail! Such great acting.  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 04, 2007, 09:39:01 pm
 :)  This film is just filled with significant nuzzling, isn't it?  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: stoppedatennis on May 28, 2007, 07:52:43 am
Well there are two subtle instances that stand out for me.

1.  During FNIT after Ennis jumps up in suprise to what Jack is doing, placing his hand on Ennis, Jack subtly takes Ennis's hand and places it back on his apparent erection. This time Ennis does'nt resist, then Jack proceeds to removing his coat. Did anyone else notice this?

2.. About Jack's mom., When Ennis arrives to retrieve Jack's ashes Mrs. Twist opens the door and comes outside as oppose to Mr. Twist. She knew who he was already, and led Ennis to the shirts with a gentle prodding to go upstairs to Jack's room where she had "kept it just like Jack would have wanted" Ennis discovers the shirts.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 05, 2007, 12:30:44 am
Well there are two subtle instances that stand out for me.

1.  During FNIT after Ennis jumps up in suprise to what Jack is doing, placing his hand on Ennis, Jack subtly takes Ennis's hand and places it back on his apparent erection. This time Ennis does'nt resist, then Jack proceeds to removing his coat. Did anyone else notice this?

2.. About Jack's mom., When Ennis arrives to retrieve Jack's ashes Mrs. Twist opens the door and comes outside as oppose to Mr. Twist. She knew who he was already, and led Ennis to the shirts with a gentle prodding to go upstairs to Jack's room where she had "kept it just like Jack would have wanted" Ennis discovers the shirts.

Yup, these are two great details Bud!  That gesture that you mention in item 1. ( :D) is really easy to miss... I think partly because their hands are off-screen, so you can't exactly see what's precisely happening.  But based on the angle of their arms and the brief exchange of glances, Ennis's sudden stillness, etc. it does seem to be just what you said.  I think that Jack redirecting Ennis's hand like that and Ennis's reaction this second time is exactly what gives Jack the confidence to proceed.

And, the more I watch the scene in Lightning Flat, the more I notice moments of silent communication between Ennis and Mrs. Twist.  She absolutely knows who Ennis is and clearly was a big factor in the preservation of those shirts (and keeping them a secret from Old Man Twist).  When Ennis comes back downstair Mrs. Twist smiles and nods at him when she sees what he's carrying.  I love Mrs. Twist.
 :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on June 05, 2007, 02:04:53 am
Yup, these are two great details Bud!  That gesture that you mention in item 1. ( :D) is really easy to miss... I think partly because their hands are off-screen, so you can't exactly see what's precisely happening.  But based on the angle of their arms and the brief exchange of glances, Ennis's sudden stillness, etc. it does seem to be just what you said.  I think that Jack redirecting Ennis's hand like that and Ennis's reaction this second time is exactly what gives Jack the confidence to proceed.

And, the more I watch the scene in Lightning Flat, the more I notice moments of silent communication between Ennis and Mrs. Twist.  She absolutely knows who Ennis is and clearly was a big factor in the preservation of those shirts (and keeping them a secret from Old Man Twist).  When Ennis comes back downstair Mrs. Twist smiles and nods at him when she sees what he's carrying.  I love Mrs. Twist.
 :)

I couldn't agree more about Mrs Twist. And like Amanda, I see more and more what's going on between her and Ennis, the more I see the movie. She's curious waiting for Ennis when he comes back downstairs and to me, she seems downright relieved when she sees that Ennis has the shirts.

I still don't see the first one, Jack placing Ennis's hand on his crotch a second time. I had read it before and looked for it the second to last time I saw the movie (last time was with my fellow Brokies at the BBQ and I was totally swept away again).
Guess I'll put the DVD in later and watch the part in slow motion.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 05, 2007, 07:50:05 pm
I still don't see the first one, Jack placing Ennis's hand on his crotch a second time. I had read it before and looked for it the second to last time I saw the movie (last time was with my fellow Brokies at the BBQ and I was totally swept away again).
Guess I'll put the DVD in later and watch the part in slow motion.

Hey Bud,

Well, you don't actually see their hands because they're off screen at the bottom of the screen.  What you do see is Jack bringing Ennis's arm back over in the direction of his crotch.  So, you see the angle of their arms which is very suggestive.  You also see Ennis become very still momentarily and (to me) it looks like he sort of thoughtfully looks in Jack's eyes (eventhough Ennis still looks pretty sleepy and confused).  This happens almost as soon as they both sit upright.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Dagi on June 11, 2007, 03:58:20 pm
Hi everyone, what a great thread !

I donīt know if this has been mentioned before, but I love the way  Jack (in TS1, after unbuckling his belt in a way that always makes me moan slightly) actually pulls Ennis on his back. I read so much about Ennis shoving Jack, but I see Jack doing his part to get in position.

And what strikes me as very cute is that Ennis strokes the (first) postcard with his thumb while reading it!

And yes, I love Jack īnuzzlingī the bedroll and moaning into it.

And I love the sounds they make when they kiss.

And I love Jacks tongue whenever I get to see it.  :P  :o



 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Rayn on June 12, 2007, 06:19:04 pm
I love it when Ennis teases Jack about his harmonic playing.  It's almost mid-day-broad-day foreplay!
I love it when Jack giggles at Ennis' jokes about his playing.

I love it when in the campsite Jack curls his mouth into a cute smile and says,
"That's more words than you spoke in two weeks."  It's not what he says, it's the smile before he says that.

I love the first reunion embrace, when they're trying to pull away, break it off and the last thing Ennis does, like he's just got to get a little more of Jack on him... is nudge and wipe his head on Jack before he walks away.


That is such a brillant subtle bit of business from Ledger.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on June 12, 2007, 10:21:03 pm
Stop that, Rayn!  I'm gonna have to go watch the movie again in a minute!  :P  :P  :P
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Rayn on June 13, 2007, 12:06:27 am
You're funny Meryl !   Now turn the DVD off and do what you gotta do today!    :P

LOL
R
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Dagi on June 13, 2007, 08:52:55 am
I love Ennis whiping his mouth before introducing Jack to Alma (makes me think of Annies words "hot saliva welling"...aaawww).

I love Jackīs repeatedly looking at Ennisīs lips while talking about Bobby and Lureen in the same scene.

And Jackīs mother stroking Ennisīs hand while putting the folded shirts into the paper bag is just too lovely!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Rayn on June 13, 2007, 09:17:20 am
There is a lot of love and concern, thank goodness, from Mrs. Twist.  I didn't catch the stroking of the hand while putting shirts in bag though.... oh well, gotta view that little scene one more time. 

I like when Ennis folds Junior's sweater up and appears to kiss it as a last action before putting it in the closet for her. 

He really is a loving Dad.

 ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: LauraGigs on June 13, 2007, 11:55:00 am
Quote
And Jackīs mother stroking Ennisīs hand while putting the folded shirts into the paper bag is just too lovely!

OMG, I totally missed this too. Will have to watch for it.

(I wanted them to give each other a big hug — they each surely needed one.  But of course it would ruin Lee's/Proulx's sense of restraint, which shouldn't be changed no matter how we might want!)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Noviani on June 26, 2007, 11:54:58 pm
i remember jack was shirtless in TS2. i think because he was anticipating ennis to join and then...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Dagi on July 01, 2007, 04:17:36 pm
I love Ennisī always messed up hair whenever he takes his hat off...in Arguirreīs trailor, in TS2..
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Rayn on July 01, 2007, 09:23:43 pm

5. The controversial "I love you" that I'm convinced Ennis says as he hugs the shirts (tv on really loud, headphones on, 3 inches from tv)


It's obvious though, words or no words at that moment,  he's loves Jack, but you heard words?  Really?  I never noticed his mouth moving for anything more than sigh.  I have to check that out too now.


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Noviani on August 16, 2007, 04:23:04 am
I love Jack's sweet surrender in giving Ennis the control of their relationship.

that's not ideal, but damn romantic.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: miniangel on August 20, 2007, 12:12:12 pm
Hi Rayn,
Oh I'm convinced of it.  It's more of a momentary fluttering of his lips as he breathes out heavily... but I hear "I love you" and I won't let anyone tell me otherwise!!!! (seriously .... sit 3inches from the telly, put some head phones on and turn the volume right up!)


Susie (http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_1_201.gif)

You won't get any argument from me. It's there all right, along with "darlin" (reunion) and "sweetie" (punch).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on August 20, 2007, 04:21:43 pm
You won't get any argument from me. It's there all right, along with "darlin" (reunion) and "sweetie" (punch).

Darlin?? Sweetie?? Really?  :o


I need to watch this movie again.  ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 06, 2007, 10:36:04 am
I watched the movie last night for the first time since the Castro screening. One subtle detail I loved was when Ennis returned to the apartment on the day after the reunion to grab some clothes. Alma stands at the bedroom door in a rigid position, practically demanding that he ask Jack to come in for coffee. He brushes past her, saying "Aw, he's from Texas." Spunky Alma is not to be put off so easily. She follows him to the bathroom door, saying, "Texans don't drink coffee?" Ennis doesn't answer, but he has a toothbrush sticking out of his mouth. Even tho I've seen the movie umpteen times, I had to laff at that moment. Ennis gives himself away on so many levels with that "truthbrush" sticking out of his mouth. It has an air of comic obscenity to it! What do you think? Methinks that was something Heath dreamed up!!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on October 06, 2007, 12:14:05 pm
THAT IS A GOOD POINT AND QUESTION, YOU ARE SAYING FRONT-RANGER!!

CAN WE FIND OUT SOMEHOW??

And, remember too when Ennis says: You do not know, to his former wife as she and he washes dishes?? He keeps QUIET very long time front of her; like he had still such a toothbrush in his mouth... not wanting to tell her of his private love affaire with Jack!! But, she keeps on her butt... talk!!

Hugs!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 06, 2007, 02:09:04 pm
THAT IS A GOOD POINT AND QUESTION, YOU ARE SAYING FRONT-RANGER!!

CAN WE FIND OUT SOMEHOW??

And, remember too when Ennis says: You do not know, to his former wife as she and he washes dishes?? He keeps QUIET very long time front of her; like he had still such a toothbrush in his mouth... not wanting to tell her of his private love affaire with Jack!! But, she keeps on her butt... talk!!

Hugs!!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  Butt...talk, Artiste!! Can you say that in French??

 :P
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on October 06, 2007, 02:41:22 pm
You are FUNNY Front-Ranger, as you make my day happier!!

Yes, Ennis's wife was jealous?? She still wanted to get her BUTT pleased by Ennis I supposed even after their divorce??

Hugs!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 06, 2007, 03:48:47 pm
I don't doubt it, Artiste!! So, here's a pic of the scene under discussion:

(http://www.divshare.com/img/1082685-2ac.jpg)

I know this is crazy, but somehow this pic reminds me of the famous picture of Benjamin staring at the outstretched leg of Mrs. Robinson!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on October 06, 2007, 03:57:45 pm
That is after she has seen her man kissed another man!! Is she right now jealous?? She is agressive in this scene.

She is also utmostly agressive also in the scene at that famous supper with her 2nd husband where she tells him  Ennis off... for being with Jack Twist... (for having sex with another man)!! Because she knows that all those years her former husband had many sex episodes with Jack!! She assaults Jack's name even!!

She is lovable in a way... for waiting years to get rid of Ennis, but she still hopes to get Ennis back, I guess, even if she tells him off now!!

Right??

Hugs!!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 06, 2007, 06:20:06 pm
The scene of the "morning after" with the "truthbrush" (  :laugh: ) is so complex visually.  All the doors and reflections make it seem like navigating the space of that small apartment is really, really difficult.  This seems to maybe be a metaphor for all the obstacles that exist in this part of Ennis's life... when all he wants to do is hurry up and get back to Jack.

Thanks for the pic Lee.  Visual aides are always helpful in these discussions.
:)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on October 06, 2007, 06:45:31 pm
Thanks!

I like your expression: like a revolving door!

So the toothbruch scene is like a revolving door!!

So I think is also the other scene when she tells her past husband off for having sex and love with Jack instead of with her!! Like a revolving door, because she still loves him but can not have him anymore!! No sex with Ennis anymore with her!!

??

Hugs!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: samwise_fan1965 on November 11, 2007, 12:30:44 am
I agree on the idea that Jack's mother may not have been ready just yet to go through his  stuff. It took almost a year after my mother passed before we felt comfortable clearing her stuff.


In the original short story, Jack notices, when Ennis strips to warsh everything he can reach, that Ennis is not wearing underwear nor socks. That implies that Jack is wearing them.

Oh, in regard to whether Mrs. Twist looked through Jack's left behind belongings, some people have to wait a long time after a loved one, even a child, before they sort through them. For some people, the grief and bereavement process lasts a long time. While Jack's mother never said that her adult son helped her in the house, only that he helped his father on the ranch, I believe that when clean clothing was put in Jack's closet, it was Jack who took it upstairs. Annie Proulx's Mrs. Twist was recovering from an operation when Ennis showed up at her home.

It was more that a year after my late partner/husband, Ed, died before I got any professional help with the loss of Ed and it took few months of weekly sessions to get to where I could be get on with his loss. But, then by that time, I had another big problem I had gotten assaulted from behind and hit in the head several times. Then I had to continue therapy related to that trauma.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: samwise_fan1965 on November 11, 2007, 12:33:47 am
Don't know if this was mentioned yet but I love the little smile on Ennis' face when he sends that little prayer up. It is only one of two times he seems really happy. The other tiime is of course when he is standing on the landing looking down at Jack when he first arrives.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on November 11, 2007, 02:07:25 am
Those are two of my favorite moments, too, samwise_fan.  8)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Ellemeno on November 11, 2007, 05:33:18 am
Don't know if this was mentioned yet but I love the little smile on Ennis' face when he sends that little prayer up. It is only one of two times he seems really happy. The other tiime is of course when he is standing on the landing looking down at Jack when he first arrives.



And when they are riding along and Jack is playing the harmonica, "Run them sheep off..."  Samwise, it is GREAT to see you here!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on November 11, 2007, 01:34:27 pm
Thanks to all!


May we have much other such little details?  I saw some last night when I re-saw the BM movie!

Hugs!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 12, 2007, 12:42:26 am
Don't know if this was mentioned yet but I love the little smile on Ennis' face when he sends that little prayer up. It is only one of two times he seems really happy. The other tiime is of course when he is standing on the landing looking down at Jack when he first arrives.


Greetings samwise!  It's amazing that you brought up this detail... because earlier this weekend I was watching BBM and was struck (once again) by not only Ennis's smile there but also the little wink that he gives Jack!!  It's just such a sweet, open moment for Ennis.  *sigh*


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on November 13, 2007, 10:38:28 am
Smiles!!

Both main actors do try to smile to the other... at times!! But so rarely!!
More would have been OK ??

Hugs!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: samwise_fan1965 on November 20, 2007, 12:16:28 am
I know Jack smiles a lot, at least early on anyway. But I think that since Ennis smiles so few times it is a real treat when he does let those walls down for however brief a moment.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 20, 2007, 12:19:43 am
I know Jack smiles a lot, at least early on anyway. But I think that since Ennis smiles so few times it is a real treat when he does let those walls down for however brief a moment.

Yes, watching Ennis "come out of his shell" with Jack early on during their summer on Brokeback is just amazing.  The scene where Jack makes Ennis laugh by jumping around and acting goofy... is just so simple and so magical at the same time.  It really is a nice relief to see Ennis relaxing a bit.


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on November 20, 2007, 07:47:39 pm
At other times besides Ennis nor Jack, we see which person smile at either?

Hugs!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 16, 2007, 02:12:12 pm
I love the scenes where Jack and Ennis are setting up camp. One example is the short scene where Jack puts a rasher of bacon in a sack and hoists it on a tripod so bears can't get it. I love that scene!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 16, 2007, 02:36:13 pm
Another incredibly subtle detail that I've grown to love is the blowing trash. When Jack and Ennis are parting, after they come down from the mountain, right after Ennis says, "Well see you around, huh?" there are two little bits of trash that blow across the scene behind Jack. One is black, the other white. That's the sad part...

But then, we see them again! Behind Jack as he rushes to meet Ennis again after four years apart!! That's the happy part!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on December 16, 2007, 02:59:12 pm
I love the scenes where Jack and Ennis are setting up camp. One example is the short scene where Jack puts a rasher of bacon in a sack and hoists it on a tripod so bears can't get it. I love that scene!



Me too  :). I love Jack's gloved hands. I also love the splashing water buckets and the sounds of the stones Ennis puts together to build a fireplace *clack-clack*

But I always stumble about the elk meat later. They secure the bacon and other food from the bears, but the fresh, raw, half-bloody and smelling elk meat is on a rack on the ground - directly amid the camp. Not a clever idea. But it does make an atmospheric picture.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 08, 2008, 11:30:15 pm
Heya,

Sorry if this has been posted before (I haven't re-read this thread prior to posting this... so it very well may have been mentioned in the past). 

I watched the first half of the movie just now and I made a note to myself to post an observation about a detail towards the very beginning of the film here in this thread.

Front-Ranger (in another thread) brought up the concept of Ang Lee substituting or rearranging details from Proulx's story in new or even surprising places in the movie.  Sometimes something that is said or described metaphorically comes into the film as a visual image, etc.  And this is just this exact scenario I think.

In Proulx's story, of course, in the reunion scene she includes this bit of great description about the chemistry between Jack and Ennis:

"His shaking hand grazed Ennis's hand, electrical current snapped between them."

