BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Penthesilea on August 06, 2007, 07:56:25 am
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Howdy folks,
a big thank you to everybody who participated in the last TOTW :)! It was great to get so much input and to read a wide range of opinions. I'll add my two cents in the next days (never enough time...).
The different Topics of the Week will be consecutively numbered for every year. I modified last weeks title to "Topic of the Week 1/07: ...", meaning it is the first TOTW in the year 2007. Accordingly this week's is TOTW 2/07 and the first TOTW next January will be 01/08, and so on.
You wanna know more about the concept of the TOTW? Go here and read an introduction:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,12186.0.html
(http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,12186.0.html)
Enough of the organizational stuff - now to the current TOTW:
It is story only, since the answer for the movie is definitely given by Ang Lee in TS2.
Some people think the famous reunion kiss as described by Annie Proulx was their first kiss ever, that they never kissed during their first and only summer on Brokeback. Others are sure they did of course kiss each other. What do you think?
Story only: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
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I would doubt it. Based on AP's description of their sexual activities, kissing would have been too intimate an acitivity. To Ennis, it would have been a physical expression of something he didn't understand, and also an admission, albeit a silent one, that he was indeed queer.
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I disagree with Scott though he has a point. When they reunited they kissed each other without thinking about it. I think it means, they might have kissed up in Brokeback, since the reunion kiss came very natural to them.
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[Proulx]
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his[Jack's] memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held.
And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
Let be, let be.
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Toast just made the point that immediately came to my mind. Judging from this detail, it seems unlikely that story Ennis and Jack ever kissed on Brokeback...though I sure wish they had (and it's not impossible that they did).
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Like moremojo I desperately wish that Jack and Ennis did kiss up on Brokeback.
Somebody said that the reunion kiss seemed well practised - however the story reunion kiss was far from smooth and soft:
They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack's big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis's straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other's toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin.
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When I heard this theory, that they never kissed up on Brokbecak, for the first time. I was like: :o :o :o - no effin way!
That thought had never occurred to me (and by then, I had been a Brokie for a long while) and I realised that my personal view of Brokeback Mountain is much more influenced by the movie than by the story.
But after re-reading the significant parts of the story and thinking about it for a while I admit that it is possible.
Yet my personal take on it is still that they indeed did kiss up there.
This part is for me kind of key to the question:
"...then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, ..."
Easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers sounds to me like it is something they did hundred times before; like it's something well-known, familiar and natural - they fit like a a glove. Even after four years of seperation there wasn't any awkwardness in them, they just continued where they had stopped (before Jake broke the news of bringing them down).
I think it wouldn't be that way (easily as...) if it were the first time.
Additionally I have a hard time picturing two people having sex for months and falling in love (whether they knew it by then or not), but never sharing a kiss. Scott's argument that it would have been a silent admission for Ennis that he was queer sounds to me more like movie-Ennis and not like story-Ennis.
And after four years of seperation and not knowing if they'd ever see each other again, after four years of built-up passion it's no wonder the kiss wasn't soft and smooth.
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You guys have to realize what kissing means to closeted (actually closeted and in self-denial) gay men. It's a very sensitive and touchy issue for them. Besides the Topic was aimed at the book version, and we have authoritative proof that they never did.
[Proulx]
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his[Jack's] memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held.
And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
Let be, let be.
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Ennis would not then embrace him face to face
This is what I love about Annie Proulx's prose - there is so much ambiguity there that she cannot be pinned down.
Her use of the word then gives you the possible idea that Ennis did indeed become willing to embrace Jack face to face later; but was that during the time that they felt invisible on the mountain?
Their departure in 1963 (NO kissing behaviour there either) :
"Right," said Jack, and they shook hands, hit each other on the shoulder, then there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions.
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I agree that the sentence "Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held" leaves room for ambiguity. As Toast suggests, the word "then" could refer to an ambiguous point and amout of time. "Then" could refer to that one particular embrace. Or, "then" could refer to the whole '63 summer. Or, "then" could refer to an early point in the '63 summer that was different from later encounters that same summer. Etc.
Proulx sentence seems to suggest that kissing was at least a very special thing that they needed to grow into or grow comfortable with (or at least Ennis did).
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I think they did kiss, but it was like it is portrayed in the movie, with Ennis' eyes closed. And it was brief, a couple a times only. No heavy making out...
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I see everyones point of view here, and see how they feel the way they do. But as in all these discussions, I feel the ambiguity is
there for the reason we are having this discussion. Everyone has the ability to make their own decision, by bringing their very own life experiences to the mix. Personally I agree with Chrissi's assessment. The most operative line being "as easily" etc. The key fit period.
