BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Our BetterMost Community => Chez Tremblay => Topic started by: Kelda on May 10, 2006, 04:47:50 am
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I asked this in Maggiesmommys thread about the family stone..but though I'd pose it again in a new topic..
Another question I've been meaning to pose... do people think that a male gay couple is more socially acceptable than a lesbian couple and if so, why?
My take is yes, but I'm not quite sure why.. TV maybe?
More male gay characters on TV? (I know there was The L Word but I never watched it)
latjoreme was the only reply, with
I don't know about real life, but you're right, in movies this certainly seems to be true. Maybe it's because most filmmakers are straight men who feel even more threatened by gay women than they are by gay men.
Thoughts guys?
K
x
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Believe me, where I live (France), same-sex couples are NOT socially acceptable, whether male OR female, so I'd be hard-pressed to answer. But I'll try.
I have watched the L Word, but on imported DVD since it is not known in France. And the ONE gay-oriented channel we have is private, therefore you have to pay for it and few people watch it, but yeah, it is more male oriented I think.
I would venture to say that it is because whatever men do in our societies, it is paid more attention than what women do - unless it concerns housekeeping and child-rearing issues. Or faithfulness to husband.
When homosexuality was still a crime (till 1982 here) and on the list of mental illnesses (till 1992 here, and till 1990 for the World Health Organization), it seems that more male gays suffered, or are known to have suffered, than lesbians (I think of Oscar Wilde, Joe Orton...). Female homosexuality was even NOT believed to exist by Queen Victoria! So it has probably been more invisible all the time, and now that in some countries or social backgrounds gay couples are becoming socially acceptable, I am not surprised that male gay couples are more acceptable: they're the ones who've been talked about all the time.
Just my 2 cents.
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wow! Thankyou for filling me in in the French attitude/background to this.
I have to say I'm surprised. I always took France to be a very liberal nation in a lot of ways. How was BBM recieved?
I def think you are right when you say this - and then this would be reinforced by television and the media.. ie will and grace etc.
So it has probably been more invisible all the time, and now that in some countries or social backgrounds gay couples are becoming socially acceptable, I am not surprised that male gay couples are more acceptable: they're the ones who've been talked about all the time.
Just my 2 cents.
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BBM was seen by over 1,4 million people in France, although there was no big hype (only the 'intelligent' papers and magazines, and radio stations, talked about it - all in very enthusiastic terms). But only those who had nothing against gays went to watch it, and many people I know just said "yeah, it was good. A bit too slow/long".
I don't know why France is seen as such a liberal country. The cliché of the French couple being composed of 3 persons is still alive (abroad). I guess that situation must have been rife at a time because of the unbearable machismo and sexism of French men (chasing other women because hey! that's what women are there for, and the wives getting fed up and deluding themselves that they might be happier with another male??).
France was one of the last European countries to grant women the right to vote, the right to contraception (then to FREE contraception), the right to abortion, the right to claim they had been raped, when they HAD been, without the Police laughing in their faces, the right to say they'd been raped by their husband and have it recognized as such (only 2-3 years ago).
On IMDb, some non-French Europeans were shocked that I could say France was still a homophobic country. Only one girl voiced her agreement: she was British and had just spent a year in France, and was amazed at how even STUDENTS could be so homophobic. She was right: I teach secondary (high school) and uni students, and we did have debates about same-sex couples/love this year, and the overwhelming majority are against gay marriage (with adoption of children).
Gays are ok in films here, especially American films, but 'NIMB'. The most popular French film picturing gays is "La Cage aux Folles", which figures screaming hysterical gays - the stereotypes straight males like to see, because... they are so different, aren't they.
I even asked my local LGBT for figures, and could see that more Americans (!!) are in favour of gay marriage with adoption than French people! I am sorry to tell you, Kelda, that the British are even worse than the French on that one...
Ok, I'll stop here, but could go on a while, when I get started on this I cannot stop!