Well, I just notice in the film that there's a very prominently placed electrical socket visible on the exterior of Aguirre's trailer when Jack and Ennis shake hands for the first time and make their introductions.  The socket is on the (essentially bare) wall behind Jack.

Neat, hunh?!  8) :D

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/1669697-b40.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/1669697-b40)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 08, 2008, 11:36:48 pm
oooh, that's electifying Sister!!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on January 08, 2008, 11:55:33 pm
That is funny atz! Notice how high Jack is, compared to Ennis' position?? Does that say something... as for now I make the move, know the moves and this job?? I have a crush on you Ennis!! ??

....

Front-Ranger, why do you like this: One example is the short scene where Jack puts a rasher of bacon in a sack and hoists it on a tripod so bears can't get it. May I ask?

Hugs, hugs ladies!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sandy on January 09, 2008, 08:30:02 am
So guys, as I said in another post, I'm no longer going to read 46 pages of posts on each thread:I shall simply throw in my two penn'orth and keep on top of the new topics/posts!  So, sorry if I am repeating things that have already been said.

I love the scene when they have moved camp and (in a distant shot) we see Jack taking a log from the river towards the new site.  Ennis walks over to him and seems to punch him on the shoulder.  A friendly gesture, or asking if he needs help?  This happens before their friendship becomes physical and I LOVE it!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sandy on January 09, 2008, 08:36:55 am
I am getting little over excited and forget things so here's another.

Ennis is the one who is scared of the possible repercussions of them living together, and he is the more 'physical' partner (i.e. fight scenes, shoving Jack during the last fight, and even the FNIT scene, he quickly takes control).  But in the motel, he is cradled in Jack's arm.  He is being held as opposed to holding. 

And here comes another!

When they part after the summer, and Jack asks if Ennis is 'doing it again' next summer (doing what?   ;) !) Seriously though, the emotions that flit over Jack's face, in particular, the fact that he raises his eyebrows after saying "but I might be back" is so amazing- I think he is opening his heart and almost begging Ennis to come too.   
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 09, 2008, 06:34:36 pm
I agree with you, Sandy, Jack's eyebrow action is awesome!! Just as fabulous as his tongue action in the post-divorce scene!!

Also, I love the Siesta Motel scene too because it is like a mirror of the dozy embrace scene. At last, Jack feels accepted enuff to embrace Ennis, and Ennis is comfortable enuff to "lay back" (another lovable subtle detail!!) in Jack's arms! Another thing I like about that scene is the reflection on Jack's chest. I like to imagine that the moonlight is coming in thru the window and reflecting off Jack's chest. OMG, I have to watch this movie again!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: LauraGigs on January 09, 2008, 09:48:09 pm
Another thing I like about that scene is the reflection on Jack's chest. I like to imagine that the moonlight is coming in thru the window and reflecting off Jack's chest. OMG, I have to watch this movie again!

Dude, if you like Jack's chest, watch the fullscreen version.  It's got even more chest!   :P  (I know it's sacrilege, but at least once it's OK.) 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 29, 2008, 10:57:10 pm

This is not really a detail since it's really about a full sequence... but it's lovable (and here I'm bouncing off of some of the more recent posts in this thread).  After watching BBM again on Friday night, I was struck (maybe more than ever given my heightened emotional state these days)... by how gorgeous the motel scene really is.  The incredible intimacy of it is just really amazing.  It's so simple but it conveys so, so much... especially in their posture.  With Ennis's ear smushed into Jack's shoulder... Jack nuzzling and speaking into Ennis's hair... the amazing pretzel-like positioning of the arms...  The amount of intimacy conveyed through such simple means.

And, I was also struck by the immediate and almost shocking sad turn that the motel scene takes on towards the end of this little segment.  When Ennis says "I'm stuck with what I've got here" and Jack silently closes his eyes... it's just overwhelmingly sad.

OK... and so here's the real lovable detail for this thread... the little gleam of a tear that appears in Ennis's eye when he says "I'm stuck with what I've got here"... just blows me away.  That combined with the way he squeezes his eyes closed and takes a drag on his cigarette.  Such unbelievable acting.  Gorgeous.

 :'(

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 30, 2008, 01:46:22 pm
... the little gleam of a tear that appears in Ennis's eye when he says "I'm stuck with what I've got here"... :'(



Choke!! Is that his left eye, the one with the tear when he picks up the toy cowboy on a horse in Jack's room?? Also, which eye has the tear in the divorce scene? I think in the lake scene, it's both eyes.  :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Artiste on January 30, 2008, 01:49:43 pm
Thanks Front-Ranger, thanks atz, thanks too all too!!

Since you mention toy cowboy on horse, is that the same as someone was sculpting in the tent?

Keep care all,

hugs!!!!!!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 30, 2008, 05:10:52 pm
No. If you look carefully, the horse that Ennis was whittling was stocky, sortof like the Trojan horse. I've seen this actual horse, and it is made out of pine, I believe (hopefully lodgepole or Ponderosa pine like the ones found in the Big Horn Mountains). But the horse and rider on Jack's childhood desk are much skinner and are made out of metal, I believe. It fits, because Ennis is more "wooden" and of the earth (he also harbored a secret), while Jack was more conducive--we know he attracted lightning, hehe--and more associated with metal things like can openers, harmonicas, <gulp> tire irons...

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nakymaton on January 30, 2008, 06:09:26 pm
while Jack was more conducive--we know he attracted lightning, hehe--and more associated with metal things like can openers, harmonicas...

One might call Jack's personality "magnetic," even...
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 30, 2008, 06:21:47 pm
One might call Jack's personality "magnetic," even...

Right as usual, friend Mel!! I'm praying for snow to keep being dumped on you so you'll bring us more of your wit which we've missed around this place!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: lori on February 22, 2008, 03:13:59 pm
Hello,
I've been searching around for a thread where this is appropriate but couldn't seem tofind the right one.  Hope maybe you'll consider this a lovable detail...I've been thinking about the different ways Ennis says, "Jack Fuckin' Twist" in the movie.  At the beginning of the reunion scene, when he drops the pan in the river and at their last trip up to Brokeback when he threatens Jack.  Interesting, isn't it?
Lori
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 22, 2008, 03:24:56 pm
Hello,
I've been searching around for a thread where this is appropriate but couldn't seem tofind the right one.  Hope maybe you'll consider this a lovable detail...I've been thinking about the different ways Ennis says, "Jack Fuckin' Twist" in the movie.  At the beginning of the reunion scene, when he drops the pan in the river and at their last trip up to Brokeback when he threatens Jack.  Interesting, isn't it?
Lori

Yes!  It's very, very interesting!  And, I think it certainly qualifies as a lovable detail.  ;D

Thanks for jumping in here.

The evolution of how that nickname-phrase is uttered by Ennis is a very telling sign about the stresses and tensions that have increasing impacts on their relationship.

Thinking about Ennis during the reunion scene... the moment when he comes out on the balcony and says "Jack Fuckin' Twist" always reminds me of a Romeo and Juliet-type balcony scene.  The fact that he says Jack's name actually reinforces this for me ("Jack Fuckin Twist" = "Romeo, Romeo"... in a certain way).  It's like an impoverished, small-town Wyoming, cowboy version of a Shakespearean star-crossed lovers romance.


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on February 22, 2008, 04:21:48 pm
Apologies if this has been mentioned before!!!!

I love when Ennis gets the 1st postcard and rubs his thumb along the edge of it.
It is almost as if he cannot believe what he is seeing/reading/holding.Particularly considering how much time has passed.
I can remember getting cards from loved ones ,and fngering them in just such a manner. The person almost becomes tangible ,as if touching something they have also held provides a link to them,makes you feel just that bit closer to them.
His expression is also a lesson in understatement ,and at the same time portrays so much.
How sad that such talent is no longer with us.
Why do the good always die young?

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on February 23, 2008, 07:02:41 am
Hello,
I've been searching around for a thread where this is appropriate but couldn't seem tofind the right one.  Hope maybe you'll consider this a lovable detail...I've been thinking about the different ways Ennis says, "Jack Fuckin' Twist" in the movie.  At the beginning of the reunion scene, when he drops the pan in the river and at their last trip up to Brokeback when he threatens Jack.  Interesting, isn't it?
Lori

I was just sitting here smiling at the fact that Ennis did have this kind of nickname for Jack, and wondered how or why it might have come about.

Maybe to match his own three tiered name Ennis Del Mar, he affectionately and humourously gave Jack a sjmilar three tier name.

Or maybe because he only introuduced himself as Ennis when he first met Jack, and the fact that Jack made a point of asking for his surname as well, so after that, he used the adjective fucking before Jack's surname, as a way of humoursly accentuating the Twist part of it....

I love the way it just rolls off Ennis's tongue, when he is addressing Jack, whether it be in excitement as in the reunion scene, or frustration as in the river scene, or in anger as in the last scene......

It really is a lovable subtle detail.......
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on February 23, 2008, 12:11:24 pm
I totally agree with both details being mentioned here lately. I think Jack F'in Twist is a very affectionate nickname, even the last time we hear it, in the lakeside argument. Ennis clearly is not affectionate in this moment, but yet, it is such a familiar term I think it shows their intimacy and close connection even in this harsh scene.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 23, 2008, 01:20:59 pm
I totally agree with both details being mentioned here lately. I think Jack F'in Twist is a very affectionate nickname, even the last time we hear it, in the lakeside argument. Ennis clearly is not affectionate in this moment, but yet, it is such a familiar term I think it shows their intimacy and close connection even in this harsh scene.

Yes, I think by the time of the lakeside argument it's almost an "inside joke" or just something commonly understood between the two of them to have more meaning than the simple three words imply on their surface. 

If we (and Jack) hadn't heard the phrase "Jack Fuckin' Twist" previously in overtly affectionate scenes (with much different tone of voice) and this argument was the first utterance of this... it would probably be heard as more of a clear-cut insult or more mean-spirited.  But, because we know from previous encounters that this phrase carries affectionate associations for Ennis, it doesn't come across as harshly as it could otherwise.



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on February 24, 2008, 02:59:54 pm
Apologies if this has been mentioned before!!!!

I love when Ennis gets the 1st postcard and rubs his thumb along the edge of it.
It is almost as if he cannot believe what he is seeing/reading/holding.Particularly considering how much time has passed.
I can remember getting cards from loved ones ,and fngering them in just such a manner. The person almost becomes tangible ,as if touching something they have also held provides a link to them,makes you feel just that bit closer to them.
His expression is also a lesson in understatement ,and at the same time portrays so much.
How sad that such talent is no longer with us.
Why do the good always die young?



I loved that little gesture with the postcard too! And the fact that you could see his lips move as he read the words again. It shows such sensitivity underneath that tough exterior.

Just like the last scene in his trailer when he was rubbing his finger over the postcard of brokeback mountain again.

It is mesmerizing!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on February 24, 2008, 05:41:39 pm
I loved that little gesture with the postcard too! And the fact that you could see his lips move as he read the words again. It shows such sensitivity underneath that tough exterior.

Just like the last scene in his trailer when he was rubbing his finger over the postcard of brokeback mountain again.

It is mesmerizing!

How true,
how can I have forgotten the last post card scene,I have sobbed over it enough times!!!!

I also have to say I just love the Daniel Day Lewis quote at the bottom of your posts .I could not have said anything truer myself.

Any interview I  have watched with Heath he always struck me as one of life's thinkers. I loved the fact that he was not afraid to be so soul searching and introspective. So many people are too scared to scratch more than skin deep,for fear of what they may discover.

I also loved his self deprecating humour,and genuine humility, something not often seen in the "big stars". Maybe in the end he just gave too much of himself.

He reminds me of a comet,burning so brightlly,all too briefly,a wonder to behold and then all too quickly gone.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 24, 2008, 06:50:05 pm
I loved the look Jack gave when Randall was propositioning him and he realized he just wasn't innerested in Randall...because he loved Ennis. And Ennis gave this same look after he dropped LaShawn cold and she told him "Girls don't fall in love with fun."

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 25, 2008, 04:50:58 pm
Here's Ennis giving The Look.

(http://www.divshare.com/img/3880748-57a.jpg)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on February 26, 2008, 12:54:02 am
I loved that little gesture with the postcard too! And the fact that you could see his lips move as he read the words again. It shows such sensitivity underneath that tough exterior.

Just like the last scene in his trailer when he was rubbing his finger over the postcard of brokeback mountain again.

It is mesmerizing!

the lips moving also show that Ennis has trouble reading, or seeing the words clearly.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on February 26, 2008, 12:55:11 am
I loved the look Jack gave when Randall was propositioning him and he realized he just wasn't innerested in Randall...because he loved Ennis. And Ennis gave this same look after he dropped LaShawn cold and she told him "Girls don't fall in love with fun."



I agree, Randall was just an Ennis substitute.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: myprivatejack on February 26, 2008, 02:35:10 pm
I think that has already been said,but I find particularly nice the motel scene,when Jack asks Ennis "What about you?"-referring to the four years they have been far from each other-.Ennis answers "I don't know" and for a moment he seems as if his eyes were full with tears.Not finding a real answer,as always,he strokes Jack's arms slightly and tenderly.For a man of few words as Ennis is,this is a love proof,that Jack itself realises,since he says immediately after:"Old Brokeback got us good...".A very nice scene indeed. :-*
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on March 06, 2008, 11:06:55 am
I'm not sure if this fits to lovable subtle details, but it is a small detail and a new thought on my side.

We all have noticed Heath's wrist tattoo (left wrist, looks like a leather strap and on the inside he has the letters KAOS, standing for his mother and sisters) being visible the one or other time in BBM.

Yesterday I saw BBM again and I saw this tattoo not only here and there, but numerous times. As I said on another thread, maybe I was just more receptive to it, I don't know.  :-\

But the thing is: why do we see the wrist tattoo - but not one single hint of his other tattoos? He didn't have the leaf on his hand and the ones on his forearms by the time of filming. But he did have the ones on his shoulders. And they were covered up properly, you didn't even see the smallest hint of them. Also, I've seen I'm not There last week and you don't see anything of the wrist tattoo. It can't be too hard to cover up a tattoo properly.
So why is the wrist tattoo visible numerous times? Ennis sure would not have a tattoo. But still, I think of the tattooed lady in the dance scene with Cassie.

Logic tells me we see Ennis's/Heath's wrist more often than his shoulders, so there simply is more opportunity for a mistake to happen and the tat not being covered up properly.
And yes, I know it would be far-fetched to assume we see the tat on purpose. But then, we've discussed other far-fetched details before (and sometimes asked ourselves if we're seeing ghosts  ;)) - but this detail is bugging me since yesterday.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on March 06, 2008, 11:20:00 am
I don't have any thoughts on your observation per se, except to wonder why actors get prominent tattoos in the first place. Same with pierced ears.

I understand the appeal of the look, but when I see an ear piercing on a man playing a character who would not have a pierced ear, I'm always distracted -- it reminds me that it's an actor playing a role. Similarly with tattoos: a discrete tattoo here or there is fine, but why get really visible, numerous, ink-heavy tattoos that must be (inadequately) disguised with makeup? Why voluntarily do something to your body that is counterproductive for your work/art?

OK, sort of OT, but this always puzzles me.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 06, 2008, 11:35:14 am
I would think that they get the tattoos because they must know that they're easy to cover with body make-up.  Otherwise, you'd think it would actually put their casting opportunities in jeopardy.
But, it does seem like quite a pain... so I guess it must just be that certain actors are really passionate about getting tattoos.  At least pierced ears are more easy to deal with by removing the earring or even letting the hole grow closed... pierced ears seem like a more subtle problem cosmetically.

The question of pierced ears actually makes me think of the motel scene.  To me, Jake's ear always looks like the kid of ear that has once been pierced but has grown back together again.  I don't know... maybe that's just what his ear looks like.  Does anyone know if he once had pierced ears?  I'm exposing the fact that I'm not the most knowledgeable Gyllenhaallic (or Heathen for that matter) here.


But, back to Chrissi's question.

I think you might be right that the glimpses of the wrist tattoo probably are largely little production errors... and there probably were lots of opportunities for these errors since Ennis wears gloves and long shirts/jackets that probably could interfer a lot with body make up used to cover up the wrist.  Also, maybe the tattoo that looks like a piece of string isn't really that distracting or problematic since I guess it could be conceivable that Ennis might at times have a piece of string tied around his wrist.  Essentially, visually it's not so distracting (maybe?).  Or, I guess one option is that for some reason Heath wanted the wrist tattoos visible on occasion for some reason... but that somehow seems unlikely.




Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on March 06, 2008, 12:20:41 pm
Distracting from my own question here:

The other day I posted a photo on HHH of the making of I'm not There, where Heath gets a tat covered:

(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m47/Penthesilea06/Heath/normal_INT002t.jpg)

Like Amanda, I don't think it's much of a problem to cover them up, otherwise actors wouldn't get them. I think make-up is checked (and fixed if necessary) between takes anyway. I've never noticed any of Heath's tats (or of other actors) in other movies.
Which brings me back to my question: why do we see the wrist tat not only once or twice (which I would buy as production mistake), but several times?