As for the way they parted, of course they would act casual and part like buddies. They were in public, and Ennis could not have allowed any other parting behavior.
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As for the way they parted, of course they would act casual and part like buddies. They were in public, and Ennis could not have allowed any other parting behavior.
Even so, story Jack and Ennis were far more demonstrative than their celluloid counterparts in this same scene. I would have at least wanted a parting handshake with the man I loved (and I've always been particularly fond of pats on the back), but movie Ennis couldn't even muster up that meager gesture. Another suggestion among others that story Ennis may be slightly more self-aware, or becomes more aware more quickly, than the film's character.
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You guys have to realize what kissing means to closeted (actually closeted and in self-denial) gay men. It's a very sensitive and touchy issue for them. Besides the Topic was aimed at the book version, and we have authoritative proof that they never did.
Its sad, but I have to agree with Scott here. Kissing is so intimate. Its a way of showing and feeling how much one is loved. Up on Brokeback, Ennis was in denial of his love for Jack.
I dont think the reunion kiss was practiced. There was so much pent up love and longing after 4 years that when they saw each other again, nature took over, and as "easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers" Jack and Ennis kissed and hard for the first time disregarding any rules of society.
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Kissing is so intimate. Its a way of showing and feeling how much one is loved.
Hm. Kissing can be very intimate and everything you meant above. But not necessarily so, it can also just happen in the heat of the moment. Like you described the reunion kiss:
There was so much pent up love and longing after 4 years that when they saw each other again, nature took over, and as "easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers" Jack and Ennis kissed and hard for the first time disregarding any rules of society.
My argument here is that on Brokeback there already was a good deal of pent up sexual tension, and of longing in those two. They were 19 year old teenagers after all.
And both of them were (or became) pretty uninhibited during their summer:
After the first night:
"...both[!] knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned."
(I love the great "sheep be damned" phrase) This sentence shows a different Ennis than movieEnnis.
And on they go:
"They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but not saying a goddamn word except once..."
Annies says twice in this one sentence, that they didn't talk about the sex, but what she does not say is, that they didn't kiss.
"There were only the two of them on the mountain..."
"They believed themselves invisible..."
No rules, no society up there (at least they think so - f*** Aguirre). But plenty of passion and uninhibited sex. I can imagine passionate kisses belonging to the scenario, too.
They "let it happen". How exactly did it "happen"? I don't mean the sexual act itself, but how to begin it? Ennis coming down from the sheep and Jack wordlessly opening his pants? Ennis jumping directly on Jack after gulping down the last beans on his plate? I think not. They had a real good time together, they were not only f***-buddies, but friends. They traded stories, talked about the sheep, bitching about Aguirre, and so on.
I picture them sitting at the campfire, munching their food, smoking a cigarette afterwards and talking and laughing together. How in hell did they come from that to having sex? There must have been some kind of "foreplay", however brief, maybe sometimes consisting in only a look of mutual understanding, but other times some kind of physical contact must have happened before the act itself.
I know it doesn't mean that kissing must have ben a part of that physical contact. But it makes me wonder.
Another thing that makes me wonder; not necessarily tied to the question of kissing:
"..., and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably."
Before Jack took Ennis's hand and brought it to his penis, they already had come considerably closer. What do you think: only closer in regard to the space between them (huddling against each other) - or else?
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As one of the chief problem-makers over on DCF about this question, I should avoid it like the plague but.....
I am convinced that AP writes a layer of meaning that holds together well as a No Kiss argument. It can be ignored and the story still hangs together but I do believe it's there.
We are led to suppose that "nothing seemed wrong", to fill in the gaps with our imagination. But we are told that Ennis didn't want to have anything to do with Jack's cock and took him from behind and that "they knew how it would go....as it did go"
Then we are told that they had sex in different places and at different times but not that it changed in its substance. Then we find out that Ennis would not embrace Jack face to face.
I think the lock simile in the reunion kiss shows that they are unlocking something that was previously locked. There's a whole bunch of other arguments which seem to hang together well but I won't ramble on. The whole sorry mess on DCF started here
http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12935.msg465488#msg465488
and eventually got banned completely from the forum. It's a touchy subject.
I think it shows how deeply affected Ennis was, and how debilitating the effects of internalised homophobia were on him. FWIW I'm trying to put the whole argument together on a webpage. I think it's a fundamental part of the story.
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I am impressed by the interesting and intelligent comments, both pro and con, that have been offered here. I do think it is important to argue one's points with the original text as support, and I think to a large degree that has been followed.