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I think what Isabelle said about lesbianism's invisibility is really important. Many people deny that female couples even really exsist in the same way male couples do because, since there is no penis involved in the sex, it isn't considered real sex. When people were first starting to take notice of homosexuality, before the terms homosexual or gay even existed to lable it, men were really the only ones in the public eye or punnished because a relationship between two women was seen as a "friendship". People had a hard time imagining it could even move beyond this. Also, since women have always had the stigma of being "naturally" more caring etc., society thought that, what we would now call lesbianism, was just normal female bonding. It's really only when sex was attached to it that it became a problem. What's interesting now is that many lesbians would say that they don't even have a language to describe what they do in the bedroom because sex is a male term that implies a penis... just something to think about. But IMO, gay men are more accepted than gay women, possibly because of media exposure. In many ways, lesbianism is still invisible. Bisexuality even more so, many people, both gay and straight have trouble accepting bisexuality.
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Littleguitar: I have to agree with every single word!
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Believe me, where I live (France), same-sex couples are NOT socially acceptable, whether male OR female
What?!
Hmm.. I can't answer the original question, because as much as I think people seem to accept more a male-gay-couple than female, I keep hearing/reading that a women-couple is more acceptable...
Well, among the same-sex couples I know or have met, they were all male, except one back in the early 90s in the UK (actually that's a lie, I have met more lesbian couples since), I had a co-student who when I asked her whether she was already married (we were in our early 20s and she was wearing a wedding ring) she said yes and gave me a female name (her wife). I looked a bit surprised, because it was the first open lesbian I had come to know. In my time in Britain I 'came across' many more gay couples (gay or lesbian). It seemed to be no big deal at all.
Belgium even if a bit behind with many things, is quite forward with respect to the gay/lesbian-couple theme. Love it!
~ j U d E
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I think the reality of homosexuality, male or female, is problematic for most socieities. However, the straight male fantasy of two women together is a prevalent one, though it is distant from any reality I know. So, the image of women kissing or touching each other sexually is considered titillating, whereas the general perception of men doing the same is that it's offensive.
In that sense, women can get away with same sex physical intimacy to some degree more than men, at least in the US, but that's really in specific sexual context.
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From my perspective, gay and lesbians are accepted in equally limited amount, though in different way. Gay men are accepted by mainstream society as fashionable accessories. Every woman must have a gay best friend who will advise her on the best color for the season and will tell her if that latest hairdo will make her face look trimmer. Lesbian depictions are limited to heterosexual male fantasies. In both, the mainstream don't want to see either gay men or lesbians as fully human. Neither have been depicted as people with full lives and love, but rather are limited to stereotypes.
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I agree Celeste, but I think it's that really specific sexual context that makes us think lesbianism is accepted when really it isn't. With two beautiful women in a movie or porn flick, lesbianism is fine. But if it's two real looking women going at it and wanting nothing to do with men, that's when our society tends to find it offensive. How many times does a lesbian hear something like, "you just need a real man"... there is a really fine line, I think, when it comes to lesbianism about what will turn a man on and what will offend him. And, concerning women, I think gay men tend to me more accepted by women than lesbians. Obviously that isn't always the case, but it seems to be true a lot of the time.
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I agree Celeste, but I think it's that really specific sexual context that makes us think lesbianism is accepted when really it isn't. With two beautiful women in a movie or porn flick, lesbianism is fine. But if it's two real looking women going at it and wanting nothing to do with men, that's when our society tends to find it offensive. How many times does a lesbian hear something like, "you just need a real man"... there is a really fine line, I think, when it comes to lesbianism about what will turn a man on and what will offend him. And, concerning women, I think gay men tend to me more accepted by women than lesbians. Obviously that isn't always the case, but it seems to be true a lot of the time.
Oh yeah - that's totally my point. As long as it's confined to an idea of some fantasy, it's fine, but the reality is very different. We're just going to have to agree to agree here!
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Oh yeah - that's totally my point. As long as it's confined to an idea of some fantasy, it's fine, but the reality is very different. We're just going to have to agree to agree here!