At the moment, I think both possibilies are unlikely, that they made the same production mistake with the same tat relatively 'often', but also to think it was done deliberate. Hm  :-\
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on March 06, 2008, 12:42:00 pm
I don't think the tattoo was deliberately visible. I couldn't picture Ennis with a tattoo. He would probably think that was kind of a hippie thing to do. And we all know how he felt about them.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on March 06, 2008, 02:16:03 pm
Like Amanda, I don't think it's much of a problem to cover them up, otherwise actors wouldn't get them. I think make-up is checked (and fixed if necessary) between takes anyway. I've never noticed any of Heath's tats (or of other actors) in other movies.

Well, my thought was that it must be somewhat of a problem to cover them up, or we wouldn't see them in BBM, either. I know it can be done, but it must not be foolproof. I remember years ago reading a quote from Cher, who had just gotten some big tattoo, saying she knew it meant she would never get another movie role again but that's OK, she really wanted the tat anyway. Now obviously it's not THAT problematic, but you'd think it might be more trouble or risk than it's worth. Especially for tats in really conspicuous areas, like the wrist.

As for piercings, I think that after they've been there for a while they do not grow back very easily.

Then again, here we are talking about a medium where they can make people look 50 years older or like monsters or Dr. Seuss characters or give them serious wounds or whatever ... so I guess covering up a tattoo wouldn't be an insurmountable problem!  :laugh:

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread, but I've always wondered that. Just as I wonder when I see cashiers with long, carefully polished fingernails.



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 16, 2008, 11:33:06 am
Jack is so lovable when his thoughts come out despite him trying to cover them up for Ennis' sake:

"We should both be in this camp."

"That's one a the two things I need right now." (from the story)

"I can't get by on two HAFs a year."

He's always thinking in twos.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on March 16, 2008, 07:52:45 pm
Jack is so lovable when his thoughts come out despite him trying to cover them up for Ennis' sake:

"We should both be in this camp."

"That's one a the two things I need right now." (from the story)

"I can't get by on two HAFs a year."

He's always thinking in twos.



Good point about the "twining" and "paralleling" comments made by Jack! This compliments my obsession to see the film as a palindrome.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: elomelo on March 16, 2008, 09:05:55 pm
Apologies if this has been mentioned but the dissapearing log? Maybe Jack knocked it off accidentally when he looked towards Ennis when Agguired peered through his binoculars.

Another thing: when Ennis tells Jack for the first time about marrying Alma when he comes off the mountain, Jack ignores the comment like nothing happened.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on March 16, 2008, 09:37:03 pm
the block of wood doesn't really disappear, it is just back in the same location where Jack has picked it up before Aguirre rode up. In other words, the scene was filmed in several takes, and the continuity people didn't notice that there was a discrepancy in between the takes.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on March 16, 2008, 09:39:15 pm
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,8644.120.html

here are some other "mistakes" that we discussed on another thread.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on March 17, 2008, 12:07:56 pm
Good point about the "twining" and "paralleling" comments made by Jack! This compliments my obsession to see the film as a palindrome.

Broke, a lot of us share that obsession. I know of one person who thinks it's a mirror, literally scene for scene. Personally, I don't think it's quite that symmetrical -- there are reflecting scenes that aren't in perfect opposite sequence, and little mini-mirrors thrown in here and there, to keep the pattern from being too neat.

But definitely there are matching reflected images, the most obvious being the opening scene with Ennis riding in a truck going in one direction at dawn, carrying a bag with two shirts, and the scene near the end of Ennis riding in a truck going in the opposite direction at sunset, carrying a bag with two shirts. In fact, that one is SO obvious it almost seems like a deliberate suggestion to viewers to look for others.




Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 17, 2008, 12:26:50 pm
I agree that the mirroring/symmetry/palindrome pattern isn't always completely neat and tidy.  But, there are certainly lots of recurring patterns (as we've all noticed)... sometimes having to do with content/narrative/dialogue and sometimes having to do with subtle things as in how certain shots are composed.

On Friday night while watching BBM the idea of certain shots being composed in similar ways really struck me.  Particularly in the examples on Brokeback where Jack is either standing to the right in the frame (or is entering into the frame from the right) and Ennis is either mounting his horse on the left/already sitting on his horse to the left or riding away to the left.  The three examples of this that I can think of are (1) at the time of the job switch... Ennis is with his horse to the left and Jack approaches from the right and says "you won't get much sleep..." (2) the morning after TS1 (3) the moment immediately following the dozy embrace.

I think the interesting point to bear in mind is that there are patterns... of many kinds and varieties.  And, sometimes different patterns overlap or intertwine.  And, none of this is absolutely precise all the time.  There are some examples that seem pretty precise (like the trucks driving horizontally across the screen/landscape at the beginning at end, but in opposite directions... and like the paper bags at the beginning and at the end) but precision is certainly not the rule.



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 17, 2008, 12:55:07 pm
Remember, we catalogued all the Ennis/Jack stage right, stage left back in September of 06?? Here's a link to it, and I don't think we made any definitive conclusions:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg83363.html#msg83363 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg83363.html#msg83363)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 17, 2008, 12:59:03 pm
Remember, we catalogued all the Ennis/Jack stage right, stage left back in September of 06?? Here's a link to it, and I don't think we made any definitive conclusions:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg83363.html#msg83363 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg83363.html#msg83363)


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  I guess I'd forgotten that thread Sister Mod!  After all that time, the left/right trend is definitely still something that jumps out when thinking about patterns while watching BBM.  I don't know that this has any huge or particular symbolic meaning (or a singular meaning)... but it just seems to suggest how carefully and deliberately composed BBM is in general as a film.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on March 17, 2008, 05:46:35 pm
Broke, a lot of us share that obsession. I know of one person who thinks it's a mirror, literally scene for scene. Personally, I don't think it's quite that symmetrical -- there are reflecting scenes that aren't in perfect opposite sequence, and little mini-mirrors thrown in here and there, to keep the pattern from being too neat.

But definitely there are matching reflected images, the most obvious being the opening scene with Ennis riding in a truck going in one direction at dawn, carrying a bag with two shirts, and the scene near the end of Ennis riding in a truck going in the opposite direction at sunset, carrying a bag with two shirts. In fact, that one is SO obvious it almost seems like a deliberate suggestion to viewers to look for others.




agreed
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on March 17, 2008, 05:50:48 pm
I agree that the mirroring/symmetry/palindrome pattern isn't always completely neat and tidy.  But, there are certainly lots of recurring patterns (as we've all noticed)... sometimes having to do with content/narrative/dialogue and sometimes having to do with subtle things as in how certain shots are composed.

On Friday night while watching BBM the idea of certain shots being composed in similar ways really struck me.  Particularly in the examples on Brokeback where Jack is either standing to the right in the frame (or is entering into the frame from the right) and Ennis is either mounting his horse on the left/already sitting on his horse to the left or riding away to the left.  The three examples of this that I can think of are (1) at the time of the job switch... Ennis is with his horse to the left and Jack approaches from the right and says "you won't get much sleep..." (2) the morning after TS1 (3) the moment immediately following the dozy embrace.

I think the interesting point to bear in mind is that there are patterns... of many kinds and varieties.  And, sometimes different patterns overlap or intertwine.  And, none of this is absolutely precise all the time.  There are some examples that seem pretty precise (like the trucks driving horizontally across the screen/landscape at the beginning at end, but in opposite directions... and like the paper bags at the beginning and at the end) but precision is certainly not the rule.




agreed, the palindrome pattern is not neat and clinically exact, but it is so apparent that clearly it was done deliberately to give the film a structure of parallels. The film is guiding us to think in terms of the twin lives and how they interact and repeat. I personally believe that the palindrome effect is one of the subliminal reasons why the film has such a deep impact, certainly I have recognized that this is responsible for much of the film's effect on me.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 07, 2008, 08:44:15 pm

I was looking at stills from the bar scene today and the cigarette in the ashtray between J & E all of a sudden really struck me.  It's placed so carefully!

I love it. 8)

(http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/4688419-f79.jpg%22%20border=%220)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Lynne on June 07, 2008, 11:19:10 pm
I love this thread!

:)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on June 08, 2008, 04:53:04 am
I was looking at stills from the bar scene today and the cigarette in the ashtray between J & E all of a sudden really struck me.  It's placed so carefully!

I love it. 8)

(http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/4688419-f79.jpg%22%20border=%220)



Never noticed that before.....and now I have, makes me wonder IF either one of them would really have sat their ciggie in the ashtray. I am a smoker, and if I were sitting at a bar I would hold the cigarette and just use the ashtray to flick the ash, and butt it out when I had finished it, but I doubt if I would sit it in the ashtray like that. Would be interested to know if any other smokers on here would either.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 08, 2008, 04:22:02 pm
Never noticed that before.....and now I have, makes me wonder IF either one of them would really have sat their ciggie in the ashtray. I am a smoker, and if I were sitting at a bar I would hold the cigarette and just use the ashtray to flick the ash, and butt it out when I had finished it, but I doubt if I would sit it in the ashtray like that. Would be interested to know if any other smokers on here would either.



That's an interesting point.  I'm not a smoker, but I can see why it would be unappealing to rest a cigarette on a public ashtray.  I'd have to watch the scene in motion again to see exactly how the dynamics of the motions regarding the cigarettes work.  Previously the motions of the boys' fingers on the beer bottles have been noted as very choreographed.  And, since Ennis's request to borrow Jack's lighter has always been seen as significant... the cigarettes themselves might be worth considering more carefully.

I think the fact that it's a fresh cigarette is important... and probably was supplied by Jack.  I think the positioning of it... pointing in between J & E is also one of the key things here.

The suggestiveness of the cigarette reminds me of at least a couple other points in the film... including the close-up shot of Jack with a cig in his mouth with Ennis bathing in the background.  And, then of course the famous use of cigarettes in the Randall scene.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/4694346-711.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/4694346-711)



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on June 08, 2008, 09:26:58 pm
Never noticed that before.....and now I have, makes me wonder IF either one of them would really have sat their ciggie in the ashtray. I am a smoker, and if I were sitting at a bar I would hold the cigarette and just use the ashtray to flick the ash, and butt it out when I had finished it, but I doubt if I would sit it in the ashtray like that. Would be interested to know if any other smokers on here would either.

Wel spotted.I am a smoker (oops) and would never leave  a cigarette like that.Mainly because I would just end up with smoke in my eyes,but also becuase it is a tactile thing as well.I sit and twiddle.Anytime I have given up eg when pregnant, I used to twiddle a pen instead. All smokers I know hang onto their cigarettes.
It is interesting too, that asking for a light is a classic pick up tactic.I even had it used on me about a month ago.I was so pleased,pathetic I know,but such little things can make a girls day!!!!!


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Gabreya on August 12, 2008, 07:41:30 pm
I loved it when the second tent scene happened, Jack had gently put Ennis's hat to the side and caressed his cheek before he tenderly kissed him. I will always love their first kiss. It so hot yet sweet. Even after their lips parted for a second where there was a tiny bit of saliva line in between them. :-*
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on August 12, 2008, 08:03:58 pm
Yes that first kiss in TS2 is so tender, just after Jack had said its all right and with the kiss, Jack was assuring Ennis that THIS  was all right.

It  showed Ennis that what was going on between them was something special, something tender and gentle and was not just going to be a wam bang thank you,  like the night before.Jack was showing Ennis that there were genuine feelings between them, something very intimate and personal. Ennis's response to the kiss showed Jack, that he was feeling the same way.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Gabreya on August 12, 2008, 10:26:26 pm
Yes that first kiss in TS2 is so tender, just after Jack had said its all right and with the kiss, Jack was assuring Ennis that THIS  was all right.

It  showed Ennis that what was going on between them was something special, something tender and gentle and was not just going to be a wam bang thank you,  like the night before.Jack was showing Ennis that there were genuine feelings between them, something very intimate and personal. Ennis's response to the kiss showed Jack, that he was feeling the same way.



The scene was just soothing, too. The two seemed comfy. Especially when the scene started, Ennis was sitting outside near the fire and kept glancing over at the tent. He couldn't resist so he got up and slowly walked over with his hat in hand.
It was almost as if he was 'surrending' himself to Jack, but in a cozy way.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on August 12, 2008, 10:35:23 pm
The scene was just soothing, too. The two seemed comfy. Especially when the scene started, Ennis was sitting outside near the fire and kept glancing over at the tent. He couldn't resist so he got up and slowly walked over with his hat in hand.
It was almost as if he was 'surrending' himself to Jack, but in a cozy way.

Now, thats the word i was trying to find......surrendering......oh yes, describes perfectly the entire TS2.....
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: rlh03 on August 13, 2008, 09:01:20 am
katie77 - I agree wih your 'surrendering' comment, but I kind of thought it went a little bit further, that 'surrendering' for Ennis also meant to his needs also, being wanted, as well as wanting intimacy missing so much in his life to this point.  Your thoughts?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Gabreya on August 13, 2008, 03:58:23 pm
katie77 - I agree wih your 'surrendering' comment, but I kind of thought it went a little bit further, that 'surrendering' for Ennis also meant to his needs also, being wanted, as well as wanting intimacy missing so much in his life to this point.  Your thoughts?

I agree, rlh03 and Katie. Ennis wanted to feel loved and wanted. And he knew that Jack REALLY adored him, otherwise why why did Jack started to kiss him that moment when he was in the tent and the night before, supposedly? It was clear that they both wanted longing love from eachother.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on August 13, 2008, 05:59:17 pm
Oh yes......they were both starved for love and affection, and just being needed by someone.

They both felt they got all this from each other, theres no doubt about that.

TS2 was the acceptance, that they could trust one another with those feelingsl.

It is such a beautiful scene.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on August 13, 2008, 06:39:31 pm
Oh yes......they were both starved for love and affection, and just being needed by someone.

They both felt they got all this from each other, theres no doubt about that.

TS2 was the acceptance, that they could trust one another with those feelingsl.

It is such a beautiful scene.

I have watched TS2 so many times, I love it, that and the motel scene.Re the latter, I don't think it is a lovable detail but it is subtle.The way we catch a glimpse of wedding ring.My heart sank when I saw that.Even having read the book it was so much more poignant in the film. It is there as a reminder that things are not all as they seem for our boys.
It is so subtle, yet such a smack in the face.They are  so at ease in each others arms, you can almost forget the peripherals, then there it is the ring.It brings me to tears every time, even just writing about it.
It has been menioned a hundred times over, but I love the fact that the shirts are switched, in the last scene, but most of all I love that it was Heath's idea to do it.
I hate the fact he is no longer here.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Gabreya on August 13, 2008, 06:45:13 pm
Yes. Plus, for us as the audience, it's almost as if we can FEEL their warmth for eachother as in love.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 02, 2008, 12:10:11 pm
Another subtle thing I love is the way they pick up where they left off no matter if it's been a day away from each other on the mountain, months since the last high-altitude get-together, or a whole effen four years!! One example is how Ennis tells Jack "I thought you was sore from that punch" and Jack knows exactly what he was talking about, even though it was a long four years ago!!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on October 03, 2008, 07:16:57 am
Another subtle thing I love is the way they pick up where they left off no matter if it's been a day away from each other on the mountain, months since the last high-altitude get-together, or a whole effen four years!! One example is how Ennis tells Jack "I thought you was sore from that punch" and Jack knows exactly what he was talking about, even though it was a long four years ago!!



Oh yes....I know what you mean.......

How much of a relief must it have been for them, to be able to talk about Brokeback, after it being bottled up inside them, all that time, never talking about it to anyone else. Like they were in the same dream or their own planet which no one else knew about and which they BOTH remember every   minute of.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Gabreya on October 05, 2008, 12:02:38 am
Yes. They shared their deep feelings about Brokeback after years of not seeing eachother and it was good that they've finally got the chance to tell how they felt about being together again.

And the TS2 is a very BEAUTIFUL scene. :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on November 25, 2008, 02:11:33 pm
I just came upon Brokeback on cable this morning, and I ended up watching it for the first time since Heath passed.  It was wonderful to be at home with Ennis and Jack again, and I must be getting better about grieving, because I was able to watch most of it without too many sharp pangs when I remembered that Heath is gone.

But here's a subtle detail that I never thought I would notice, and that even Ang himself never anticipated.  Watching the credits for Heath's name, I noticed that it appears for the first time just as Willie Nelson is singing "Every time I think of him, I just break down and cry."  Later, when the full list of credits appears, his name disappears from the screen just as Willie sings "I stole away and cried."

Will the sadness ever end?  I don't see how it ever really can.  :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 25, 2008, 02:46:08 pm
I just came upon Brokeback on cable this morning, and I ended up watching it for the first time since Heath passed.  It was wonderful to be at home with Ennis and Jack again, and I must be getting better about grieving, because I was able to watch most of it without too many sharp pangs when I remembered that Heath is gone.

But here's a subtle detail that I never thought I would notice, and that even Ang himself never anticipated.  Watching the credits for Heath's name, I noticed that it appears for the first time just as Willie Nelson is singing "Every time I think of him, I just break down and cry."  Later, when the full list of credits appears, his name disappears from the screen just as Willie sings "I stole away and cried."

Will the sadness ever end?  I don't see how it ever really can.  :'(

Awwww... Meryl, that's great.  I certainly never noticed those details about the music and the credits before.  I'm glad to hear that watching BBM felt like coming home for you.  That's really nice.

By the way, what channel was it on?  Was it a nice, unedited version?


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on November 25, 2008, 03:15:16 pm
Awwww... Meryl, that's great.  I certainly never noticed those details about the music and the credits before.  I'm glad to hear that watching BBM felt like coming home for you.  That's really nice.

By the way, what channel was it on?  Was it a nice, unedited version?