The source of so much of the frustration is, I think, rooted in the quite deliberate ambiguity of Proulx's prose. There is much that we simply cannot know with certainty, and I suspect this may be an invitation to identify ourselves with Ennis, who must bear a lifetime of unknowns by the end of the tale (though the most essential question--Who have I loved?--has been answered). Proulx really meant it when she said it fell to the reader to finish the story in their own lives, and that is all anyone who has been haunted by this particular story can do.
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When I heard this theory, that they never kissed up on Brokbecak, for the first time. I was like: :o :o :o - no effin way!
That thought had never occurred to me (and by then, I had been a Brokie for a long while) and I realised that my personal view of Brokeback Mountain is much more influenced by the movie than by the story.
But after re-reading the significant parts of the story and thinking about it for a while I admit that it is possible.
Yet my personal take on it is still that they indeed did kiss up there.
This part is for me kind of key to the question:
"...then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, ..."
Easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers sounds to me like it is something they did hundred times before; like it's something well-known, familiar and natural - they fit like a a glove. Even after four years of seperation there wasn't any awkwardness in them, they just continued where they had stopped (before Jake broke the news of bringing them down).
I think it wouldn't be that way (easily as...) if it were the first time.
Additionally I have a hard time picturing two people having sex for months and falling in love (whether they knew it by then or not), but never sharing a kiss. Scott's argument that it would have been a silent admission for Ennis that he was queer sounds to me more like movie-Ennis and not like story-Ennis.
And after four years of seperation and not knowing if they'd ever see each other again, after four years of built-up passion it's no wonder the kiss wasn't soft and smooth.
What a logical and yet impassioned argument! Alright you convinced me. Annie would not have let them come together on Brokeback that first summer without kissing. That would have been a GBOAUS!!
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Well, as the person who set off that chaotic firestorm on DC with comments which were, uh, ill -advised and ill-timed {I walked into a minefield....w/o knowing it was a minefield---Dave himself got into the act. } I should avoid this like the plague. Hell, I barely posted in that thread, it just didn't seem that important a question. My comments were basically about free speech and an unpopular subject, and were inspired by what went on re that Kiss/NoKiss thread. It hit the nerve of all time, but no matter.
I'm a kisser.
It's a gut feeling, that's all. I find it impossible to believe that they never smooched up there.
I haven't been online much at all since mid-June, soooooo. HIIIII to all my BM buds!!!! Both the wife and I were pretty sick, she has recovered fairly well and I'm maybe halfway there. We had this environmentally poisoned home. It was a real real mess.
I DO have to say this as a general remark:
I think BM is crying out for "heavy" discussions like this one. They would give new life to our forum and re-awaken interest in the minutae of the short story itself. This place has an attitude which cannot be duplicated. I started on DC and have considered myself a staunch BM person from the day I joined, it's a wonderful, happy and tolerant place....
Thank you, BM!!!! As usual, this forum is 'the port in the storm'. What would we all do w/o Phillip's tolerance and broad-minded care?
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Since the topic of DCF has come up twice, I'd like to respond to it:
I didn't know that this subject is such a can of worms over there. I had only seen this topic discussed in comments on LifeJournal a few months ago. Following Miniangle's link I went over and had a look.
I don't think anybody should stay away from this topic here on BetterMost. Everybody is welcome to add his opinion, to agree or disagree with others, to quote Proulx's story to make a point or to just simply say "yes" or "no" to the topic's question.
Now back on topic:
I still would like to get other people's opinions about the questions I asked in my above post. Any takes?
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Crissi---how did they let it happen.... That's a question with as many answers as there are people on this forum. I picture them greeting, talking, joking around; Jack complaining about this or that; having a drink next to each other and just touching. A touch leading to maybe a hug, a hug leading to a kiss. I picture it as a normal evolution and progression aided and abetted by their being alone on the mounain with not a single solitary soul within many milkes of their encampment. I picture shyness at first, and then sheep be damned, those boys went at it like hogs in the mud.
In regards to deepened intimacy, in English it's pretty clear what AP meant but the meaning may be quite obscure if one's native language is not English. I remember a passage in Chateaubriand which baffled me, years ago; a friend from the Aquitaine said it was crystal clear to a Frenchman yet he could see how it might baffle an American: there are cultural connotations which simply do not translate. I am certain it is the same in Germanic literature as well!
There is an 'archness', a sly and dry wit to that phrase which always gets a knowing smile when a Yankee reads it. Or hears it. But I do not think it translates into other languages. It means that they deepened their intimacy considerably, and sexually---no instruction manual needed lol.