LOL, yep! I was agreeing with you! sorry, I think I used the word "but" instead of "and", made it seem like I was arguing! ;D
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yeah - even the little bit I ever saw of "The L Word" just seemed so lame to me. These were not women I wanted to spend time with, and it wasn't just about their sexuality.
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yeah - even the little bit I ever saw of "The L Word" just seemed so lame to me. These were not women I wanted to spend time with, and it wasn't just about their sexuality.
i thought the same thing about Queer As Folk.
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Starboard, I would even say that gay men are accepted by straight women more than gay women are by the same, and even more than lesbians are accepted by gay men (my experience). Gay men seem to resent the often "militant" side of lesbians, even when it is not offensive.
in terms of in real life, i think that might be true. the girl friends that I have, i do talk to them about everything. and I don't know very many lesbians that have that kind of relationships with men. but I don't know if that comes from men not accepting lesbians, or lesbians feeling no particular need to have that kind of relationship with men.
as for gay men resenting the "militant" side of lesbians, i think that's too general a statement. While at college, the community of gay and lesbians was very tight knit. In terms of activism, both communities realize that they need each other. And both community are happy to support one another in media representation. One of the most militant lesbian comic, Lea Delaria has a very strong gay male following.
yes, there are some gay men who are intimidated by the "militant" lesbians, but then again there are just as many lesbians who resent queeny gay men.
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I agree with the last bit starboard (lesbians not accepting some gay men).
Just my experience (what I said earlier) in one group in my home city in France. Maybe too general a statement indeed.
And even when I was a lesbian (thought I was only that for a while), I absolutely sought the company of men (gay, preferably). I cannot bear hanging around with only one part of humanity!
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Pretty much what little said with the caveat that most men don't believe beautiful/attractive women can really be lesbians. They feel these women just have had bad experiences with men and just need a good bang to 'turn them around'.
Yeah, I know. :P
Historically, lesbianism has been invisible because for the majority of history, women haven't had a choice in getting married or not. She was/is property and the men in her life didn't really care what her wants/needs/desires were so any relationship she had with another women, no matter how intimate, didn't matter because women's relationships with other women weren't what counted socially speaking and were going to be done away with as soon as she was given away/sold in marriage.
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Thanks for the responses guys... really interesting thoughts and points of view. ;D
I think what Celleste says rings true though.. lesbian is accepted as staright male fantasy, but in real life? Where they do couplely things and have an ordinary relationship - no, I don't think so.
So, the image of women kissing or touching each other sexually is considered titillating, whereas the general perception of men doing the same is that it's offensive.
and Star.. I guess I should admit to yes, having the fashionable accessory..and enjoying that! But I would hope that I'm more than just a 'Grace'!
Gay men are accepted by mainstream society as fashionable accessories. Every woman must have a gay best friend who will advise her on the best color for the season and will tell her if that latest hairdo will make her face look trimmer.
Mandy, on the nail.. woman as a whole generally try and make out we're more liberal than straight men..but you're right. Unfortunately.
IAnd, concerning women, I think gay men tend to me more accepted by women than lesbians. Obviously that isn't always the case, but it seems to be true a lot of the time.
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and Star.. I guess I should admit to yes, having the fashionable accessory..and enjoying that! But I would hope that I'm more than just a 'Grace'!
I imagine that "Grace" sees her "Will" for all that he is. Though I don't know. I have met plenty of "fag hags" who refuse to see Will's sexuality. I don't object to the Grace/Will dynamic, but rather I'm frustrated that the media limits them to caricatures. I don't know if it's the fault of mainstream America not wanting to accept gay men as fully human or if Hollywood think that's the case. I'll tell ya, better baby steps than no steps at all. I'm glad "Will" is there at all.