Thanks, Amanda.  It was on Cinemax, so it was unedited.  8)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 25, 2008, 07:53:05 pm


       I tear up every time I even see someone talking about him.  You gave me tears.   I did notice those things.  It
was after wathing the movie I was sitting in my seat, and when I got to that part is when I first started to cry....Of course
I was thinking of Jack then.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on November 25, 2008, 11:44:13 pm
((((((((Janice))))))))

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/merylmarie/Emoticons/bighug.gif)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 23, 2009, 11:00:51 pm
I'm going to take the liberty to post a lovable subtle detail observation that came about during this past Sunday's chat/viewing of BBM.  I give full credit to Lee for this one.

In the early bar scene with J & E, Lee noticed an interesting harmony between what J & E say regarding numbers.  According to the screenplay, Jack says the lightning storm killed 42 sheep and Ennis talks about 43 miles.  But, during the viewing I thought we heard Jack say 43 sheep which is echoed in Ennis's 43 miles more precisely.  Darn... now I may have to rewatch that scene to check and see if they changed the dialogue there ever so slightly from what's written in the screenplay.

Either way... the consecutive numbers or the identical numbers... there's a poetry there to the use of numbers (something we've noticed in other instances regarding numbers in BBM in past discussions).

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 24, 2009, 10:08:01 am

In the early bar scene with J & E, Lee noticed an interesting harmony between what J & E say regarding numbers.  According to the screenplay, Jack says the lightning storm killed 42 sheep and Ennis talks about 43 miles.  But, during the viewing I thought we heard Jack say 43 sheep which is echoed in Ennis's 43 miles more precisely.  Darn... now I may have to rewatch that scene to check and see if they changed the dialogue there ever so slightly from what's written in the screenplay.

Either way... the consecutive numbers or the identical numbers... there's a poetry there to the use of numbers (something we've noticed in other instances regarding numbers in BBM in past discussions)
I reviewed that scene, friend, and you and the screenplay were right. Jack says 42 sheep, and Ennis says 43 miles on his parents' last drive. However, that scene is very interesting for the interplay between odd and even numbers. I'm going to watch it again soon.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on February 24, 2009, 12:04:53 pm
Have we ever analyzed all the mentions of numbers to see if there's some pattern?

Pair a deuces
42 sheep
43 miles
$24 in a coffee can
40 winks
Four f'in years
17 (on the mailbox)
19 (can do what you want)

And so on. Lot of fours, but otherwise I don't see any obvious pattern. It would be interesting if something emerged, though.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on February 24, 2009, 12:21:58 pm
Expanding your list (new items bolded):

Pair a deuces
neither of them was 20
42 sheep
43 miles
$24 in a coffee can
40 winks
coming thru on the 24th
Four f'in years
2 girls
8 months old
17 (on the mailbox)
19 (can do what you want)
One's enough (postcard from L.Higgin's shop)


Have we ever analyzed all the mentions of numbers to see if there's some pattern?


And so on. Lot of fours, but otherwise I don't see any obvious pattern. It would be interesting if something emerged, though.


We have talked about the twos, the 8 and the 17. Lots and lots of twos on the short story.
About the 17 (recapitulating from back then): the 17 on the mailbox, 17 letters in Brokeback Mountain, 17 mountain ranges listed by Proulx in the short stoy.
The 8: uh, it's so long ago. They miss August twice, the eighth month. There was more to the eight, but I don't remember right now.

But we never found (searched for?) an overall pattern of all the numbers.
There are definitively a lot of numbers, especially measured by the short length of the story.

And you're right: the four shows up very often.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 24, 2009, 01:36:03 pm
Expanding your list (new items bolded):

Pair a deuces
neither of them was 20
42 sheep
43 miles
$24 in a coffee can
40 winks
coming thru on the 24th
Four f'in years
2 girls
8 months old
17 (on the mailbox)
19 (can do what you want)
One's enough (postcard from L.Higgin's shop)



We have talked about the twos, the 8 and the 17. Lots and lots of twos on the short story.
About the 17 (recapitulating from back then): the 17 on the mailbox, 17 letters in Brokeback Mountain, 17 mountain ranges listed by Proulx in the short stoy.
The 8: uh, it's so long ago. They miss August twice, the eighth month. There was more to the eight, but I don't remember right now.

But we never found (searched for?) an overall pattern of all the numbers.
There are definitively a lot of numbers, especially measured by the short length of the story.

And you're right: the four shows up very often.

I would add the number 3 to the list.  As in "3 hours to cook...".  I'm forgetting all the instances of the number 3, but I recall early on at imdb there was a whole thread (kind of comical) about the number 3.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on February 24, 2009, 07:00:10 pm
I would add the number 3 to the list.  As in "3 hours to cook...".  I'm forgetting all the instances of the number 3, but I recall early on at imdb there was a whole thread (kind of comical) about the number 3.

That was a thread I started, Amanda.  I'd been thinking about it when the discussion of numbers came up.  Although "three" is rarely spoken in the dialogue, there are an amazing number of threes in the book and movie.  Here's the link over in the IMDb Rewound forum:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,10834.0.html

 :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 24, 2009, 08:00:32 pm
That was a thread I started, Amanda.  I'd been thinking about it when the discussion of numbers came up.  Although "three" is rarely spoken in the dialogue, there are an amazing number of threes in the book and movie.  Here's the link over in the IMDb Rewound forum:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,10834.0.html


 :D :D :D
Very cool High Priestess!  Clearly that thread made an impression on me, but I confess I'd forgotten that you were the thread starter... so that certainly is neat!    And, I'm also happy to learn that it's archived here.

I love that so many important imdb threads have been preserved. :)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: nagsheadsea412 on February 26, 2009, 05:57:16 am
i love the way jack can express anything with those large blue eyes...and it seems more extreme on the big screen...and when those eyes are focused on Ennis, they're so sensitive and profound...not to mention, of course, sensual....
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Marge_Innavera on February 27, 2009, 12:02:34 pm
Have we ever analyzed all the mentions of numbers to see if there's some pattern?

Pair a deuces
42 sheep
43 miles
$24 in a coffee can
40 winks
Four f'in years
17 (on the mailbox)
19 (can do what you want)

Expanding your list (new items bolded):

Pair a deuces
neither of them was 20
42 sheep
43 miles
$24 in a coffee can
40 winks
coming thru on the 24th
Four f'in years
2 girls
8 months old
17 (on the mailbox)
19 (can do what you want)
One's enough (postcard from L.Higgin's shop)

This is OT I know, but has anybody else here used "Brokeback" lottery numbers? 
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 27, 2009, 01:04:32 pm
This is OT I know, but has anybody else here used "Brokeback" lottery numbers? 

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
That's a good suggestion Bud!

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on February 28, 2009, 10:26:36 am
It seems there are many references including the numbers in the 40's .I wonder if it is a deliberate link to the fact that Jack never made his 40th birthday, as in " he was only 39 years old" when he died, as said by Lureen on the phone to Ennis.

That however may be a leap too far but I always felt it was very poignant.In that he never reached the big 40 as it is often referred to.

Probably the 2 most cataclysmic events in Jack's life, one good, one horrendous, occurred in the last year of a decade.He met and fell in love with Ennis when he was 19 and he dies when he is 39. Yet separating those 2 odd numbers is 20 the number of years he knew Ennis. A very even number and in sharp contrast to the 19 and 39.

The 19,as in  the age of Alma junior when she tells Ennis she is getting married, surely has to be  reference to both Jack and Ennis.They were both 19 when they met, and Ennis had the opportunity to grab  what hopefully Alma is going to. A happy life with the one they love.He blew it so we hope in direct contrast Alma will grab it with both hands and run.

 It is very poignant that Ennis asks if Kurt loves her, not the other way round.

Jack loved Ennis and he now knows it, in the same way he can finally accept that he loved Jack. The contrast is stark.The melancholy of Ennis all the more apparant.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: brokeplex on February 28, 2009, 03:50:35 pm
This is OT I know, but has anybody else here used "Brokeback" lottery numbers? 

yes, I did, and won a tiny amount on the Texas Lottery. the numbers that interested me were:

24 - as in $24 in a coffee can
8 - as in 8 seconds
42 - as in 42 sheep
1000 - as in 1000 sheep
12 - as in noon at the bridge
14 - as in snow on Aug 14th, 14 hours of driving
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on May 01, 2009, 09:13:03 am
I find it very lovable that Ennis asks Jack if he's got a blanket on the night before the first tent scene. Ennis had started out being the camp tender and he would have known darn well where the blankets were kept but instead he asked Jack meekly for a blanket. In his drunkenness, he became almost like a baby and was inclined to follow Jack's orders later that night when he told him to get in the tent.  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on May 01, 2009, 06:41:59 pm
I love seeing Ennis season the food he is cooking as if it was fine dining, and maybe it was. It seems such a l;oving thing to do.

I love the fact that I am still here discussing the movie, right down to subtle details. Ilove the fact that I see only Ennis and not Heath.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 01, 2009, 11:41:32 pm
I find it very lovable that Ennis asks Jack if he's got a blanket on the night before the first tent scene. Ennis had started out being the camp tender and he would have known darn well where the blankets were kept but instead he asked Jack meekly for a blanket. In his drunkenness, he became almost like a baby and was inclined to follow Jack's orders later that night when he told him to get in the tent.  :)

This is an interesting observation about the blanket Lee.  You're right... he's asking about the blankets as if they really do belong to Jack, but he would have ben as much aware of their gear as Jack.

I love the fact that I see only Ennis and not Heath.

Yes, I agree with this too... and the same can be said for Jake/ Jack.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Katie77 on May 02, 2009, 02:35:58 am
I love seeing Ennis season the food he is cooking as if it was fine dining, and maybe it was. It seems such a l;oving thing to do.

I love the fact that I am still here discussing the movie, right down to subtle details. Ilove the fact that I see only Ennis and not Heath.

Yes, we do get so involved in other subjects on here, that we are spending less and less time talking about the movie. But thats not because we dont think about it, I guess its because most things have all ready been said.

And now, Im just reading about the blanket and Ennis seasoning the food, and I have a little smile to myself about those subtle details, and I'm sitting here now, smiling about our two boys and their little habits in the movie.

Actually having a giggle now, about Ennis shaking the salt and pepper, like he wa a chef in a bloody high class restaurant. You know I think I have always thought that, watching that scene, but didn't realize it, until you wrote about it.

I miss the boys, cause I havent watched the movie for quite a while. I think i will pay them a little visit, real soon.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Monika on May 02, 2009, 08:53:19 am
In the road work scene; the other man has his shirt open, but to me itīs a nice detail that Ennis doesnīt even though the heat almost calls for it. It works so well with the theme of Ennis not being open to others, but always keeping everything locked up inside.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: fernly on May 02, 2009, 08:59:47 am
Very interesting posts, friends, so nice to see this thread active :D

It seems there are many references including the numbers in the 40's .I wonder if it is a deliberate link to the fact that Jack never made his 40th birthday, as in " he was only 39 years old" when he died, as said by Lureen on the phone to Ennis.

That however may be a leap too far but I always felt it was very poignant.In that he never reached the big 40 as it is often referred to.

Probably the 2 most cataclysmic events in Jack's life, one good, one horrendous, occurred in the last year of a decade.He met and fell in love with Ennis when he was 19 and he dies when he is 39. Yet separating those 2 odd numbers is 20 the number of years he knew Ennis. A very even number and in sharp contrast to the 19 and 39.

The 19,as in  the age of Alma junior when she tells Ennis she is getting married, surely has to be  reference to both Jack and Ennis.They were both 19 when they met, and Ennis had the opportunity to grab  what hopefully Alma is going to. A happy life with the one they love.He blew it so we hope in direct contrast Alma will grab it with both hands and run.

 It is very poignant that Ennis asks if Kurt loves her, not the other way round.

Jack loved Ennis and he now knows it, in the same way he can finally accept that he loved Jack. The contrast is stark.The melancholy of Ennis all the more apparant.


to pick up on just one of your points above, Fiona, about cataclysmic events in the last year of decades...it was that way for Ennis, too - meeting Jack when he was 19, losing him when he was probably 39, too, and being taken to that ditch to see Earl's murdered body, when he was a little boy of 9.

And, in the story at least, Ennis' divorce, and the awful post-divorce scene when he rejects Jack and Jack heads to Mexico in despair, occurred "...when Alma Jr. was nine..."  Alma would have turned nine in 1973, when Jack and Ennis were both 29.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on May 02, 2009, 05:49:40 pm
Yes, we do get so involved in other subjects on here, that we are spending less and less time talking about the movie. But thats not because we dont think about it, I guess its because most things have all ready been said.

And now, Im just reading about the blanket and Ennis seasoning the food, and I have a little smile to myself about those subtle details, and I'm sitting here now, smiling about our two boys and their little habits in the movie.

Actually having a giggle now, about Ennis shaking the salt and pepper, like he wa a chef in a bloody high class restaurant. You know I think I have always thought that, watching that scene, but didn't realize it, until you wrote about it.

I miss the boys, cause I havent watched the movie for quite a while. I think i will pay them a little visit, real soon.

I smiled too at the condiment/seasoning scene. It is so cute and I had forgotten how much I love talking about the boys.I too must pay them a visit real soon.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on May 03, 2009, 10:57:08 pm
It seems like at least once a week Jack and/or Ennis visits me in a dream and I wake with a feeling of joy or release, sometimes the sheets are wet (just a hot flash though) sometimes the pillow.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on May 03, 2009, 11:43:40 pm
It seems like at least once a week Jack and/or Ennis visits me in a dream and I wake with a feeling of joy or release, sometimes the sheets are wet (just a hot flash though) sometimes the pillow.

I have only ever had Ennis visit me, sometimes it seems so real that when I wake up, it takes me a while to snap back into reality.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 04, 2009, 12:36:39 am

I don't recall ever having a dream about Brokeback Mountain.  If I have, I really don't remember at this point.  Which is kind of a surprising thing given how much I've thought about that movie over the past several years. 

I do, however, dream about bull riding *a lot*.  Which I kind of find hilarious.  I tend to dream about games frequently (I've been known to have dreams about playing computer solitaire and board games, etc.).  Not that bull riding is a game... but maybe something about the competitiveness of it makes me dream about it.  My dreams are always about strategic aspects of various events.  It's a bizarre phenomenon.
 ::)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Mikaela on June 07, 2009, 07:57:20 am
I bet (and hope) someone here can help me with the full name (in the actual movie) of the bar Ennis rushes to after the Thanksgiving fiasco? None of my screencaps of the scene show the bar's name. I think I know the name, but I need to be sure!

I'd very much appreciate it!  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Monika on June 07, 2009, 08:23:13 am
I bet (and hope) someone here can help me with the full name (in the actual movie) of the bar Ennis rushes to after the Thanksgiving fiasco? None of my screencaps of the scene show the bar's name. I think I know the name, but I need to be sure!

I'd very much appreciate it!  :)


Black & Blue Eagle is what is says above the door

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Mikaela on June 07, 2009, 08:55:31 am
Thank you. That's what I thought it was. But the more I thought about it, the stranger I thought that name was.

Guess that's one of the subtle details then; - Ennis gets beaten black and blue to complement that Black and Blue Eagle?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: belbbmfan on June 07, 2009, 02:51:29 pm
Thank you. That's what I thought it was. But the more I thought about it, the stranger I thought that name was.

Guess that's one of the subtle details then; - Ennis gets beaten black and blue to complement that Black and Blue Eagle?

I never thought of the name of the bar being strange. But you're right Mikaela. Maybe 'Black and Blue Eagle' is a more common name for a bar in the west. Who knows?

And you're right with your observation about the fight. I makes you wonder whether the name of the bar is a coincidence or not? Somehow I don't think so.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on June 07, 2009, 03:27:30 pm
And you're right with your observation about the fight. I makes you wonder whether the name of the bar is a coincidence or not? Somehow I don't think so.


Since the Black and Blue Eagle bar comes directly from AP, I'd bet something on the side of "no coincidence".

The sentence from the short story:

"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left."