And how are you my friend? I think if you often...
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Lol, there's at least one opinion less than people on this board ;D, because I absolutely agree with you. I picture the scenario just like you. And I like your use of the "sheep be damned". It is another example of a senctence with more than one meaning. Not only the sheep be damned, but Aguirre, their job/responibilities (to a certain degree), and even societies rules.
That's one of the reasons why I think they did kiss.
Regarding the deepened intimacy: what you wrote is how I understood this phrase intuitively when I read it. But seeing another version in the movie and having the "no kissing/few intimacy" POV in mind I wasn't sure.
I'm fine, thanks for asking. We just had a very relaxing family vacation and I'm optimistic reagarding next June. I PMed you.
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Although the week's well and truly up, I guess it's still okay to post here. I put up a page on LiveJournal with most of the "No Kiss" arguments laid out, if anyone's interested. It's at
http://brokebackkiss.livejournal.com
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Wow, miniangel, that was very impressive. I wish I was as eloquent as you. I've been struggling with this question for a while. It started while I was in Alberta, reading the story again and then i discovered this thread.
I think they did kiss on Brokeback Mountain. As in kissing being an 'intimate act'. How could they not have kissed, if they had embraced like that? To me the act of that embrace and Ennis humming a lullaby to Jack, is an even more intimate thing to do than kissing. In giving something to Jack that his mama had given him (the comfort of cuddling and humming a lullaby, feeling totally safe and protected), I think Ennis is in effect showing Jack just how much he loves him. The fact that it's Ennis who initiates the embrace makes the whole scene even more powerful and moving to me. That 'pawing the white out of the moon' thing, you know.
And 'that' line in the short story (Ennis wouldn't hold him face to face because he didn't want to see it was Jack he held) has always bugged me. I almost feel as if 'it's not right', it's out of place. I'm not sure if it's Annie Proulx talking here or if this is the way Jack remembers it. If it's the latter, i guess it would make more sense because by the time Jack remember the dozy embrace, he feels very let down by Ennis who not only said no to that cow and calf operation but once again said no to August. This way, i could understand that Jack assumed that that was the reason why Ennis wouldn't hold him face to face.
If it's Annie Proulx stating the situation as it is, i almost feel like it doesn't make sense. (Wow, am I really saying this? I mean, i love the story!!) Thinking about how the whole embrace scene develops, how could Ennis not have held Jack from behind? Jack was dozing off, standing in front of the fire, very still and quiet. Ennis wanted to join him in that quiet moment, he could not have turned Jack around, that would have disturbed him. So the most natural way to hug Jack was from behind, keeping the atmosphere quiet and intimate. How could Ennis not have acknowledged the fact that it was Jack he held? Jack was the only person Ennis would ever hold like this, rocking him like a baby, humming a lullaby.
I understand the reasons behind the statement that Ennis didn’t want to see it was a man that he held. Ennis’ self denial is very real. But not in that scene. The fact that he was able to embrace Jack in this way demonstrates how he really felt, at ease and comfortable… well on Brokeback Mountain anyway. Never enough time, never enough.
Just my two cents...
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I understand everything you say here. It all seems to make sense, doesn't it. Yet a question remains - if the fact that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face had the later potential to mar Jack's memory, why didn't he turn into Ennis's embrace? And for me, the answer is that he knew it would not be acceptable to Ennis, that it would break the spell.
It is indeed a most intimate moment and we'd like to think there were many more, yet that one stood out in Jack's memory as the single moment of artless charmed happiness. Twenty years down the track Jack still recalls that Ennis wouldn't embrace him face to face - not that he didn't but that he wouldn't. IOW his best memory had a potential flaw. There had never been a better, unflawed memory to supplant it.
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The whole description of the dozy embrace is very complex... it's hard to articulate all the things that the memory for Jack may mean. The phrase "artless charmed happiness" is interesting in the context of the question of kissing or the desire to kiss. I've come to understand Jack's fondness for that memory to mean something having to do with the concept of non-sexual love or affection. In a way, if Jack had turned into Ennis for a kiss it would contradict that idea immediately (regardless of whether it would have been acceptable to Ennis). I think of Jack remembering that moment as the first sign that Ennis's emotions or their emotions for one another were much deeper than just physical lust. I don't know how to interpret the word "single" in that it seems odd that moments like that wouldn't come up in their later years as the relationship progressed. Maybe the "single" really does mainly apply to the Brokeback summer.
It's a very complicated passage and scenario. :-\