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My feeling on this issue is that lesbians are much more accepted in society than gay men as they are non-threatening to the heterosexual male and not that unlike heterosexual women in many of their relationship pursuits and nurturing habits. When was the last time you saw a lesbian gay bashed? Of course, we can't really refer to the Brandon Teena story which is not a lesbian story at all, rather a transgendered example and exists on its own terms, meaning it had as much to do with other churning factors in that little peer group as it did with her sexuality.
In the city where I reside, I see female couples holding hands everywhere, and no one bats an eye. If you are a gay male couple, try doing that outside of a certain gay mecca neighborhood and see the eyebrows--and other things--that will be raised. There's something about what gay men "do" that doesn't sit right with society. Lesbian proclivities are less threatening and don't seem as transgressive in the eyes of most.
What's interesting is how little gay men and lesbians really seem to have in common beyond the orientation issue. Gay men are raised and socialized as straight men are, and I would assume that the same is true for lesbians and straight women. This is why I have many straight male friends--we see eye to eye on many things and ways of expressing ourselves. They are sensitive and more in touch straight guys, but in many ways we are the same. On the other hand, I have much less in common with lesbians it seems. I'm making some generalizations I suppose but they are my perceptions of my own experience.
rt
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My feeling on this issue is that lesbians are much more accepted in society than gay men as they are non-threatening to the heterosexual male and not that unlike heterosexual women in many of their relationship pursuits and nurturing habits.
rt
Agreed!
Most heterosexual men are not threatened by lesbians because when they see 2 women together, they can easily tune into their "threesome" fantasies. I think in most cases, it is as simple as that. Mind you, I am not saying that this applies to all straight guys.
Also, I notice that generally-speaking, straight women are more 'accepting' of lesbians than straight guys are of gay men.
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I imagine that "Grace" sees her "Will" for all that he is. Though I don't know. I have met plenty of "fag hags" who refuse to see Will's sexuality. I don't object to the Grace/Will dynamic, but rather I'm frustrated that the media limits them to caricatures. I don't know if it's the fault of mainstream America not wanting to accept gay men as fully human or if Hollywood think that's the case. I'll tell ya, better baby steps than no steps at all. I'm glad "Will" is there at all.
I don't understand why the public has turned so vehemently against Will & Grace. It seems in so many gay corners, the show has been cheaply discarded. I no longer tune in but when it began, it was fresh and funny, and groundbreaking in its way. There's no way to take away from Sean and Megan here, they are just too talented. I know that Sean's character is what it is and the stereotype is there, but it is also a very funny and original take on that stereotype, and he is a gifted comedian.
Could it be that we just became blase on the show and it is not the show that has gone down?
rt
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Straight men only find real lesbians titillating when they'are attractive. If the women are not, then they turn up their noses and get the 'yucks' pretty quick.
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Agreed!
Most heterosexual men are not threatened by lesbians because when they see 2 women together, they can easily tune into their "threesome" fantasies. I think in most cases, it is as simple as that. Mind you, I am not saying that this applies to all straight guys.
Also, I notice that generally-speaking, straight women are more 'accepting' of lesbians than straight guys are of gay men.
I agree. Most female friends I know (unless they are serious religious) don't have a problem with either gay or lesbian relationship. We just see more gay couples around than lesbian couples (come to think of it, I really don't know any lesbian couple). In general, straight women feel less threatened on their heterosexuality by lesbian women than by other straight women. However, a lot of straight men tend to feel that their heterosexuality is threatened by homosexuality of gay men. Like it or not, the world we are in today is still dominated more by male than female. It’s my perception that lesbian is more 'socially acceptable' than gay.
There is an interesting article on CNN regarding how Lesbians' brains respond like straight men, and gay men’s brains respond like heterosexual women. Don’t know if the people here agree to it or not.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html)
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I don't understand why the public has turned so vehemently against Will & Grace. It seems in so many gay corners, the show has been cheaply discarded. I no longer tune in but when it began, it was fresh and funny, and groundbreaking in its way. There's no way to take away from Sean and Megan here, they are just too talented. I know that Sean's character is what it is and the stereotype is there, but it is also a very funny and original take on that stereotype, and he is a gifted comedian.