- being beaten black and blue
- the eagle feather in Jack's hat


More referrences to flying/wings/creatures with wings:
- ministering angel, wings folded
- only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back (paraphrasing)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on June 07, 2009, 08:23:42 pm
One thing has always puzzled me,the absence of an eagle feather in Jack's hat in the film. In the S.S the feather is mentioned almost as an indication of Jack's shooting prowess, "he had shot an eagle, he said"
In the film the opposite seems true, Jack is incapable of shooting anything.
Back to the S.S again and in the motel scene, Ennis is descibed as "spreadeagled" after sex. As always there seems so many tie ins. Not forgetting in the S.S Jack tells Ennis he has "just shot my airplane out a the sky"
So many references to flying in both the film and story.
Hmm may have to go and ponder some more.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 07, 2009, 09:19:40 pm
This may help: read "On buckets, eagles, impatience and..." (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0/all.html)

and this is where the eagle/horse analogy is first mentioned:

 http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg12789.html#msg12789 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg12789.html#msg12789)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on June 08, 2009, 10:50:47 am
This may help: read "On buckets, eagles, impatience and..." (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0/all.html)

and this is where the eagle/horse analogy is first mentioned:

 http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg12789.html#msg12789 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.msg12789.html#msg12789)

Thanks for that, I am amazed that after all this time I still find new things to ponder. It has become as much of a classic for me as Shakespesre, word and symbolism endlessly scrutinised and analysed.
The bucket analogies were particularly interesting, but then another question started to form,to kick the bucket is to die, and I am trying to decide whether the bucket floating away is symbolic of their relationship slowly slipping away, or if it also is a warning of the demise of Jack. Either way it is terribly sad.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 09, 2009, 09:38:30 am
Another subtle detail that I love is the sight of Jack's face sleeping peacefully in the red dawn at the beginning of the day after the FNIT, befoore the camera pans to Ennis waking and sitting up. I'm so glad Lee included that. Proulx, of course, is all business in that scene: "Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and Jack butted against him;"
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: optom3 on June 09, 2009, 06:24:02 pm
I am sure I have mentioned this before but I love the last time we ever see the boys in a tent.They are asleep and Ennis has his arm protectively around Jack. How ironic that he so often seemed to want to protect Jack and look after him. So many little touches that we do for someone we care for,seasoning his food, trying to order soup,bringing the horses to one of their fishing trips.
Yet  in spite of his determination to protect Jack, he could not save him from his fate. The final tent scene cuts me so badly, as we know after the first viewing, what will be the final outcome.
How often do we act from the best of intentions and yet those very actions designed to protect our loved ones, can ultimately be their undoing. That can be a pretty heavy burden to shoulder. What a lot of guilt some of us have to carry around for what sometimes seems like a life sentence. Well c'est la vie, you can't wind back the hands of time. So you just have to bear it.
OT slightly, but I will tell all my kids, if you find love no matter when and where, be brave and grab it with both hands. You may not get the chance again.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 03, 2009, 04:40:11 pm
Maybe Ennis was TOO protective of Jack; Jack complained about being kept on a "short leash" and you can't keep birds of the air on a leash, especially those capable of driving 14 hours if they have a craving to see you.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: tango on December 03, 2009, 05:29:05 pm
I think Jack was protective of Ennis too.  Until their final meeting, Jack never tells Ennis about Mexico though he's being going for years, nor does he tell him about his rancher "friend" down in Texas. He knows both those things would devastate Ennis and wants to protect him.  I think the short leash comment refers to how Ennis gives just enough of himself, time, sex, affection to keep Jack hoping and coming back for more and Jack realizes it.

I'm reminded of a line in a song -  "that's just the price you pay for the chains you refuse". Sometimes people refuse comittment or offers of love because they don't want to be tied down or are afraid, etc, thinking another option is preferable. And in the end, they still pay a price. Sometimes even a bigger price as in the case of Ennis. Every choice has consequences.

I think men express love in different ways so the small things they did for each other isn't unusual.  I think it was consistent with their personalities, time period and financial situations.  Men think practical things and actions are declarations of love. My husband interprets spending hours doing yardwork as a sign that he loves his family. His thinking is, if he didn't love us, he wouldn't find it important for us to live in an attractive house, nor spend the time doing the yardwork.  Like once how I said, that's a pretty watch when reading a magazine and he asked to see and then remembered and bought it for me for Christmas. So while I might find an "I love You" a more direct way of communicating how he feels, I take the declarations wherever I can find them.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: inwooder on December 30, 2009, 11:11:49 pm
Hi Everyone, sorta new here. Just saw BBM for the FIRST time two months ago. Several questions if you could help me answer:

What did Ang mean by the following "back ground clips"? I am assuming they all have some meaning and were choosen for a reason-

1. When Ennis and Alma are at the drive through-why did Ang pick that movie and that scene? What did it mean?

2. When Ennis and Alma are watching TV with the girls, why did Ang pick that scene to show playing on the TV? And what did it mean?

3. Next scene-(this is right after we see Jack ask Lureen where is blue parka is) Ennis is getting ready to go fishing with Jack, he is packing his bag in his bedroom and there is, off camera, a man talking. He is describing someone, "construction worker...etc" What is that supposed to mean or symbolize?

I think thats all. I apologize if these were all discussed at length some time ago.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 31, 2009, 03:13:12 pm
Hi, inwooder, and welcome! Thanks for reviving this thread! These are hard questions, so I will tackle them one by one, starting with the third one. As Ennis is packing to meet Jack for a "fishing" trip, we hear the radio in the background, where a joke is being told about a big guy, a construction worker, and a little guy. There seems to be a subtext to the joke, hidden meanings that are not expressed but only implied. My feeling is that this background dialogue was chosen for two reasons: it shows the homophobia that is just under the surface in daily life of people in those times (as well as now) and, secondly, it hints at the duplicity of Ennis, the fact that he was leading a double life.

Another thing that happens in this scene is that Ennis gropes in the kitchen cupboard to get his canister (what does he keep in it, coffee or whiskey?) and then heads out the door. Alma, without looking up, says, "Forgettin something?" He has almost left without his fishing creel and net! Later we find out that Alma, through stealthy means, has found out that Ennis doesn't use his fishing gear on these trips. She has ceased to care, though, and casually reads a newspaper. Maybe she is reading the grocery specials for the week that Monroe is offering! It's a good transition scene that illustrates the "slow corrosion" between Alma and Ennis, and the enduring spark between Ennis and Jack.

3. Next scene-(this is right after we see Jack ask Lureen where is blue parka is) Ennis is getting ready to go fishing with Jack, he is packing his bag in his bedroom and there is, off camera, a man talking. He is describing someone, "construction worker...etc" What is that supposed to mean or symbolize?
I think thats all. I apologize if these were all discussed at length some time ago.
They may have been discussed before, but never resolved certainly. Such is the nature of Ang Lee's work, always leaving that "open space" between what we know and what we believe!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: inwooder on December 31, 2009, 03:35:21 pm
Hey Front Ranger,

Thanks for responding. I have posted this/these questions on others sites, but with no response. I agree with what you've described and why. It seems Ang wanted us to see the constant fear that Ennis lived under. He is going to see Jack while having to listen to a homophobic joke on the radio/tv. Hope you can make heads or tails of the other two examples!



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: inwooder on December 31, 2009, 03:37:58 pm
And another one!

Jack says "Shit" three times in the beginning of the movie, then, when Jack is ministering to the cut on Ennis' head, Ennis says "shit" under his breath. And, I think, Jack doesn't really say it anymore and Ennis is the one who says it for the rest of the movie. What do y'all make of that?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 31, 2009, 04:07:17 pm
That's very interesting about the "shit" inwooder! I had not noticed that. There are some corrolaries, though. One is that Ennis is facing a certain way during the early scenes of the movie, and then the opposite way (most of the time) during the rest of the movie. Some of us theorized that Jack and Ennis sort of traded roles halfway through their relationship, not just the sheep herder/camp tender roles.

I wonder if there's something that Ennis does or says during the early part of the movie that he trades with Jack. Jack certainly does become more close-mouthed during the latter part of the movie.

Since Ang Lee is a follower of the Tao te Ching, this is a logical expression of the concept that everything contains its opposite and that complementary aspects of nature are in balance and in flux.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on December 31, 2009, 04:42:30 pm
Hi and welcome to BetterMost, inwood.  8)

Please check out this great subforum for extensive writings on the symbolism in Brokeback gleaned from our early discussions on IMDb.  Some of your questions may be answered there.  I've included a link to one particular discussion about your first question.

IMDb Remarkable Writings Rewound: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/board,61.0.html

1. When Ennis and Alma are at the drive through-why did Ang pick that movie and that scene? What did it mean?

Check out this thread by Casey Cornelius:  http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,13719.msg0.html#new

The Open Forum also has 18 pages of topics discussing the movie.  You'll find answers here to questions you never thought you had.  Enjoy the exploration!  :)

Meryl
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 31, 2009, 04:49:09 pm
Inwooder, I'm researching those two visuals, one seen at the drive-in and the other on television. But while I'm doing that, I'd like to address your comment:
Quote
What did Ang mean by the following "back ground clips"? I am assuming they all have some meaning and were chosen for a reason-
I agree with you that these scenes were chosen with a lot of thought. To give you an example of another small loveable detail, consider the snatches of harmonica playing we hear from Jack. As explained below by EDelMar (from earlier in this thread), these tiny bits of songs are actually clues to the plot and the personality of Jack:

Jack's harmonica, both times he plays, is positively a variant of "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Gustavo Santaolalla is the actual player, and using his own harmonica, in a recording studio.  (The "amateur" sound he's mimicking is actually quite hard to duplicate... but gives the flavor of someone not very good at playing harmonica.)

Open up the first harmonica sound bit (campfire scene).  It has 4 sections.  Here are the corresponding lyrics to those sections:
#1:  Heeeeeeee was a friend of miiiiiiiine.  He--- [cuts off here]
#2:  Heeeee--
#3:  Was a friend of mine.
#4:  [He] just kept on movin',

On the 2nd harmonica piece as they're going up the hill.  It has 5 sections back to back.
#1:  Heeee was a friend of miiiiiiiine.
#2:  [He] just kept on movin',
#3:  Heeee waas a frieeeend  (bad key...improvised)
#4:  Was a frieeeeend    (again bad key...improvised)
#5:  Was a friend of mine.

It's a contortion of the song really...again deliberately warped and twisted.  :)

"He Was a Friend of Mine" as we know it today is the collaborative work of 3 artists circa 1960: Bob Dylan, David Van Ronk and Eric von Schmidt.  Dylan once said he got it from Blind Arvella Gray, a street musician in Chicago, but that's probably not true.  WELL, he might have heard "Shorty George" being played by this musician.  (See below).  David Van Ronk stated at a concert once (right before playing the song), "I learned this song from Eric von Schmidt, who learned it from Dylan, who learned it from me".  Around 1980 the 3 artists mutually decided to split royalty monies for the song.

Dylan recorded his version (upon which the Willie Nelson version was based) in 1961.

The ORIGINAL version is Shorty George, a southeastern US african spiritual or something written by Smith Casey.  I have this recording; it's not readily available, and was recorded in 1939 for the US Library of Congress.

If you want to hear all 3 versions, come to Brokeback BBQ 2007 (http://www.brokeback2007.com) and I will have them there along with a large portion of the rest of the master soundtrack and early versions of stuff.

In the late 1960s the Grateful Dead played a song called "He Was A Friend of Mine" as well.  Different lyrics, and that was really just a PORTION of another song, by Mark Spolestra from 1965, "Just a Hand to Hold".  THIS SONG undoubtedly was inspired by "He Was a Friend of Mine" by Dylan/Van Ronk/von Schmidt because 1 year after Dylan recorded his version, Spolestra performed with him AND Van Ronk in New York City frequently.

  -Ennis

PS: Ossana and MacMurtry originally scheduled Jack's 2 harmonica pieces to be "Kaw-Liga" and "Bad Brahma Bull".  I have those too; come to the BBQ!!

Ang Lee certainly chose his audio and visuals for a definite reason!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 31, 2009, 07:04:52 pm

Check out this thread by Casey Cornelius:  http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,13719.msg0.html#new

Meryl

Meryl, thank you for pointing us to that illuminating thread by Casey Cornelius about the use of the Surf's Up movie clip!! It is very enlightening!

Did Casey ever discuss the use of the Olympic ice skating music in the argument at Thanksgiving scene between Ennis and Alma?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: inwooder on January 01, 2010, 03:43:30 pm


The Open Forum also has 18 pages of topics discussing the movie.  You'll find answers here to questions you never thought you had.  Enjoy the exploration!  :)

Meryl
[/quote]

Hi Meryl,

Thank you for the link. I have found, read, and now understand the drive in movie scene. I think its a strong statement that Ennis is now trying to do the "right" thing. Marry a woman and have a child. And society is telling him-through the movie- that what he wants to do is illegal. (be with Jack as reminded to us by Alma grabbing his hand and pulling it down to her belly)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on January 01, 2010, 03:57:28 pm
You're welcome, inwood.  Glad to be of help!  8)

Did Casey ever discuss the use of the Olympic ice skating music in the argument at Thanksgiving scene between Ennis and Alma?

It's quite possible, but I don't remember a specific thread where it might be.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: inwooder on January 01, 2010, 10:01:07 pm
Inwooder, I'm researching those two visuals, one seen at the drive-in and the other on television. But while I'm doing that, I'd like to address your comment:I agree with you that these scenes were chosen with a lot of thought. To give you an example of another small loveable detail, consider the snatches of harmonica playing we hear from Jack. As explained below by EDelMar (from earlier in this thread), these tiny bits of songs are actually clues to the plot and the personality of Jack:

Ang Lee certainly chose his audio and visuals for a definite reason!!

Thanks for pointing this out, I dont know if I would have ever realized that was the song he was playing. Kinda sad in that it forshadows his own death
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Lynne on March 01, 2010, 01:02:02 pm
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Feb 2 2006 01:07:33 )
...as a Texan who was graduated from none of the universities I mention, I can offer some possible insight about MacMurtry's inside jokes...

the line Texans don't drink coffee? is Alma's query to Ennis when Jack does not have time to come into the apartment as I remember it so actually means that it is very UN likely Texans don't drink coffee, and there is something fishy if you don't want him in here...everyone knows why...even Alma at that point...

as far as the "tea sippers" epithet--- graduates from University of Texas at Austin are called "tea sippers" because the school's hand sign is to fold down two middle fingers and thumb and to have index and little finger extended upwards--just like the European horns sign which has a negative, sexual reference (which is why President Bush and his wife were castigated in foreign press some months ago for doing it to show support for UT at the Thanksgiving parade, I think)----so the "horns" gesture ties in with UT's mascot the well-known Texas longhorn steer----the "tea sipper" comes, I think, from raising the little pinky like the stereotypical Britisher drinking tea, and conveniently forgetting the index finger is there also. Also, and this goes to the second insider joke MacMurtry might have played, UT Austin graduates are considered more "effeminent" when compared to their arch rivals from Texas Agricultural and Mechanical University===Texas A & M.
...

The above is a quote from IMDb Remarkable writings rewound related to Larry McMurtry's 'inside joke' :  "Texans don't drink coffee."  And the 'tea' inference that arises.

I have no idea if there is any relevance to this, but I like it.  Oil is called 'Texas tea' (at least in the Beverly Hillbillies song :P ).  If I stretch the point, to me it follows that oil has in some sense taken away two women who loved Ennis.  His sister married a roughneck and moved to Casper.  And Alma, Jr.'s fiancé works in the oil fields...

Poor Ennis.   :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 01, 2010, 01:32:49 pm
Very astute of you, Lynne! I'm starting to know way more about Texans than I ever wanted to!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Lynne on March 01, 2010, 01:39:02 pm
Very astute of you, Lynne! I'm starting to know way more about Texans than I ever wanted to!!

Isn't it both bizarre and beautiful that four years later, we can still think of things in ways we hadn't before??   :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: zephaniah on March 19, 2010, 04:02:33 pm
Ever notice that the first night they're separated on the mountain, in the series of shots with Jack and the sheep, Jack is looking down on Ennis's fire and all of the shots of that full moon night are blue - I've always thought of them as the "Jack's got the blues..." sequence.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 19, 2010, 04:15:09 pm
Welcome Zepahniah, and thanks for reminding us of those lovely scenes of Jack in the twilight up with the sheep. It's amazing how many new members of BetterMost like to post on this thread for the first time. Happy to see you here. Want a cup of coffee, don't you? Piece of cherry cake?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: zephaniah on April 23, 2010, 09:57:47 am
I don't hink I could eat no cake just now, but thanks.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Monika on April 23, 2010, 10:36:58 am
I don't hink I could eat no cake just now, but thanks.
but how about a cup of coffee?

Or are you from Texas?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 17, 2011, 12:41:53 am
Tonight I watched BBM with a non-Brokie - and it was the first time for me in about a year.  In the midst of the viewing, and in the course of explaining to my friend about how Ennis's protective instincts about the sheep may be transferred to Jack... it occurred to me that the woolly collar of Jack's coat may be significant.  So frequently, in the early scenes of BBM, we see Jack's face framed by the woolly collar of his green coat.  To me, this must be significant.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on July 17, 2011, 05:23:41 am
RE-posting a picture for Sonja; we talked about this in chat last night.

This is Ma Twist in her kitchen. You can see the cherry cake in the background.

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/Penthesilea09/BBM/609cd283.jpg)


Closeup of the cherry cake with oddly only one cherry in it:

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/Penthesilea09/BBM/8890f0fc.jpg)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on July 17, 2011, 05:40:11 am
Tonight I watched BBM with a non-Brokie - and it was the first time for me in about a year.  In the midst of the viewing, and in the course of explaining to my friend about how Ennis's protective instincts about the sheep may be transferred to Jack... it occurred to me that the woolly collar of Jack's coat may be significant.  So frequently, in the early scenes of BBM, we see Jack's face framed by the woolly collar of his green coat.  To me, this must be significant.




Yes. I think it links to the theme of Jack being the sacrificial lamb. Like the scene where we se him tending to the one lamb, plucking something out of its hoof (although that one also shows him as an experienced sheepherder).
And of course, the lamb ends up das in the end.  :(

If you wanted to take the symbolism even further, think of the shot where we see Ennis having a lamb in a sack tied to his saddle. He wants to keep the little lambie safe, and tucks it in for the purpose. Reminds me of how he wants to keep Jack hidden. A secret, to keep Jack (both of them, really) safe.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on July 17, 2011, 05:50:05 am
RE-posting a picture for Sonja; we talked about this in chat last night.

This is Ma Twist in her kitchen. You can see the cherry cake in the background.

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/Penthesilea09/BBM/609cd283.jpg)


Closeup of the cherry cake with oddly only one cherry in it:

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/Penthesilea09/BBM/8890f0fc.jpg)

Thanks, Chrissi!!

LOL, I've never noticed it before!

Uhm......but (insert blasphemy warning).....it doesn't look much like a cherry cake to me.... ::)

The texture seems wrong, and the shape. And it seems the cherry (if that's what it is) sort of hangs in the air, without being attached to the cake at all.

But, OTOH, what do I know about Cherry Cakes Of The American West?   ::) :laugh:

This specimen may be a typical example of the species.   8)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Monika on July 17, 2011, 05:56:41 am
Iīve never noticed the cake in the background either. I think I expected it to be brown because the only cherry cake Iīve ever eaten was a chocolate cherry cake (made by Lee, I believe).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on July 17, 2011, 06:20:37 am
Thanks, Chrissi!!

LOL, I've never noticed it before!

Uhm......but (insert blasphemy warning).....it doesn't look much like a cherry cake to me.... ::)

The texture seems wrong, and the shape. And it seems the cherry (if that's what it is) sort of hangs in the air, without being attached to the cake at all.

But, OTOH, what do I know about Cherry Cakes Of The American West?   ::) :laugh:

This specimen may be a typical example of the species.   8)


For explaining purposes, I'll re-post a pic of my cherry cake. Ma Twist's cherry cake looks just as mine, except that I have plenty of cherries in it. :laugh:
A yellowish, fair dough, then simply stir the cherries in.

(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/Penthesilea09/Familie/0fa79a91.jpg)


They sink in and are spread throughout the cake.
Re the shape of the cherry: the shape is not perfectly round since you have to take the stone out of it, so it's somewhat squeezed. And of course, the cake is cut right through the middle of the one cherry in the BBM pic.
Re the color: These artificially red looking cherries are called cocktail cherries. It's either that, or a very bright red breed of cherries. For example sour cherries are brighter than sweet cherries, and what I have are Schattenmorrellen (morello cherries), which are especially dark and sweet, with plenty flesh.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on July 17, 2011, 06:32:09 am
Iīve never noticed the cake in the background either. I think I expected it to be brown because the only cherry cake Iīve ever eaten was a chocolate cherry cake (made by Lee, I believe).


At Rodney's house, the evening before the Roundup 2008 officially began. :D
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 17, 2011, 09:20:14 am
Tonight I watched BBM with a non-Brokie - and it was the first time for me in about a year.  In the midst of the viewing, and in the course of explaining to my friend about how Ennis's protective instincts about the sheep may be transferred to Jack... it occurred to me that the woolly collar of Jack's coat may be significant.  So frequently, in the early scenes of BBM, we see Jack's face framed by the woolly collar of his green coat.  To me, this must be significant.

You're definitely onto something there, friend! Also, remember in the dozy embrace how Ennis stroked Jack's collar as he embraced him from behind? That's really a good subtle detail! And Jack was the one who didn't like the cold.  :'(

Thinking about the one cherry in the cake, to me it signifies Ennis's aloneness now that Jack is gone. In saying he will take a cup of coffee but can't eat no cake, Ennis is saying he will "stick with beans", with his bitter life now that the sweet life with Jack is gone.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on July 17, 2011, 02:31:12 pm
You're definitely onto something there, friend! Also, remember in the dozy embrace how Ennis stroked Jack's collar as he embraced him from behind? That's really a good subtle detail! And Jack was the one who didn't like the cold.  :'(

Thinking about the one cherry in the cake, to me it signifies Ennis's aloneness now that Jack is gone. In saying he will take a cup of coffee but can't eat no cake, Ennis is saying he will "stick with beans", with his bitter life now that the sweet life with Jack is gone.


I was going to mention Ennis stroking Jack's collar, too.  It's always been one of my favorite things about that scene.  8)

The cherry cake reminds me of a discussion we had about yin/yang symbols in the movie.  The one cherry is reminiscent of the symbol.

(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/merylmarie/Emoticons%20and%20Avatars/yingyang.jpg)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 17, 2011, 02:52:21 pm

Yes, I agree that the one cherry in the cake is like half of a yin and yang symbol.  Similar to the black and white barn door (?) that we see outside Jack's bedroom window, that appears to be an incomplete yin and yang symbol.

Meryl, do I recall correctly that the barn door observation came from you long ago?

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on July 17, 2011, 04:53:30 pm
Yes, I agree that the one cherry in the cake is like half of a yin and yang symbol.  Similar to the black and white barn door (?) that we see outside Jack's bedroom window, that appears to be an incomplete yin and yang symbol.

Meryl, do I recall correctly that the barn door observation came from you long ago?

Yes, I was amazed to notice it.  I don't think it was just an accident, because the camera lowers down along with Ennis as he sits to look out the window, and the barn door is framed perfectly in the window.  I wish I could remember the thread link for that discussion.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 17, 2011, 05:21:47 pm
I believe this is it:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1994.0/all.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1994.0/all.html)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Meryl on July 18, 2011, 12:21:03 am
I believe this is it:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1994.0/all.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1994.0/all.html)

Thanks, Lee!  It's good to read that again.  I also put back two photos that had disappeared along with my old image host.   8)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on July 18, 2011, 06:00:33 am
Yay, great you found it, Lee. :)
And Amanda remembered right, it was indeed Meryl.


When Amanda talked about Jack's lamb coat being significant, I thought of this immediately:


(http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/Penthesilea09/BBM/a15df0e4.jpg)

"Whadya mean? My jacket being sgnificant? How's that?"*



Seriously, somehow I had either forgotten, or never noticed, that Jack had two very similar lambswool jackets. The color is different, but the jackets are almost identical, especially the collars. The real collars, of course *g*


*Photo manip by Jimmy(gnash), and thanks to Chuckie for sending the pic to me. :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on November 24, 2011, 11:23:13 am
I think Jack was protective of Ennis too.  Until their final meeting, Jack never tells Ennis about Mexico though he's being going for years, nor does he tell him about his rancher "friend" down in Texas. He knows both those things would devastate Ennis and wants to protect him.  I think the short leash comment refers to how Ennis gives just enough of himself, time, sex, affection to keep Jack hoping and coming back for more and Jack realizes it.

I'm reminded of a line in a song -  "that's just the price you pay for the chains you refuse". Sometimes people refuse comittment or offers of love because they don't want to be tied down or are afraid, etc, thinking another option is preferable. And in the end, they still pay a price. Sometimes even a bigger price as in the case of Ennis. Every choice has consequences.

I still wonder why Jack complains that Ennis keeps him "on a short leash". Isn't that what he wanted, to be tied to Ennis and close to him?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on November 24, 2011, 12:48:01 pm
I still wonder why Jack complains that Ennis keeps him "on a short leash". Isn't that what he wanted, to be tied to Ennis and close to him?

I think at that point, he's frustrated. He wants to be tied to Ennis and close to him, but he has also grown to see they'll probably never achieve the sweet life. So failing that he'd like to branch out a little. But Ennis doesn't allow it -- either literally, because he disapproves of things like Mexico, or emotionally, because Jack can't quite commit to someone else while still holding out slim hopes for things working out with Ennis.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on December 01, 2011, 09:38:54 am
 Being on a leash to me implies being controlled by someone in an unpleasant way. Where their will overrides yours - or where the don't consider your desires a priority. Unless there's an implication of kinky fun (which there clearly isn't here)... I don't think it's a good thing or meant to imply a healthy, close relationship (which Jack really does want).
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: chowhound on December 01, 2011, 02:33:20 pm
I think the image of the leash also interconnects with the "reins" Ennis mentions when, at the end of their first reunion, he says "ain't no reins on this one". Paradoxically, however, it is Ennis who is always applying the "reins" either emotionally within himself or through his fears of how society will view them. This "reining in" he also extends to Jack through the "short leash" he keeps him on.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Brown Eyes on December 01, 2011, 08:24:24 pm
 Yes, I agree. Makes a lot of sense to me.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 01, 2011, 09:53:57 pm
You hit the proverbial nail on the head, chowhound!!  :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 06, 2012, 05:31:41 pm
First, I have to say I really, really love this site, and I allready read all is written "lovable subtle details".
Thanks a lot for this space, I love the movie as  never before.
My english is not good enough but, please, be sweet with me.

I want to say this ( and I hope someone please answer and talk with me )

1. I love Jackīs mom at the end taking Ennis hand while she is putting the shirts in to the paper bag....
2. I could swear that the words that Jack said in the first take, out of Aguirreīs office is FUCK YOU. We can only see the movement of his lips.... I think he said that because he is a little angry with Ennis cold attitude.
3. In the tent scene, the first one, why Jack hit on the floor? I think is pain? Or he wants Ennis stop? Then I see Jack put his hand on Ennis hand, and then he tries to take both hands, Ennis and yours with the other, and then, they fall. I understand there is not only pain, but when I hear Jack in real pain.

My favorite part, all, but specially when Ennis is so so so happy "saying a thankfull prayer"

Thanks a lot. I would like to explain in a better way all I can feel. :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on January 06, 2012, 05:36:49 pm
Hi Postcard, and welcome to BetterMost!

Glad you found us!

Want a cup a coffee, don't ya? Piece a cherry cake?  ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on January 06, 2012, 06:44:35 pm
First, I have to say I really, really love this site, and I allready read all is written "lovable subtle details".
Thanks a lot for this space, I love the movie as  never before.

 :) Of course we love to hear this!
You've found a good place. Welcome to BetterMost, Postcard! :)


Quote
My english is not good enough but, please, be sweet with me.

Your English is just fine. As long as we understand what you want to say, it's all good. And if we don't, we'll just ask back.
If your native language is by any chance German or Swedish, then there are people on this bord who can help you expressing what you want.
But as I see it, you manage just fine on your own! You really don't need to be shy about your language skills.


Quote
I want to say this ( and I hope someone please answer and talk with me )

2. I could swear that the words that Jack said in the first take, out of Aguirreīs office is FUCK YOU. We can only see the movement of his lips.... I think he said that because he is a little angry with Ennis cold attitude.

Do you mean on Jack's arrival? When he exits his truck?
I think he simply says "Fuck" and kicks the tire. I'm pretty sure he's frustrated about his truck, not Ennis in that moment.



Quote
3. In the tent scene, the first one, why Jack hit on the floor? I think is pain? Or he wants Ennis stop? Then I see Jack put his hand on Ennis hand, and then he tries to take both hands, Ennis and yours with the other, and then, they fall. I understand there is not only pain, but when I hear Jack in real pain.


My guess would be a mix of pleasure, sexual excitement and pain. ;D



Quote
My favorite part, all, but specially when Ennis is so so so happy "saying a thankfull prayer"


That's very sweet indeed. :)

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 06, 2012, 09:32:48 pm
Hi Postcard, and welcome to BetterMost!

Glad you found us!

Want a cup a coffee, don't ya? Piece a cherry cake?  ;)

Oh, yes! thanks!!!
By the way, does anybody think in this? Coffee pot is blue.... coffee inside es brown....
Thanks for answer me, I am so happy!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 06, 2012, 10:13:35 pm
Penthesilea! Thanks for your answer, thanks of all the things you say and explain to me.

About Jack, I am talking about the first scene, when he put his arms ( in a sexy way.... ) on his truck and look at Ennis, then he inclines his head.... in that moment you can see his lips, he said: fock you. At least that is I can see....

All about this movie is so moving, touching, Sometimes I feel I was the crazy one..... loking all the details, crying because Jacks is dead.... shaking, with them in the mountain, feeling what they feel in the tent, trying to image all the things I canīt see. Some days I have Ennis and Jack  faces in my mind, their eyes... the way they speak, some nights I even dream with them, and I am  just only a witness, speachless witness of all their hapiness and sadness. Sometimes I feel all is different after the movie in my life. Sometimes I wonder if I made a mistake like Ennis did, or if I will find again with someone a tender moment as Jack feels in the mountain, in front of the fire, with Ennis  behind him, holding him....
Ok.... I better stop right here..... I donīt want to be annoying.

THANKS
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 07, 2012, 12:33:30 am
Yes, postcard, Brokeback got us bad!! Welcome to this place where you can talk about Brokeback all you want. You have selected a great place to start. It seems like "Lovable Subtle Details" has enticed more Brokies to this site than any other!!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on January 07, 2012, 07:25:20 am
Postcard, we've all been through those mixed emotions after seeing Brokeback. That's what drew most of us here in the first place.

So you're among likeminded people here. Feel free to browse through the threads - there's lots of great stuff! - and take part in the discussions. You won't get judged here.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 07, 2012, 08:14:21 pm
THANKS A LOT ALL OF YOU!

 :) :) :)

ps. there is any book about what could be happen after or/and before the story?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on January 07, 2012, 08:36:45 pm
THANKS A LOT ALL OF YOU!

 :) :) :)

ps. there is any book about what could be happen after or/and before the story?

If you mean a book by Annie Proulx, there is only the short story the movie is built on. And it doesn't really tell us any more about Ennis and Jack than we already know from the movie.

But there's a whole universe of fan fiction out there. That's people who have written their own stories, sometimes pretty true to the original, sometimes diverting from it a great deal.

There's a board here on BetterMost where fan fiction is being discussed:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/board,13.0.html

There isn't really any discussion going on any more, but you may be interested in reading about the different fan fic stories anyway.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on January 08, 2012, 06:31:48 am
All about this movie is so moving, touching, Sometimes I feel I was the crazy one..... loking all the details, crying because Jacks is dead.... shaking, with them in the mountain, feeling what they feel in the tent, trying to image all the things I canīt see. Some days I have Ennis and Jack  faces in my mind, their eyes... the way they speak, some nights I even dream with them, and I am  just only a witness, speachless witness of all their hapiness and sadness. Sometimes I feel all is different after the movie in my life.


We've all been there. Every little thing you said, I experienced it on my own. Waking up with them on my mind, going to bed and the last thing I thought of was Brokeback Mountain, even dreaming of it at night. Feeling like a weirdo because of it, oh yes. It was such a relief to find other people who went through the very same thing.

When have you seen it for the first time?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 08, 2012, 11:23:03 am

Hi Penthesilea!
The firts time I saw, I mean, with all my senses was a few weeks before. I love movies. But I never paid attetion to this one, I donīt know why, both actors, specially Ledger, I love them. Maybe I was so stressed with my own life in that time, when the movie comes out.

But, what do you think about the firts take, when Jacks put his arms on his truck, look Ennis, then he whispers something... he just move his lips, I can swear he said, fuck you.

OH!!!  I love the scene after 4 years, both of them, the kiss, they in front of poor Alma, then in the motel....

And what about Jacks making laundry??? Washing Ennis shirt.... so tender!!!!

Annie Proulx writed a good story, but the movie was really really good!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 08, 2012, 11:26:28 am
If you mean a book by Annie Proulx, there is only the short story the movie is built on. And it doesn't really tell us any more about Ennis and Jack than we already know from the movie.

But there's a whole universe of fan fiction out there. That's people who have written their own stories, sometimes pretty true to the original, sometimes diverting from it a great deal.

There's a board here on BetterMost where fan fiction is being discussed:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/board,13.0.html

There isn't really any discussion going on any more, but you may be interested in reading about the different fan fic stories anyway.

Hi! Thanks for your answer, I try to read, but I canīt go in to the page where the story is.
I would like to write a story, but.... Am I a little crazy? How can I image to do something about a so beautyfull story like this???
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Monika on January 08, 2012, 11:39:25 am
I would like to write a story, but.... Am I a little crazy? How can I image to do something about a so beautyfull story like this???
Hi there. Donīt worry about it. Fan fiction is about paying tribute to a story we all love. The finished result is not whatīs important, but the process of writing and being creative.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on January 08, 2012, 12:01:49 pm
Hi! Thanks for your answer, I try to read, but I canīt go in to the page where the story is.
I would like to write a story, but.... Am I a little crazy? How can I image to do something about a so beautyfull story like this???

On that board I linked you to, there are a variety of threads discussing each a particular story. You will find links to the story in many of the posts. Unfortunately many of the links don't work any more, because the stories have since been taken down and/or people have closed their accounts.

Many of the stories were posted on Livejournal.com, and there's still lots of stories still up over there. I believe there's also still discussions going on about different stories.

I did a search for you, and found this. You can try for yourself to click around and see what you find. I may help to become a member over at LJ.

http://www.livejournal.com/search/?area=journals&q=Brokeback%20Mountain


No, I definitely don't think you are crazy. Numerous people transformed the emotional impact they felt from the movie into creativity: writing, art, music.

Many people who had never written one word of fiction before started to write stories.

I don't know what your native language is, but there are stories in German and Spanish too, and probably other languages as well.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 08, 2012, 12:29:08 pm
Hey!!! Look what I find! I donīt know if someone found it before.... It deleted scene from the movie looks at me so tender.... what do you think????

http://findingbrokeback.com/Deleted_Scenes/_Deleted_Scenes_Frame.html

 :o :o
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on January 08, 2012, 12:33:27 pm
Hey!!! Look what I find! I donīt know if someone found it before.... It deleted scene from the movie looks at me so tender.... what do you think????

http://findingbrokeback.com/Deleted_Scenes/_Deleted_Scenes_Frame.html

 :o :o

I'm glad you found Findingbrokeback!

It's a site with a multitude of information about BBM, interviews among others.

And yes, screen caps from deleted scenes.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: chowhound on January 08, 2012, 04:52:13 pm
THANKS A LOT ALL OF YOU!