Could it be that we just became blase on the show and it is not the show that has gone down?
rt
I agree the show started out strong. I think the thing is that the show at its beginning was so promising as far as what's to come. but it never delivered on that. And Sean's character may have been a fresh take on the stereotype, but it never went any where. For how ever many years it's been, he's been the same Jack. That's why you don't tune in any more, and that's why the rest of us are jaded about the show. It never evolved from what it was in its first season.
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"It shows sexual orientation may very well have a different basis between men and women ... this is not just a mirror image situation"
The above was in the CNN article. I tend to agree with that statement, too.
Women do seem experience physiological sexual attractions differently than men do. I did a little non-scientific survey on that several years ago and the men and women's responses were not the same. But, the gay and straight men felt the attraction in the same location inside their bodies, near the prostate, and the women's feelings, both sexual orientations, were much higher inside themselves.
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I've never liked Will and Grace. Just never laughed much watching it.
Re: militant lesbians. They are but one of many true to life stereotypes in the gay community that are fun to talk about when we're looking at ourselves lightheartedly and laughing at some of our proclivities. I once read a whole page of gay "lightbulb" jokes in a gay magazine, the most detailed of which was "How many militant lesbian feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" The answer was 11 but I can only remember the last 6: "... 3 to argue against the image of 'screwing' in the lightbulb, 2 to refute that argument, and 1 to make brownies."
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We just see more gay couples around than lesbian couples (come to think of it, I really don't know any lesbian couple). http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html)
This could well be the case why I'm thinking a male couple is more 'socially acceptable'... I myself know only one lesbian couple.. but many more male-male couples..
Everyones comments are really interesting btw.. Partic those made by rt, partic about the city he lives in (I wont ask where - I don't want to our resident clark kent haveing to give anything away) thats scary.
My feeling on this issue is that lesbians are much more accepted in society than gay men as they are non-threatening to the heterosexual male and not that unlike heterosexual women in many of their relationship pursuits and nurturing habits. When was the last time you saw a lesbian gay bashed?
In the city where I reside, I see female couples holding hands everywhere, and no one bats an eye. If you are a gay male couple, try doing that outside of a certain gay mecca neighborhood and see the eyebrows--and other things--that will be raised. There's something about what gay men "do" that doesn't sit right with society. Lesbian proclivities are less threatening and don't seem as transgressive in the eyes of most.
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I've always thought lesbians were far more 'socially acceptable' than gay men, for the reasons that people have mentioned (but mainly I think because most of straight society are completely disgusted by anal sex basically, whereas gay female sex doesn't offend as many people) - this is my interpretation anyway, although that might just be because of the people I have come into contact with, and specifically my friends and family's feelings on the subject. However, maybe one way to work out which is the more socially acceptable is to view society's reactions to certain things e.g.
1999: Queer as Folk is shown on British terrestrial TV with fairly explicit gay sex - from what I can remember, this caused quite an uproar in the media, and their were reports of complaints etc
2002: Tipping the Velvet shown on British terrestrial TV with lesbian sex scenes this time - again, from what I remember, there was a lot of media attention surrounding this show, but more of a nudge-nudge wink-wink attitude - with the media mostly describing it as a "titillating romp" than as something offensive. This is hardly a desireable situation - lesbians wouldn't want TV to eploit them just to excite straight men, but again there was less of an angry reaction.
Then again they were spaced three years apart, so who knows how much that will have affected reactions. It is sad that in 2004, a number of Brit tabloid headlines read "Sick Sex Shown on TV" for a single, brief gay-male kiss on a pre-watershed soap. I mean, for God's sake!! Society is hardly going to crumble! But then I hate pretty much every tabloid headline... if I had my way, they would all be gone!!
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is this Corrie? and the Todd and Nick kiss?
My god, i didn't see that headline.. thats pretty disgusting. where was that?