 :) :) :)

ps. there is any book about what could be happen after or/and before the story?

Hi Postcard,
   As far as "after" is concerned, the revised version of the short story - as opposed to the initial version which was first published in the New Yorker magazine - opens with a description of Ennis, alone in his trailer, getting up around 5am. How much time has passed since Jack's death is unclear but as there is a reference to Ennis's "grey wedge of belly and pubic hair", clearly this is a much older Ennis. Nevertheless, Jack is still very much with him as, on waking, "he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream". And the two shirts are still very much with him.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 08, 2012, 09:03:12 pm
Hi Postcard,
   As far as "after" is concerned, the revised version of the short story - as opposed to the initial version which was first published in the New Yorker magazine - opens with a description of Ennis, alone in his trailer, getting up around 5am. How much time has passed since Jack's death is unclear but as there is a reference to Ennis's "grey wedge of belly and pubic hair", clearly this is a much older Ennis. Nevertheless, Jack is still very much with him as, on waking, "he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream". And the two shirts are still very much with him.
Yes! I know, I have that book, I read it..... All that you say is so true, as the book.
I was saying if someone, fan, writer could wirte the story, after or before, just using the imagination, inspired by this beautifull story.... I would like to write... I would like to image Jack and Ennis in their childhood.
Sorry if my english is a little bad, I would liketo write many other things in clear way....

Thanks all of you for your answers, make me so so so happy..... as I am getting a postcard!!!
 :) :) :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 08, 2012, 09:04:15 pm
On that board I linked you to, there are a variety of threads discussing each a particular story. You will find links to the story in many of the posts. Unfortunately many of the links don't work any more, because the stories have since been taken down and/or people have closed their accounts.

Many of the stories were posted on Livejournal.com, and there's still lots of stories still up over there. I believe there's also still discussions going on about different stories.

I did a search for you, and found this. You can try for yourself to click around and see what you find. I may help to become a member over at LJ.

http://www.livejournal.com/search/?area=journals&q=Brokeback%20Mountain


No, I definitely don't think you are crazy. Numerous people transformed the emotional impact they felt from the movie into creativity: writing, art, music.

Many people who had never written one word of fiction before started to write stories.

I don't know what your native language is, but there are stories in German and Spanish too, and probably other languages as well.

Would you please help me to found in spanish? ( I mean, the stories )
Thanks
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on January 09, 2012, 02:04:16 am
Hi Penthesilea!
The firts time I saw, I mean, with all my senses was a few weeks before. I love movies. But I never paid attetion to this one, I donīt know why, both actors, specially Ledger, I love them. Maybe I was so stressed with my own life in that time, when the movie comes out.


Only a few weeks ago - no wonder you have it bad. ;) :)
I remember those early times well.


Quote
But, what do you think about the firts take, when Jacks put his arms on his truck, look Ennis, then he whispers something... he just move his lips, I can swear he said, fuck you.


I took the DVD out and watched the scene a couple of times in slow-motion. After all this time, I think I've seen the whole movie in slow-motion. :laugh:
Back to Jack: I know what you mean; he gets out of the truck, kicks the tire, makes a step into Enni's direction, stops, leans back on his truck and stares at Ennis for another moment. Then, just as he looks down, his lips move.
Wellllll, I don't see a "Fuck" there, I think he only purses his lips. But then, if you're sure you see a "Fuck", then maybe it is really there. Who knows? Some things will forever stay unclear, respectively every viewer gets to decide for themselves.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on January 09, 2012, 06:17:31 pm
  Welcome to Bettermost Postcard.  We are always happy to have new people here.  If you want anything explained.  How to find things, and some of the old threads that might interest you.  Simply ask a mod.  I am sure that they would be most happy to aid you.
  We all love people who love our beautiful movie.  I just passed my six year anniversary on the sixth of January.  I watched it two times that day.  I watch the film every anniversary again.  Not to mention that I watched it at least one hundred times that first year.  It is still in my mind the most beautiful love story since Romeo and Juliet.  It has a lot of the same components as that story. 
  I think it marvelous that you can speak English so well.  I am very lax in that direction.  I speak English, and a passable spanish.  Not fluent, but can understand it fairly well.  I can follow the conversation, but not too good at it. 
  Feel free to post as much and as often as you like.  You are going to be among friends and family here.  Again WELCOME !!!

  There is a story that is still being written on Bettermost.  The writer is Louise VanHine.  The story is posted on the home page.  It is listed under The Runaway Deputy.  It has at least six books already written in this fiction.  you can access them by contacting Louise.  I am sure that she will give you the start of the story.  That way you can read the whole thing.  Be warned however.  It will take a long time for you to read it.  She has been very fruitful in her prose.  She is the Mod on that thread, and you may send her a personal message, in order to contact her.

                    louisev
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 09, 2012, 06:42:08 pm

  Welcome to Bettermost Postcard.  We are always happy to have new people here.  If you want anything explained.  How to find things, and some of the old threads that might interest you.  Simply ask a mod.  I am sure that they would be most happy to aid you.
  We all love people who love our beautiful movie.  I just passed my six year anniversary on the sixth of January.  I watched it two times that day.  I watch the film every anniversary again.  Not to mention that I watched it at least one hundred times that first year.  It is still in my mind the most beautiful love story since Romeo and Juliet.  It has a lot of the same components as that story.  
  I think it marvelous that you can speak English so well.  I am very lax in that direction.  I speak English, and a passable spanish.  Not fluent, but can understand it fairly well.  I can follow the conversation, but not too good at it.  
  Feel free to post as much and as often as you like.  You are going to be among friends and family here.  Again WELCOME !!!

  There is a story that is still being written on Bettermost.  The writer is Louise VanHine.  The story is posted on the home page.  It is listed under

Thanks a lot! I feel so happy, gratefull ! Yes, the people in this place is so friendly and they really love to talk about this beautifull movie.

You can all count on me.
Tell me, in which day is the anniversary?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 10, 2012, 08:03:08 pm
There are many moments I love in this movie....

1. When Jack dances with Lauren the first time.... the way he looks at her, and at the end to this scene, it seems like she is wainting for a kiss, and he looks some other place.... then, I figure he is thinking in Ennis... and also the lyrics of the song are beautifull and explains in many ways Jackīs situaction without Ennis. It is like he was singing the song to Ennis.

2. When Ennis was waiting for Jack, drinking beers, so nerveous, so excited, looking by the window.... smoking... If I were Alma, I will ask him, why are you so nerveous, what is going on? Maybe he was thinking "Jack is not comming... Jack fucking Twist..." So when Jack appears, that nick name is the first thing Ennis says to Jack... But of course in a very lovely way.

3. I really love the way Jack is always wearing nice and new clothes... specially that day when he was looking for his blue parka... always blue, as his eyes. In that "date", there is the delete scene when Jack gives to Ennis a very nice and expensive rifle... I would really like to see that.

Do you like to say something?

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: KittyKat on January 15, 2012, 07:29:18 pm
Has anyone brought up the reference of religion in the movie?

At Ennis and Alma's wedding as they say "lead us not into temptation..." the scene closes in on Ennis's face.

Then on the day Ennis gets thrown by the horse he also sees the sheep slaughtered by a coyote. I think he looks horrified not because the sheep died but because he was not down at the other campsite where he should have been looking after the sheep. Instead he was at the higher campsite with with Jack. If I'm not mistaken I think as Ennis looks at the dead sheep you here "lead us not into temptation..."

That night he gets back to the campsite and sits by the fire and thinks before he goes into the tent with Jack. I think he is saying to himself "who cares about religion and what people think you are supposed to do in life. I have a hunk of a man in a tent 10 feet away from me....I'm going for it! I'm not going to feel guilty anymore".

Then the symbolism with taking the hat off and Jack moving it to the side comes into play as taking down the barrier like you guys say above.

They also talk about how Ennis's mother was a Pentecostal and then one time Ennis says "I just sent up a prayer", etc.
Also the night Alma also wanted to go to a church picnic.

Any thoughts?




Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: postcard2011 on January 21, 2012, 08:40:03 pm
Hi! I think is Jackīs mother the pentecostal one.
Let me ask you something about the second tent scene, why do you think Jack went up with the sheeps? Did you noticed that, after the first tent scene, we can see Jack up in the mountain with the sheeps.
My english is no good, sorry.
Look, I think Ennis felt guilty with the sheep, but in the night, his feeling are so strong, maybe I think he was acting bad with jack.... then he goes to the tent and even say SORRY. I really love that scene.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: the_rat_wins on December 30, 2014, 05:10:31 am
Well, of all the many excellent threads I've read here in the past few days, this might just be my favorite so far, so I'm going to take Sason's v. kind invitation to not feel odd about chiming in, even on an old thread. Thank you again! :P

Here are a few of my favorite lovable subtle details, so far . . .


Whew! OK, glad I got that out. My next two are shorter, lol.


That's all for now . . . thank you guys for being so welcoming to a newbie who's here . . . um, nine years late. All your many threads of analysis and observation and fun continue to be a real pleasure to read!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: morrobay on December 30, 2014, 09:13:52 am
I absolutely love it when scenes are discussed again, so thank you!  It brings back the feelings that in some way have started to slip away over time, so reading about it makes it almost new again, or at least, brings it to the front of my mind to think about in detail again.

Not sure if you're new to the forum or to the movie itself, but I'm so glad you posted.

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 30, 2014, 01:29:59 pm
Isn't this a great thread? Thank you so much for reviving it, ratty!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on December 30, 2014, 05:50:44 pm
Brilliant analyses, the_rat_wins! It's been a long time since I've seen it or engaged in discussions of subtle details, but I'm not sure I've heard that "lonely-lonely" pointed out before. Thanks for contributing! Please feel free to continue doing so!

 :D


Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on January 06, 2015, 11:28:18 am
That's some very interesting observations, TRW!

Especially the first one gets me in the mood to watch the movie again and look out for those reactions.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: coffeedrinkintexan on January 06, 2015, 01:03:24 pm
There are a lot of threads I love here (you should see how many browser windows I currently have open!!) but this is by far my favorite. It has given me reason to watch this achingly devastatingly beautiful movie yet again.

Tell you what, I don't know what I'd do without Bettermost, because I am literally the only one I know personally that has been turned inside out by BBM.

Anyway, I had noticed a few of the LSDs already mentioned here, but there are a couple I haven't seen as yet in the thread:

1) The fact that BOTH Jack and Ennis end up dancing with women they may like but not love to "No One's Gonna Love You Like Me". I didn't realize this until I downloaded the soundtrack onto my phone and pulled an Ennis. "Hunh? Why's this one here twice?" Rewatched movie. Figured it out. Duh.

2) In the Twist Thanksgiving scene, Jack puts his hand on Lureen's back after he turns the TV off and heads back to the table. My husband and I do this kind of as a way of saying, "I've got your back on this one," and leads me to believe that they may not have been soul mates but Jack respected Lureen enough to back her up when came to parenting Bobby.

3) It's a very short scene, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE when Jack lets little Bobby drive the combine and yells, "No hands!" Both Jack and Ennis are almost literally suffocating under the weight each carries, but they really do make efforts to be present as fathers despite having both had poor relationships with their own fathers. Choosing in some small way to not be the kind of fathers they had

4) In one of the bar scenes with Cassie, it took me several viewings to realize that when the Allman Brothers' "Melissa" came on, it was just after Ennis was at the jukebox. Was this the song Ennis chose? Had he heard it before and had it resonated with him? It certainly describes him to a T. I'm quite sad that song didn't make it onto the soundtrack.

5) I know it's been mentioned that Ennis winks at Jack during the 'prayer of thanks' scene. I just love the relaxed, happy look on Ennis' face. We get to see it so rarely, it's such a treat when it's there. There are a couple other winks too, so well-timed I don't think they're coincidental. A second one when Ennis arrives at camp just after Jack's blue parka scene. As soon as he gets out of his truck it's there. They're so happy to see each other. I love it. And the third during their last night together when Jack says he'll probably get shot by Lureen or the husband, and Ennis says, "You probably deserve it." There's a little wink there.  I don't know what to make of that last wink.

Tons of subtlety and detail that just makes the story that much more heartbreaking. As has been mentioned in so many places here and elsewhere, Jake and Heath's ability (and to an extent Anne and Michelle's) to convey a whole story with the slightest change in expression - just brilliant. I love these actors, these characters, and this story.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: coffeedrinkintexan on January 06, 2015, 01:22:33 pm
I never thought of the name of the bar being strange. But you're right Mikaela. Maybe 'Black and Blue Eagle' is a more common name for a bar in the west. Who knows?

And you're right with your observation about the fight. I makes you wonder whether the name of the bar is a coincidence or not? Somehow I don't think so.
The bar name didn't strike me as particularly strange either.

But I do think, in addition to it fitting with Ennis getting the snot beaten out of him, the 'black and blue' is also a reference to Jack. Black Resistol, blue eyes and denim. And the eagle for good measure, since OS Jack showed off the eagle feather in his hat.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on January 06, 2015, 03:33:06 pm
There are a lot of threads I love here (you should see how many browser windows I currently have open!!) but this is by far my favorite. It has given me reason to watch this achingly devastatingly beautiful movie yet again.

Tell you what, I don't know what I'd do without Bettermost, because I am literally the only one I know personally that has been turned inside out by BBM.

Anyway, I had noticed a few of the LSDs already mentioned here, but there are a couple I haven't seen as yet in the thread:

1) The fact that BOTH Jack and Ennis end up dancing with women they may like but not love to "No One's Gonna Love You Like Me". I didn't realize this until I downloaded the soundtrack onto my phone and pulled an Ennis. "Hunh? Why's this one here twice?" Rewatched movie. Figured it out. Duh.

2) In the Twist Thanksgiving scene, Jack puts his hand on Lureen's back after he turns the TV off and heads back to the table. My husband and I do this kind of as a way of saying, "I've got your back on this one," and leads me to believe that they may not have been soul mates but Jack respected Lureen enough to back her up when came to parenting Bobby.

3) It's a very short scene, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE when Jack lets little Bobby drive the combine and yells, "No hands!" Both Jack and Ennis are almost literally suffocating under the weight each carries, but they really do make efforts to be present as fathers despite having both had poor relationships with their own fathers. Choosing in some small way to not be the kind of fathers they had

4) In one of the bar scenes with Cassie, it took me several viewings to realize that when the Allman Brothers' "Melissa" came on, it was just after Ennis was at the jukebox. Was this the song Ennis chose? Had he heard it before and had it resonated with him? It certainly describes him to a T. I'm quite sad that song didn't make it onto the soundtrack.

5) I know it's been mentioned that Ennis winks at Jack during the 'prayer of thanks' scene. I just love the relaxed, happy look on Ennis' face. We get to see it so rarely, it's such a treat when it's there. There are a couple other winks too, so well-timed I don't think they're coincidental. A second one when Ennis arrives at camp just after Jack's blue parka scene. As soon as he gets out of his truck it's there. They're so happy to see each other. I love it. And the third during their last night together when Jack says he'll probably get shot by Lureen or the husband, and Ennis says, "You probably deserve it." There's a little wink there.  I don't know what to make of that last wink.

Tons of subtlety and detail that just makes the story that much more heartbreaking. As has been mentioned in so many places here and elsewhere, Jake and Heath's ability (and to an extent Anne and Michelle's) to convey a whole story with the slightest change in expression - just brilliant. I love these actors, these characters, and this story.

Lots of interesting observations here, CDT.

The experience of being the only person you know to have this gut punch by BBM, you share with most of us.

We were all alone in the beginning, having nobody around us to share the experience or even talk about it with.

Since then many Brokies have met in RL and become friends, but in the beginning forums like BM was the only way to meet likeminded people.

Glad you found us. I don't know what I'd do if I hadn't found people to share it with when I was totally devastated at the peak of BBM fever.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: dontinterrupt on January 13, 2015, 07:32:54 pm
I totally understand that feeling of isolation and not knowing anyone who was just as affected by this story as I was. To add to my pain, I seem to have watched this movie 9 years too late (first viewing june 2014), after majority of its fandom kinda...dissipated.
As to lovable moments of the movie...I doubt this hasn't been mentioned yet, but it absolutely melts me to the bone when Ennis sends Jack these brief subtle looks of absolute and utter affection - e.g. just after "you'll run them sheep off again if you don't quiet down" and "well, you probably deserve it". It truly sums up everything Ennis feels, but can never say. At the same time, I love how these looks are being sent after some -also rare- carefree teasing on Ennis's part - uber cute

Another lovable part for me is the scene when Junior visits Ennis in his trailer, when you can clearly see a few times how much Ennis is still gripped by grief (his absent look out the window when Alma Jr says Kurt loves her) and when he makes hints only he understands (and probably wishes he could share with somebody someday), such as "when you got nothing, you don't need nothing" and "I guess you're 19, you can do whatever you want, is that right?" (am I the only one who sees more than just smalltalk in this question?)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: coffeedrinkintexan on January 13, 2015, 10:27:10 pm
I totally understand that feeling of isolation and not knowing anyone who was just as affected by this story as I was. To add to my pain, I seem to have watched this movie 9 years too late (first viewing june 2014), after majority of its fandom kinda...dissipated.
As to lovable moments of the movie...I doubt this hasn't been mentioned yet, but it absolutely melts me to the bone when Ennis sends Jack these brief subtle looks of absolute and utter affection - e.g. just after "you'll run them sheep off again if you don't quiet down" and "well, you probably deserve it". It truly sums up everything Ennis feels, but can never say. At the same time, I love how these looks are being sent after some -also rare- carefree teasing on Ennis's part - uber cute

Another lovable part for me is the scene when Junior visits Ennis in his trailer, when you can clearly see a few times how much Ennis is still gripped by grief (his absent look out the window when Alma Jr says Kurt loves her) and when he makes hints only he understands (and probably wishes he could share with somebody someday), such as "when you got nothing, you don't need nothing" and "I guess you're 19, you can do whatever you want, is that right?" (am I the only one who sees more than just smalltalk in this question?)
dontinterrupt, we are in the same boat. I saw it for the first time October 2014 and too many times to count since. Still just as gripping now as it was the first time. I'm with you, friend.

You are absolutely not the only one who sees more than smalltalk in that last scene between Ennis and Jr. It's absolutely clear (to me, anyway) that he's thinking of Jack when he asks Jr. if Kurt loves her. It's almost like you can hear him thinking as he's looking out the window, "Somebody loved me when I was 19, too...."

If only, as he said to his daughter, he could've done what he wanted at 19.....

Rips my heart to pieces every time.  :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: dontinterrupt on January 14, 2015, 04:59:51 pm
CDT, thanks for your reply, it's really great after reading this forum for months and seeing majority of its topics abandoned for years, to see that there are still some people out there! For me personally, BBM was the first movie that I just couldn't get enough of, couldn't stop watching, reading all about it. Hell, I live in the UK and I visited The Autry in LA just to see The Shirts live *freak alert* *totally worth it*
Sorry to go totally off topic though, I am new to this forum and still don't know exactly what I should say where :)
Another tiny lovable moment of the movie for me was during the reunion scene at the motel. Ennis says "Didn't think I'd hear from ya again" and Jack kind of exhales in his hair with an "aaah" sound. Did anyone notice it? Like a sigh of disbelief at the notion of not writing to Ennis eventually. As if he was saying "Yeah, like that could ever happen". I love it, I love everything about that scene. Though gotta say, I wish Ennis in that scene was more like the OS Ennis, actually SAYING something. In Jack's (OS) word's: "Come on, give me somethin to go on, this ain't no little thing that's happenin here!"
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: coffeedrinkintexan on January 14, 2015, 08:10:40 pm
Sorry to go totally off topic though, I am new to this forum and still don't know exactly what I should say where :)
Another tiny lovable moment of the movie for me was during the reunion scene at the motel. Ennis says "Didn't think I'd hear from ya again" and Jack kind of exhales in his hair with an "aaah" sound. Did anyone notice it? Like a sigh of disbelief at the notion of not writing to Ennis eventually. As if he was saying "Yeah, like that could ever happen". I love it, I love everything about that scene. Though gotta say, I wish Ennis in that scene was more like the OS Ennis, actually SAYING something. In Jack's (OS) word's: "Come on, give me somethin to go on, this ain't no little thing that's happenin here!"
I love that whole motel scene. A lot of times I'll watch it once and focus totally on Ennis' face, then rewatch it and focus totally on Jack. There are a ton of details that if you're watching one, you'll miss on the other. Heath and Jake played that scene (and so many others) just spot-on.

I keep thinking of other LSDs at random moments through the day then when I get on here to post, they are all gone. Brain farts, I suppose.



Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: dontinterrupt on January 15, 2015, 05:26:47 pm
LSD= love that abbreviation <3
I love that whole motel scene. A lot of times I'll watch it once and focus totally on Ennis' face, then rewatch it and focus totally on Jack. There are a ton of details that if you're watching one, you'll miss on the other.




So true! I do that quite a lot (I still can't get over the fact that I can freely say this stuff to someone and not feel like a total freak for it!) - and that motel scene is one of the deeper ones expression-wise. For example, the rapid change in Ennis's facial expression when Jack asks "what are we gonna do now?"- like it just struck and destroyed him all over again how much of a hopeless situation they're in. And he doesn't even need to say a word- it's all written in his eyes. God, his eyes in certain moments just make me wanna cry for an hour and then go through that screen, give him a hug, stroke his hair and say "shh...s'alright..."
Nope, still feels a little bit freaky to say this!  I guess I'm still in the "i ain't queer" stage if you know what I mean ;)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Sason on February 03, 2015, 06:45:34 pm
I'm loving the exchange here.

Please keep it coming, CDT and dontinterrupt!

You may not get a lot of replies from other forum members who are past that stage of Brokiedom, but I for one love to read it.

I kinda miss the raw emotions and obsession with these details from my early Brokie years.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: coffeedrinkintexan on February 03, 2015, 10:07:53 pm
Thank you, Sason!  :-*   I have really wanted to sneak in another viewing here lately....to get more of those LSDs.

Grad school has been really overwhelming in terms of both time and emotional energy so I find myself with so little left over at the end of the day. And it's too emotionally shattering to watch without free time at the end to cry and then pull myself together and move on.

But one little thing I just love (even though it's not a very happy scene) is when Ennis complains, "I can't believe I left my damn shirt up there."

Jake plays/Jack responds *exactly* the way I respond when I've come *thisclose* to getting busted at something....kids almost find the Christmas present hiding spot, husband starts asking questions when I'm trying to plan a surprise for him...

....the "Oh-God-try-to-stay-cool-and-say-something-without-giving-it-away", so you just say, "yeah....". His facial expression is just perfect there.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: dontinterrupt on February 15, 2015, 12:06:41 am
aw, thanks, Sason :)
so here's another LSD I lately began to appreciate:
Fishing trip post the thanksgiving drama scene. The one with "God damn Jack-Fucking-Twist, got it all figured out, don't ya" (BTW: how harsh!).
Rewind a little bit to the moment when Jack says "Well, maybe you oughta get out of there, you know? Find yourself some place different, maybe Texas?". Note how Jack's tone and behaviour are so blatantly uncertain, really emphasising how insecure (almost scared) he still is after all these years, to be mentioning anything that even vaguely hints them getting together. He even tries to fake nonchalance when saying this, with the pauses and the shrug, but it really only highlights it. And then when Ennis starts to ridicule him with the sarcastic remark of adopting the girls with Lureen, this insecurity is confirmed again along with something else definitely present there when he just looks at Ennis defeat in his eyes, blinks a few times, then tilts his head (look closely, it lasts but a few seconds), as Ennis finishes his tirade. His "Go to hell, Ennis Del Mar" sums all these feelings up - resentful, quiet, voice breaking, then quickly replaced by anger.
Did you see that too? It's such an underrated scene!... Or am I overanalysing?  ???
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on February 15, 2015, 04:17:01 am
Did you see that too? It's such an underrated scene!... Or am I overanalysing?  ???


Yes, I did. And no, you're not at all overanalyzing; you described it very well.
Jack's attempt on hiding his motives is pretty clumsy and Ennis easily sees through it. I can understand Ennis' strong reaction. E opens up to J, talks about his insecurities, his angst, about their situation (and I bet he wasn't often willing to do that!) and J brushes E's anxieties aside in one big swoop: just move to Texas, everything will be fine. As if Tx were so much more progressive and easy going. And no thought whatsoever about E's daughters. Easy to say for Jack. But of course, seeing poor Jack being put down so harshly is sad, too.


Like Sonja (Sason) already said, and as you can see here in Open Forum, we led these discussions of minuscule details over several years. Talk about excessive. ;D ;)
But for us this phase of being a Brokie is also years ago meanwhile. Don't get disheartened when you get only few new replies. Like Sonja, I also read and enjoy what you two add here, even if I don't join the discussion. And I think Sonja and I are not the only ones. Keep it up. :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: serious crayons on February 15, 2015, 10:10:27 am
And I think Sonja and I are not the only ones.

You're not!  ;D

I'm still interested after all these years in seeing what people observe. Please continue and enjoy, dontinterrupt and coffeedrinkintexan! That's what BetterMost is for. And it's almost impossible to overanalyze "Brokeback Mountain," movie or story!




Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 15, 2015, 10:18:06 am
I second that! Your post reminded me of every time Ennis opened the door just a bit, Jack would walk right through, breaking his "vertebrates" just a little more each time. It reminded me of Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football.  :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: coffeedrinkintexan on February 15, 2015, 11:58:11 am
aw, thanks, Sason :)
so here's another LSD I lately began to appreciate:
Fishing trip post the thanksgiving drama scene. The one with "God damn Jack-Fucking-Twist, got it all figured out, don't ya" (BTW: how harsh!).
Rewind a little bit to the moment when Jack says "Well, maybe you oughta get out of there, you know? Find yourself some place different, maybe Texas?". Note how Jack's tone and behaviour are so blatantly uncertain, really emphasising how insecure (almost scared) he still is after all these years, to be mentioning anything that even vaguely hints them getting together. He even tries to fake nonchalance when saying this, with the pauses and the shrug, but it really only highlights it. And then when Ennis starts to ridicule him with the sarcastic remark of adopting the girls with Lureen, this insecurity is confirmed again along with something else definitely present there when he just looks at Ennis defeat in his eyes, blinks a few times, then tilts his head (look closely, it lasts but a few seconds), as Ennis finishes his tirade. His "Go to hell, Ennis Del Mar" sums all these feelings up - resentful, quiet, voice breaking, then quickly replaced by anger.
Did you see that too? It's such an underrated scene!... Or am I overanalysing?  ???
That's such a painful scene, start to finish.

J&E both full of hopes (some of them repressed), doubts, fears, and frustrations and they both just boil over....just a little. It's kind of a prelude to the bigger blowup that's coming.

They are both so damaged, yet fundamentally good people, and work so hard to cover the damage in their own way. It's devastating. I just want to take them home and hug them both and tell them they can be together, it's okay with me.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: dontinterrupt on February 17, 2015, 01:33:18 pm

Jack's attempt on hiding his motives is pretty clumsy and Ennis easily sees through it. I can understand Ennis' strong reaction. E opens up to J, talks about his insecurities, his angst, about their situation (and I bet he wasn't often willing to do that!) and J brushes E's anxieties aside in one big swoop: just move to Texas, everything will be fine. As if Tx were so much more progressive and easy going. And no thought whatsoever about E's daughters. Easy to say for Jack. But of course, seeing poor Jack being put down so harshly is sad, too.


Thanks Penthesilea! I've not thought about this scene much from Ennis's perspective, you're right. I think you might have opened my eyes here, as I've noticed now that whenever I go past the after-divorce scene in the movie (the one with Jack's 'surprise' visit), I tend to victimise Jack a lot in their relationship...


Like Sonja (Sason) already said, and as you can see here in Open Forum, we led these discussions of minuscule details over several years. Talk about excessive. ;D ;)


Haha, yes, so I've noticed :D which probably means that not many details by now escaped your attention and I am probably repeating a lot/ reinventing the wheel here... but for us rookies it is quite hard having to read through hundreds of pages of brilliant posts in each topic before contributing something of our own... hope this makes sense?

Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 17, 2015, 02:05:14 pm

Haha, yes, so I've noticed :D which probably means that not many details by now escaped your attention and I am probably repeating a lot/ reinventing the wheel here... but for us rookies it is quite hard having to read through hundreds of pages of brilliant posts in each topic before contributing something of our own... hope this makes sense?

You'd be surprised how we have just scratched the surface on many different things! At any rate, it's great to see someone new getting hit with these revelations, and in turn reliving it ourselves!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Penthesilea on February 17, 2015, 02:58:34 pm
Thanks Penthesilea! I've not thought about this scene much from Ennis's perspective, you're right. I think you might have opened my eyes here, [...]


Well, I've been an Ennis girl all the way. Couldn't help it back then any more than I can now. ;D


Quote
Haha, yes, so I've noticed :D which probably means that not many details by now escaped your attention and I am probably repeating a lot/ reinventing the wheel here... but for us rookies it is quite hard having to read through hundreds of pages of brilliant posts in each topic before contributing something of our own... hope this makes sense?


Of course it makes sense! We all came here to express these thoughts/ideas/feelings, to share them with likeminded people. We needed this outlet.
Thus we understand when it's the same for you now. And there's no need to worry about repeating something. Enough space around these parts. Go ahead to your hearts content; some of us "oldies" enjoy following like I already said. We hope you found a home on the internet here. :)
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: joandcruz on March 09, 2015, 08:47:26 am
First, I have to say I really, really love this site, and I allready read all is written "lovable subtle details".
Thanks a lot for this space, I love the movie as  never before.
My english is not good enough but, please, be sweet with me.

I want to say this ( and I hope someone please answer and talk with me )

1. I love Jackīs mom at the end taking Ennis hand while she is putting the shirts in to the paper bag....
2. I could swear that the words that Jack said in the first take, out of Aguirreīs office is FUCK YOU. We can only see the movement of his lips.... I think he said that because he is a little angry with Ennis cold attitude.
3. In the tent scene, the first one, why Jack hit on the floor? I think is pain? Or he wants Ennis stop? Then I see Jack put his hand on Ennis hand, and then he tries to take both hands, Ennis and yours with the other, and then, they fall. I understand there is not only pain, but when I hear Jack in real pain.

My favorite part, all, but specially when Ennis is so so so happy "saying a thankfull prayer"

Thanks a lot. I would like to explain in a better way all I can feel.
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 09, 2015, 10:59:19 am
Welcome, joandcruz! Want a cup of coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: coffeedrinkintexan on March 09, 2015, 12:09:37 pm
First, I have to say I really, really love this site, and I allready read all is written "lovable subtle details".
Thanks a lot for this space, I love the movie as  never before.
My english is not good enough but, please, be sweet with me.

I want to say this ( and I hope someone please answer and talk with me )

1. I love Jackīs mom at the end taking Ennis hand while she is putting the shirts in to the paper bag....
2. I could swear that the words that Jack said in the first take, out of Aguirreīs office is FUCK YOU. We can only see the movement of his lips.... I think he said that because he is a little angry with Ennis cold attitude.
3. In the tent scene, the first one, why Jack hit on the floor? I think is pain? Or he wants Ennis stop? Then I see Jack put his hand on Ennis hand, and then he tries to take both hands, Ennis and yours with the other, and then, they fall. I understand there is not only pain, but when I hear Jack in real pain.

My favorite part, all, but specially when Ennis is so so so happy "saying a thankfull prayer"

Thanks a lot. I would like to explain in a better way all I can feel.
Hi joandcruz! Welcome, you're with friends here! :)

I think in the tent scene when Jack hits the ground with his fist, that is a piece of fine acting on Jake's part. I think it's meant to show that, like sex can be, he's got both pleasure and pain.

Haven't noticed the part as they're walking out of Aguirre's office but you've given me another reason to go watch it again.

I think we are all in love with Jack's mom for being so kind to Ennis as she puts the shirts in the paper bag.

Stick around and talk away. We love talking about Brokeback!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: BBM_victim on February 07, 2017, 03:16:40 am
Alright guys.... New victim joining here! 11 years later and still coming!

So, let me contribute to those LSDs here...

- When Jack comes back to the camp and complains about commuting and all, he checks on the (coffee?) pot with the back of his hand. Like they way he does it!

- After Jack pisses and comes back to the fire where Ennis is enjoying his meal ("mm.. mmm.." :)), he does that sexy "snatch"(?) at his belt buckle, sits down and starts to position his foot into the fire, then next to it, then into the fire again - love his whole movements at that point. I always can't get my eyes off that foot! And his face - just gorgeous...

- LOVE the way Jack holds Ennis' neck at his "surprise" visit after the divorce notice - as if he's holding something really precious (he really does...). And also love how happy Ennis is at seeing Jack and how he just can't stop grinning... for a few moments just too long in view of the conversation they actually have...  :'(

- Upon Jack's kick-ass speech towards his father-in-law at Thanksgiving dinner, Bobbie sits straight up - very nicely done!

- The way Ennis checks whether the mailbox "do look right" at the end. Same old Ennis, making sure everything is proper and right... i'm not sure whether i should smile or cry here...

- Lastly, can't get enough of the way Ennis and Jack talk to each other! Even when they are angry or frustrated, the bond i feel in the way they talk to each other is just unbreakable. They are made for each other, bonded SO deeply, no matter what they say. Favorite lines:

"What happened, Ennis?" (after the bear)
"Ennis! Just quit you hammering and get iiin here!" (Stop torturing me with your hammering! *melt*)
"What are you doing here, huh?" (surprise meeting after the divorce notice)
"Yep, you're a real thinker there! Goddamn! Jack Fuckin' Twist... He got it all figured out, ain't he?" (Ennis is a bit angry, but for me it sounds really loving how he says it all. Kind of patronizing Jack for having said something quite naive.)
"Lighten up on me, Jack"
"Damn you, Ennis" - that one was - while quite in pain - just so loving... *melt*


Hope somebody could engage with me in some talking, cause i can't get over this movie for 2 weeks now and need some comfort, please  :'(
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: BBM_victim on February 07, 2017, 08:32:18 pm
Ah, i should add another one here.

Ennis - dancing?!?!?! Could please somebody shoot me?? Cause that was the most sexy dance ever! Lucky Cassie...
And i come to think Ennis can do just anything and look amazing at it! He can take care of animals, he can cook, loves children, doesn't mind hard work (including castrating calves  :D), ... can dance?? Ladies, is this a dream of a guy or what?  :D
But - as always with "dream guys" - they already love somebody else.... And it happened to be Jack who owned his heart!
Title: Re: lovable subtle details
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 07, 2017, 09:41:26 pm
Isn't that true!? Welcome, BBM_victim!