It is sad that in 2004, a number of Brit tabloid headlines read "Sick Sex Shown on TV" for a single, brief gay-male kiss on a pre-watershed soap. I mean, for God's sake!! Society is hardly going to crumble!
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Daily Mirror, I think. They're pretty much the most homophobic tabloid right? Not that The Sun or The Mail is much better. Uch... I really hate tabloids. I'm against censorship, but I honestly think it would do us all good if they were banned.
UPDATE: Actually I was wrong, it was the Daily Star that had the "Sick Sex" front page headline on that blink-and-you'd-miss-it kiss between Nick and Todd on Corrie - Daily Mirror was actually quite supportive of it - I suppose it shouldn't be surprising, Daily Star needs all the readers it can get, so it would try to attract them with attention grabbing headlines like that.
Here's the link to the frontpage http://www.thegayvote.co.uk/weblog/archives/categories/issues_media_portrayal/index.html (http://www.thegayvote.co.uk/weblog/archives/categories/issues_media_portrayal/index.html)
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I am just bumping some old threads for the new members here. Hope you enjoy reading it.
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Thanks Jenny! This was always an interesting thread, it was nice to reread it! :)
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somebody has been doing some digging!! Thanks Jenny C!!
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Yeah, we have a lot of great discussion/sharing buried deep down. I think people who just got here may find it’s interesting to read. We have a lot of fun here, but we also have a lot of serious discussion as well.
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I am new here and havent read everything yet, but thought i would put my two bobs worth in about this question....
As discrimating as it might be, from my experience, i have seen that where two women together are NOT frowned upon, or the sex involved with them, considered unnatural, the thought of two men together is considered a taboo subject, and not considered natural.
I must say, that I myself, was in this category too, where i found it intesting and sometimes sensual to watch two women in a porno flick or a movie, I have never wanted to, or watched a gay men porno film...and not that i frowned upon it, I just didnt want to look at it, didnt want to watch two men going at it, maybe i did think it was unnatural, i dont know.
When i first saw the movie BBM I felt uncomfortable with the first tent scene...thought it could have been left out....with further viewings it became so natural to me, I actually wished i could see more, and it did turn me on...but, in saying that, I still havent wanted to go and get a gay porno movie.
I consider myself bi-curious, have had some lovely encounters with women, not a lot, but enough for me to experiment, enjoy and want it to happen again.My husband accepts it, and any friends i have told about it accept it too....But if the roles were reversed and it was my husband who was bi-curious, I dont know whether i would accept that or not, and im sure he would not be forthcoming in telling his friends about it.
I dont know why it is, it is truely a hypocritical way of thinking, i know, and yet i have always prided myself on never thinking of myself as a hypocrite...im so open minded it astounds my family and friends, and they accept me for it, so I am at a loss to why I feel this way.
Brokeback Mountain, gave me an awakening into the sexual side of gayness, and I adore and hunger for the scenes in the movie of the lovemaking, the kissing and the affection between the two boys...I wish there was more (as im sure we all do)....maybe its just Ennis and Jack that i want to see making love.
I have never thought of gay men or women as any different from straight people, I have many friends who are gay, but i have never asked or wanted to know what goes on in the bedroom....I guess because it is a bit of a mystery, is why it stays in forbidden territory...I dont like exhibitionists, whether gay or straight, and I think that when gay people act like tarts and queens in parades and mardi gras, it just adds to the intolerence of the general public.
The other reason, i just thought of about why women together may be more acceptable, is that when it is depicted in porn or movies, the girls are usually beautiful and feminine looking ladies....I wonder if the movies depicted the girls as butch would they still be fantasized over by us viewers...i think not.
Lots of double standards abound, none more than on this subject...doesnt seem to be a right and wrong, just differences of opinion, and we all have to live with our own.
Lets hope Brokeback changed a few of those opinions, and there is more understanding towards everyone....My favourite saying is.."just because something is different, doesnt mean it is wrong"....i wish more people would think of things that way.